Why are boards getting wider?

[Jack M]

But I have an idea.

Jack, I assume and really hope you come to the SES/World Carving Session. (You skipped the last one already and said you would come to the next one again right?)

Pogo, I think you are coming right?

So you two can go ride together and show each other the “right” style ;) I will follow you guys with my skinny Cyborg and play judge as well, oh wait, there is nothing to judge because you are both highly skilled riders with your own style :D

Haha. I will have to win the lottery to make it to any SES in the foreseeable future. :(

I'm not saying what's the right way to carve. But there is a better way to handle ice. And I mean real ice. There would be no point in having a "carve-off" in Aspen or anywhere west of the Mississippi, it would be like pro baseball players having a home run derby in a town little-league field. I don't mean that to be snobby (in fact I'm jealous), it's just not challenging enough. Maybe on <del>Ruthies</del> <i>Aztec</i>, but still, hero snow is not the best place to judge skill.

[BlueB]

For me width + bigger nose = versatility. We ride a lot of variable conditions here at coastal mountins, so an AM type of board is always in the car. It would be accompanied with a pow stick or a carver, depending on what conditions I expect.

In despite of my small feet, I never liked 18 waist (funny enough, I do like Skwal). 18 is kinda no man's teritory for me. For carving, my prefered angles are in high 50'. However, I can and do ride as low as 50/40. For versatility I like even a bit wider then "normal" 21.5 AM board, more of 22-22.5 width. I plan to try few sub 18 boards this season, too.

[Ray]

Haha. I will have to win the lottery to make it to any SES in the foreseeable future. :(

I'm not saying what's the right way to carve. But there is a better way to handle ice. And I mean real ice. There would be no point in having a "carve-off" in Aspen or anywhere west of the Mississippi, it would be like pro baseball players having a home run derby in a town little-league field. I don't mean that to be snobby (in fact I'm jealous), it's just not challenging enough. Maybe on Ruthies, but still, hero snow is not the best place to judge skill.

Oh man, Jack, sorry to hear you’re not coming, really!

You know me, I am the last who would even mention a “carve off” since I am a strong believer that nobody could win anyway (at your skill level)… you know what I mean...btw, Ruthie’s is kinda out, we leave Ruthies to the beginners these days and use it to get over to Aztek ;)

Cheers! All good, just fun

[Jack M]

Oh man, Jack, sorry to hear you’re not coming, really!

Yeah, it's tough with two small kids and season passes and ski school to go anywhere else even by myself. Forget about flying anywhere.

You know me, I am the last who would even mention a “carve off” since I am a strong believer that nobody could win anyway (at your skill level)… you know what I mean...btw, Ruthie’s is kinda out, we leave Ruthies to the beginners these days and use it to get over to Aztek ;)

Cheers! All good, just fun

Oh right, Aztek is what I meant. Just looked at the map. Now that's a pitch.

[Ernie00]

Great info.. no need to fight guys ! But I know for a fact having visited colorado twice.. hero snow does what it's suppose to do.. make you ride like hero!

it's a great tread and we need more technical discussions like this ! Of course a lot of people will have different opinions and that is great ! just more info.

I'm thinking of getting a new board and my current coiler RC T 180 18.8 is GREAT ! I love it.. I also love my madd 170. I want something different to ride so I have been considering a 188 x 21.5 or 23 from bruce. but I'm having a hard time with the 23 even if I understand all the logic...it's more of a psychological thing I guess.

[Dave ESPI]

I'm not saying what's the right way to carve. But there is a better way to handle ice. And I mean real ice. There would be no point in having a "carve-off" in Aspen or anywhere west of the Mississippi, it would be like pro baseball players having a home run derby in a town little-league field... but still, hero snow is not the best place to judge skill.

Im going to wholeheartedly agree here.

I am also going to Aspen this year (paycheck prevailing with favorable winds) to see what if any real difference there can be gained in riding it and comparing.

Ive seen superb riders from outwest with noteriety and clout come to the northeast and have no idea how to deal with our conditions or how to ride and make it look fairly astute on the same level as many of us here on the east coast do daily. Realisticly....... we get 5-10 days a year in the Northeast of "perfect" conditions for carving.

I really look forward to laying down a stiffy at around 50mph and not worrying if I'm going to chatter out and lose edgehold and become a sliding "X" on my arse or belly untill I slow enough to regain directional control or am stopped by race fence(or worse)....... LOL.

I'm going to slap my TD2's on my Rozzi twin tip 163 this winter just for kicks and see what I can do.

Pryzmk/Brooklyn: Ive seen you ride........... Stick with the Euro style... you make it look sexy...... Before you bust a tib/fib....leave the jibbing and spinning to the soft-boot Bandana-apes.

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

Pryzmk/Brooklyn: Ive seen you ride........... Stick with the Euro style... you make it look sexy...... Before you bust a tib/fib....leave the jibbing and spinning to the soft-boot Bandana-apes.

I am not going to stop laying it down dont get me wrong, i just want to add a little more spice to it. In the end of last seson i started to hiting 360s between tottaly layed down turs and got a kick out of this. Want to do more stuff like that this seson. Come to Windham some weekend lets ride together.

[Dave ESPI]

Still have our # from lastseason lying around here........... definately. I have a few races comming up @ hunter, and hopefully @ your home mountain also.

Will be good times. Will enjoy riding with ya, and ripping there again.........

Just need to get my ski buddy Kris up to speed on a board so he can rip with us. He can lay steeps hard on skis and do sharp cuts, but notihng like us.

Feel free to travel to Albany and join me @ Jiminy anytime too!

[Rob Stevens]

Bottom up? Top down?

There was a great thread on this last year, but I think it's been deleted, along with most threads WilliamBlake starred in.

Seems to me that coordinated movement of the joints in individual legs happens at the same time, not one after the other. A turn would have to very long to separate out the individual flexion / extension moments between knee, ankle and foot. Think about it.

Admittedly, the mental separation of movement in the individual joints can be important to understanding and initiating these actions, but once you are past a basic stage, things should happen simultaneously. You turn the wheel and the tyres turn together, not a second later. That would be bad.

Between front and back legs, you can experience some lag, as the timing of movements at the rear of the board may happen later. Importantly, front/ real leg mirrored movements don't occur all the time. There are situations when joints front and rear might do the exact opposite of each other, like a heel turn where the front knee may stay rotationally committed forward, while the rear knee moves back, centering over the rear foot. This move is the polar opposite of "knees together" riding and IMO is critical for rough terrain free carving / riding.

The rotation technique, where an elastic sensataion of the waist, steering the lower limbs, after the torso has turned in a new direction, is very basic. This is what CASI (for better or worse) teaches beginners. I would say that the riders here, using rotation after many years would not, under video scrutiny, be doing that. Rather, the movement would happen in concert with actions taken in the lower body. I will say that if you had to choose between rotation and steering (where the body, from the core down turns the board), rotation would be the first to go, exposing it as more of a stylistic choice, rather than being done out of mechanical necessity.

The clear examle is very fast, short turns, where the torso above the core may remain constantly "anticipated", or "still" to the fall line.

As for the debate over the technique yielding the superior results, there are too many factors at play to ever make that call. Ray said that "there are no right or wrong styles of carving." To that, I will add that there are only "consequences" of your choice.

I'm stoked how any thread, no matter how it starts, can wind up here.

[RCrobar]

Great post Rob, it has inspired me to throw a few thoughts at you.

The clear example is very fast, short turns, where the torso above the core may remain constantly "anticipated", or "still" to the fall line.

I have to agree here.

I will say that if you had to choose between rotation and steering (where the body, from the core down turns the board), rotation would be the first to go, exposing it as more of a stylistic choice, rather than being done out of mechanical necessity.

I don’t fully agree with this statement, but have to admit I am in the process of understanding how the mechanics of the rotation make the rotation an important movement. IMHO it is definitely NOT a wasted motion; sorry Jack, we will have to agree to disagree:)

A clear example of this, in my experience, is when trying to do the same tight steering tight turns, that you described, off piste in rough West Coast conditions, moguls, steep chop, Western Cement, etc., I have found that when turning the board with a quiet upper body it is much more difficult to eliminate counter rotations when compared to rotating in the same conditions. When rotating, I have found that it is much easier to all but eliminate counter rotations, which leads to more control.

The control gained when doing rotation turns in very rough conditions, off piste moguls, etc. makes me believe that there is in fact a mechanical necessity or perhaps a better way to say this is a mechanical 'trade off' when turning with a quiet upper body vs a rotation. The trade off I have found, off piste, is that when you rotate you may loose speed and quickness but you may gain stability and control.

A rider that has both turns in his/her bag of tricks, to be called upon depending on their mood or situation, gives them the best of both worlds. It seems more constructive to point out the positives of a given technique rather than trying to prove that one is superior to the other, the latter seems to always end badly.

For the record, I am NOT for a second trying to claim any absolutes here, I have NOT found the sorcerers stone;). Please don’t take this too seriously, as I don’t.

Cheers

PS - Jack, could you pull a few strings and get Fin to post a new TD3 teaser picture?

[Dave ESPI]

FOr arguement sake...... I'm really looking forward to F-ing myself up with trying the "no-fall Snowboarding" style; and seeing how if at all it works for carving........... somehow C.O.G. and N.B.P. still remains constant in relation to speed and mass and angle of attack as far as I see it, hopefully on pure ice and crap conditions, I hope to somehow become a guru with such and devlop an ICE-Coast Stance style, and then have a frame of referance for EAST/WEST fights.... (rolleyes).

3 weeks away from good IN-snowtime..... just think about getting out and ripping anyway you can and want ..

J U S T

H A V E

F U N !

[pogokoenig]

FWIW:

... Not that that is the only proper way to carve. Top-down and/or cross-over carving can be lots of fun when conditions allow. The best carvers know how to do both. Carvers who only know top-down haven't mastered the sport yet.

...

I completely agree upon that.

I say anything that works out is allowed. And as Max stated, there is not a one and only way. I just wanted to make this sure.

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

My kid did that when he was 10 years old on his Nidecker slalom board. Marcus Beck in his prime was doing 720 in the pipe on his F2 and Skwal. Snow Performance Sean does and Greenwood ruled the pipe on his narrow race boards. So, you don't need wide boards for freestyling.

I am not saying it is imposible to do, (360 it is very easy basic trick) but doing it on wider board and low angles are just so much easier and dont feel so akward.It is just more fun to do this on wider deck.

I bet your 10 years old kid lerned it on freestyle set up and then did it on slalom board.

i was "stuck" on racing boards, flat tails and high angles for years, so i never explored freestyle elements (probably the same story for most people on this forum) I was dedicated to carving only.

Now riding feels much more fun, carving turns (i dont think i could give up on that) mixed with some freestyle elements in between.

I would call it "freestyle carving"

[inkaholic]

I would call it "freestyle carving"

I always called it "Freakstyle". Who else is going to do it but us freaks on hardboots?

See my avatar - Hot blast 170, 18cm waist, snopros at about 65/62 and UPZ's in the mid to late 90's.

Ink

[Neil Gendzwill]

For those of us who venture off the groomed - I think lower stance angles let you get that board from edge to edge quicker when you are not carving. I'm thinking steeps, bumps, etc. here.

[RCrobar]

I agree with you Neil. Your statement reminded me of a thread from a while ago.

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=17530

Boostertwo did a great job of elaborating on this, here is his post:

I

don't dispute that wider boards are more frequently used by racers, but I'm not sure I understand this statement. Wouldn't a narrower board (w/ resulting higher stance angles) allow for faster edge-to-edge transitions?

It seems to me one other reason that slightly wider boards are being used is that a lower stance angle allows for bigger and more powerful pivoting movements. While pivoting is generally detrimental to carving (as it can result in skidding, scrubbing speed), when the course requires it most successful racers are able to pivot their unweighted boards in the transition, and to 'lock on' to a carve to maintain a fast line. It has been my experience that lower angles are much better than high ones for these pivoting, 'leg scissoring' moves.

You can feel this for yourself by standing up now, as you read this. Try standing with very high stance angles and then then try stepping your feet to move your legs through this pivoting move. I think you'll find that higher angles allow a smaller range of movement than lower angles. Lower angles also recruit stronger muscle groups and allow for further pivoting movement through using the knee as a hinge to 'sweep' the foot.

Not only does this result in quicker, stronger, accurate movements, it also results in better balance, as it seems that riders with extremely high angles have to make additional movements of the upper body to get the board around, resulting in imbalance and a jerky, edge-of-control look to their turns.

It seems that for these biomechanical reasons (larger range of movement from the ball-and-socket joint in the hip, using stronger muscle groups, and, when necessary, using the knee/ankles to further sweep the board) that slightly wider boards are more useful whenever the course requires pivoting moves. If you're free riding, lower angles are useful in situations where you might need to quickly, powerfully, and accurately pivot the board, such as bumps, trees, steeps, crowded slopes, etc.

[JJFluff]

I believe.....

That turns start at the core, although the upper body does have much to do with initiating, maintaining, and finishing a turn. But, when done correctly the rotation is not very noticable or detectable.

Starting from the ankle up is like saying the car turns without first turning the steering wheel. At the same time, you don't want any "play" in your steering wheel either. Meaning, when the upper body moves, the core moves with it, allowing the legs to be put in a powerful, balanced, and athletic position.

The upper body needs to be put in the right position so that when the effective edge is engaged the lower body can be positioned correctly to hold the edge.

[Gecko]

need to get JG to weigh in on this

[bobdea]

I believe.....

That turns start at the core, although the upper body does have much to do with initiating, maintaining, and finishing a turn. But, when done correctly the rotation is not very noticable or detectable.

Starting from the ankle up is like saying the car turns without first turning the steering wheel. At the same time, you don't want any "play" in your steering wheel either. Meaning, when the upper body moves, the core moves with it, allowing the legs to be put in a powerful, balanced, and athletic position.

The upper body needs to be put in the right position so that when the effective edge is engaged the lower body can be positioned correctly to hold the edge.

when you separate your knees you'll be allowed to comment!!!!!!!!!!!

[JJFluff]

when you separate your knees you'll be allowed to comment!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't, I had them fused together over the summer. Now I am going to really rip this winter!

[Ray]

Haha. I will have to win the lottery to make it to any SES in the foreseeable future. :(

Jack, actually thinking about it, I feel you are not committing enough. You know, life is too short and to let such an event pass by again is one of those things you will sure regret in a few years when your body isn’t able anymore to shred like 20 year old. Especially somebody like you, who has such a passion for our sport! I really hope you will consider and somehow make it possible. Also, your wife is probably happy to get rid of you for a few days and, she knows you have a blast with the boys. What we all need!

Cheers!

[bobdea]

I can't, I had them fused together over the summer. Now I am going to really rip this winter!

lol, get a asym for extra points!

[carvedog]

A clear example of this, in my experience, is when trying to do the same tight steering tight turns, that you described, off piste in rough West Coast conditions, moguls, steep chop, Western Cement, etc., I have found that when turning the board with a quiet upper body it is much more difficult to eliminate counter rotations when compared to rotating in the same conditions. When rotating, I have found that it is much easier to all but eliminate counter rotations, which leads to more control.

Interesting. I think I do the same thing RC., but to me it seems like the move still comes from the feet up even though it is subtle, it still starts with the feet even though my whole body tends to sweep with the board with arms spread fairly wide and higher.

I do ride everything on plates from a burton canyon, FPs, Burners and my Frontier 185. Angles range from 67/70 to 30/35 which feels sideways after running forward at 67

So, you don't need wide boards for freestyling.

i was "stuck" on racing boards, flat tails and high angles for years, so i never explored freestyle elements (probably the same story for most people on this forum) I was dedicated to carving only.

Now riding feels much more fun, carving turns (i dont think i could give up on that) mixed with some freestyle elements in between.

I would call it "freestyle carving"

Definitely agree with the more "fun" of riding the wider board. I will charge off into things on my Frontier or the Canyon and know I can surf it out without having to do 40 to get it to turn.

I still live for the rush of the high speed, cranked carve when I can get it. When not the freestyle carve works great and you can do it at 20 when you need to instead of mach super fast.

[carvedog]

Carvedog:

Wrong quote! Me thinks the quote algorithm is broken....... I don't subscribe to wider is more fun hypothesis.

I guess those guys and girls on super wide boards, because of their big feet, that are slow edge to edge are having more fun. Yeah Right!

Bola

Methinks I fouled that up cut and paste style. So sorry.

Definitely not more fun, and certainly not on super wides. Besides the slow edge to edge, I have not found one that was torsionally stiff enough to handle the torque my not-small physique can apply to board. In other words they wobble like a weeble and you have to feather the edge pretty carefully to prevent full blow out. The Canyon 173 starts to act this way for sure.

On the 185, I am riding at about 45 on both. It is more relaxing and forgiving, sometimes that is a good thing. So that is my reference for relaxed angles. Not super wide stuff.