Neil Gendzwill Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 So I was sitting on the chair last week at Big White, watching the people go by on their skis (and snowboards for that matter). I know shaped skis have helped turn that industry around, but for the majority of people do they make any difference? All I see are the same skidders and out-of-control straightliners we've always had. It seems to me most people could be on a pair of 45 m sidecut boards from 1982 and still make about the same quality of turns. Anybody with ski instruction experience care to comment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp1 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Neil, I always loved turning/carving on sticks. When the Elan SCX's first came out, I had them ASAP (and unfortunately, could carve them better than my Alpine gear at this point). Very few people on the local hill, ski's or boards) were carving or even making descent turns then. I have been off of the snow for the past 3 years. The first thing that I noticed at my local area when I came back this year, is how many people are actually making a serious attempt to carve or at least make some 'nice turns'! Yea, there's still the straightliners & sliders (sticks & boards), but the overwhelming majority of people on the snow at my local hill are making turns (or trying) some of them pretty sweet. Something I would only see from the Race Team and a hand full of others at best a few years ago. Just my observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 no ski instruction experience, but I will say getting back on skis after 20 years off was really easy with the shaped skis, and powder on reverse/reverse skis in insane...better than a snowboard in a lot of ways (yeah...I know...Blasphemy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ur13 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 All I know is shaped skis have made me want to learn to downhill ski (the only skis I've ever been on are cross-country an tele-mark gear). 25 years after I started snowboarding I plan on learning to ski next year, it looks like too much fun. I'll never stop riding alpine gear but have zero interest in snowboards that aren't alpine anymore. Skis will most likely become my preferred off-piste and no pristine groomer gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I know most people posting here would utilize the skis well, but I'm just talking about the average terminal intermediate. Do they help? Do they matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ur13 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I know most people posting here would utilize the skis well, but I'm just talking about the average terminal intermediate. Do they help? Do they matter? Skidders will skid regardless of the gear. Those who wish to learn to ski and not skid can learn to carve a turn much faster and easier than back in 1984. Those who already know how to turn, even a crude carve (said terminal intermediates), can do it much more dynamically than before. I've watch world cup ski racing for since I was a kid. Those are the top skiers in the sport and always will be. Those guys and girls could make a 2x4 turn in a clean arch I'm sure. But look at how different the courses are now-a-days, especially slalom courses. Even the classic courses that haven't changed much in the past 3-40 years...look at the lines that those top athletes can get away with. It's remarkable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call me jack Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 my mom just rode shaped skies for the first time, the other day, actually (she's be skiing since she was 12). she's no carver in our sence of the word but she said she was more comfortable making a turn regardless of circumstances. I'd say that every on on the hill, hounestly probably carves when they ride, they just don't enter the carve well. This coming from a lift operator; i watch alot of skiers and snowboarders. (i think i know how to ski just from watching it, honestly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 the average terminal intermediate. Do they help? Do they matter? I'm an average terminal intermediate snowboarder and my wife is the skier equivelant on ski's though she took 15 years off and just returned to skiing 3 years ago...Shaped ski's were most definitely good for her, she went from the wedge to carved turns in less than a day and while she has no desire to progress any further she is quite happy and capable on her shaped ski's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I'm shopping for skis right now. I demoed some Fischer Progressor 9s at Whistler last year and I couldn't wipe the grin off my face. I am leaning towards Volkl Tiger Sharks right now though. Last pair of skis I owned were Rossignol 4SKs in 205cm. So for this guy, shaped skis are bringing me back. And to answer the OP, I see some great carving out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Like Ur13 said, they matter if you want to. I was on skis again for the first time in 15 years last year and I will say they made a huge difference. Yes, my carving background helped, to me alot of the machanics are the same. I was able to keep up with some incredible local skiers in Sun Valley and one of them didnt beleive me when I told how long I had been off skis. That said, I still have a ways to go off piste or in bumps, but I am having tons of fun like I never did before. And yes I can get over almost as far as my board. Like boards, people need to get the right tools for their abilities which may be part of the problem, take lessons etc. Rossi Z11 with Nordica speedmachine boots. Works for me. Like Skategoat, last pair I had were the Rossi 4SK and there is NO comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeW Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I got Rossignol Scratch (the one with silo of bewbs) 177, and I'm perfectly happy with the sidecut radius of the skis. However, I tried the Lib Tech NAS 177 2010 model (I'm still patriotic with Lib Tech), and I really do like the skis. Only thing I'm not sure about is the sidecut radius as compared to my Rossi Scratch. But I'll be buying it regardless this coming fall. :) Anyways, back to the subject, I would say YES, they DO matter, because of the learning curve has gone up as well as the revival of the ski industry (it was in a rut for too long with those... god-forsaken straight skis). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Glynn Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 So I was sitting on the chair last week at Big White, watching the people go by on their skis (and snowboards for that matter). I know shaped skis have helped turn that industry around, but for the majority of people do they make any difference? All I see are the same skidders and out-of-control straightliners we've always had. It seems to me most people could be on a pair of 45 m sidecut boards from 1982 and still make about the same quality of turns.Anybody with ski instruction experience care to comment? As a ski instructor ( former instructor, but that is another story) I have found that the shaped ski is much easier for the students to turn but over all they really have no clue how to use them. The biggest hurdle for them is their lack of desire to go fast( or their fear of speed) so consequently they will skid the beginning and end of every turn and only carve the middle. They also have a hard time getting the ski away from them and not just standing over it. If the desire is truly there they can pick it up. Once they recognize the feel they are up and running. Most people that take lessons don't seem to have the desire to learn to carve a ski they are totally happy skidding and making smooth round smear turns. Most skiers don't take lessons and are even more clueless as to how to use a shaped ski. They have no idea what wonderful tools they have on their feet. Bottom line is that everything is easier on a shaped ski. They are so fun in all respects, even for those who will never know how to really use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomoto Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Anybody with ski instruction experience care to comment? I didn't even take the time to read the replies yet but...F--- YEAH IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE!!! How about I put you on an alpine board with no side cut? Does that sound fun to you? lol Modern skis (and boots) make a huge difference. I actually think some of the credit should go to snowboards. I remember watching people carving up the hill on snowboards. I was jealous! BTW I was a level 2 certified instructor and would of, could of, should of easily been level 3 but I stopped instructing when we had our first child. I'm primarily a skier also. Most my days are spent leaving two trenches in the snow behind me, so I feel qualified to answer the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomoto Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Neil, I always loved turning/carving on sticks. When the Elan SCX's first came out, I had them ASAP (and unfortunately, could carve them better than my Alpine gear at this point). Very few people on the local hill, ski's or boards) were carving or even making descent turns then.One of the problems with the equipment back before the SCX is that you had to have some speed before the skis would work with their limited sidecuts. The other problem was that many of them couldn't handle the speed. If you want to carve like you are on alpine gear get a set of true race stock Elan SLX skis. They have a 12m radius and hold both edges (yes, you have to use both skis) like there is no tomorrow. They are really stout, yet they don't feel stiff. Pretty amazing skis for carving. The boots have changed dramatically also. If you were to compare a race stock boot from say 2000, to a 3-4 year old race stock boot of equal flex, you would be amazed at how much softer the forward flex is. They allow you to stay centered on the ski even when your ankles are flexed. The days of working the front of a ski are gone. The shape does all of the work. Okay, sorry...I got all worked up there. I get excited about carving anything on snow. I'll chill out now. But before I do, I will drop one last piece of info for anyone who is interested in high level carving on skis. YOU HAVE TO USE THE INSIDE SKI! To do it well, the inside ski must engage first and then pull the outside ski through the turn. You want to reduce counter and tip lead as much as possible. I liken it to a fulcrum where the the outside of your body rotates through the trun around the axis of your inside hip. The focus is on the inside hip and you use the inside ankle and knee to create the angles for what ever trun you want to carve (don't bank.) If you know how to put pressure and ride the outside edge of the inside ski at turn initiation, you will be able to carve turns much like you do on an alpine board. It's really, really cool too. :) I bet I could teach an alpine carver how to lay out some really dynamic double carves pretty quickly. I think the movement paterns are very similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The difference now is that you can fall asleep on skis today and still carve, try that on a heavily cambered straight ski 215 cm long and you will end up going straight to the hospital. :sleep: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotbeans Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Dont want to 'jack this thread, but I've been considering getting a pair of bump/tree ski's.. anyone with recommendations? I see some skier's carving..man, does it look boring. I'm opting for the mogul launches and chinese pinball through the trees! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik J Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 So I was sitting on the chair last week at Big White, watching the people go by on their skis (and snowboards for that matter). I know shaped skis have helped turn that industry around, but for the majority of people do they make any difference? All I see are the same skidders and out-of-control straightliners we've always had. It seems to me most people could be on a pair of 45 m sidecut boards from 1982 and still make about the same quality of turns.Anybody with ski instruction experience care to comment? I have heard quite a few times from people that buy shaped skis that they were expecting the ski to take their abilities to another level. But those same people don't seem to want to put in any effort to learn how to use them so they trash talk the ski as being a fad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 How about I put you on an alpine board with no side cut? Does that sound fun to you?To roughly 90% of the snowboarders I see, I'll bet it wouldn't make much difference. They'd just slide the tail back and forth like normal, and sideslip anything over 15 degrees. Again, I'm not talking about the skilled riders, such as most of the posters on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiomoto Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 Oh, I get your point now and I agree. Yeah, about 90% snowboarders I see suck too. lol That said, I think shaped skis do help most skiers to some degree. They want to turn...even in wedge turns. They work even if you're not carving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I think it makes a huge difference where you go. At destination ski resorts, where most people only ski a couple of weeks a year, nothing much has changed. At smaller local places where many people ski every week, the change to carving has been very noticeable. It has taken a few years to catch on because unless skiers see other skiers carving, they have no idea what carving is. Two seasons ago, I would notice a skier carving well, now They hardly stand out, there's so many. It also makes a difference if there is a strong racing program at the ski area, which again allows skiers to see carving and want to try it. It's only a five years or so since the new generation carving skis like the Metron and Scrambler were introduced. So it's taken a while for people to find out what they can do on these skis. The annoying part of this is that the progress was too slow for the manufacturers and they have dulled down the carvability of their skis with larger side cuts. BobD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 I jumped back on a pair of skis and after about 5 hours of riding absolutely love the shaped stick. I am now 33 and the last time I was on skis I was 15. I find that I can really engage the edge better than most and know for a fact that the riding the alpine board for the last 15+ years makes all the difference. Engaging an edge (or two) is definately a skill not all can achieve. Some posts have eluded to the fact that 90% of snowboarders can't carve and the same goes for skiers. I have a lot to learn on the skis but after only a few hours being able to lay down "train tracks" in the snow has everything to do with the fact I can carve a snowboard. And now I can conclude that riding a race board is much more difficult than laying tracks on a pair of skis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 And now I can conclude that riding a race board is much more difficult than laying tracks on a pair of skis. It's interesting that on alpine boards the heel side is the stronger turn (once you figure it out). When carving on skis, both side are like heel side turns in terms of angulation. The main problem for skiers is that they are used to steering the skis, which requires the skis to be flat. Comming from snowboards, even if you don't carve on snowboards, you are used to letting the sidecut do the turning. BobD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 YOU HAVE TO USE THE INSIDE SKI! To do it well, the inside ski must engage first and then pull the outside ski through the turn. You want to reduce counter and tip lead as much as possible. Great tip! That's exactelly where it is! As the side benefit, once your inner ski is solidly engaged, it is almost imposible to blow out of the carve. Even if your outer bounced of, or you lost your ballance, your COG is so close to the inner edge it has to keep railing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The main problem for skiers is that they are used to steering the skis, which requires the skis to be flat. So true! I totally reviewed my ski carving after I learned alpine board. My transitions have been a lot cleaner ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_roboteye Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 The annoying part of this is that the progress was too slow for the manufacturers and they have dulled down the carvability of their skis with larger side cuts.BobD I could not agree more, I have many, many pairs of skis, but I honestly wouldn't buy almost all of the newer skis, because generally speaking they have SCR's that are way too tight for how fast I like to ski. The smallest radius I'm comfortable on is around 17 metres. For fast cruising, around 26 metres. I also agree that there is a lot of really bad skiing out there, but the funny part is that the people doing it think they're pretty good. later, Dave R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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