Why are boards getting wider?

[bumpyride]

I'll have to go with the best balanced position is the position that you end up in when you run down an icy slope and glide to a stop. Look at your feet and they will naturally end up in the most stable position. That's of course if you can slide down an icy slope without falling-Oh I guess there's no more balanced position than flat on your face or butt. 66/45 for me.

This may not be the most conducive position for carving, but it works for bumps.

Jon Dahl, I have a bunch of thinner boards you're welcome to try out if we hook up this year. Thanks for the compliment. Makes me feel better after busting a rib last year.

[carvedog]

Please define "ankle leverage".

Dave R.

Don't want to speak for Jack but I thought he was right on here.

The ability to tip the board onto edge more by using ankle flexion to generate the angles.

Or the ability of the lower leg to generate leverage by articulating the ankle joint, due to being angled more to the 0 axis ( 90 being the nose of the board).

The closer you are to 90 the less effect inline ankle and knee movements affect the angle of the board. The more you have to push laterally with knees to cause tipping of the board off the snow.

Well sh!t I know what he means even if I can't say it too well.

[rocketman]

The wider the board the more leverage required to put it on edge (think of how little leverage is required to put a ski on edge). Wider boards can have lower angles to accommodate the increased leverage required.

As Mr. Roboteye said, if your boots are at the limits of "bootout" the leverage will feel the same.

The big factor is how your knees contribute to your ride. If you are on a skwal you won't change the board's angulation when you flex your knees - they flex forward. Angulation/steering is soley acheived with your waist/hips (and lean angle of course). If you are on a soft board with a "duck" stance (-15, +15) your knees change the angulation dramatically. The more you bend your knees the less angulation you get.

The higher the binding angles the less effect bending your knees will have on angulation/steering.

Everyone will have a comfort zone based on their method to "steer" the board. If you find it hard to bend "sideways at the hip" to achieve angulation with high (55+) binding angles you will bend more with your stomoch requiring lower binding angles...a wider board.

I find it more stable to angulate/steer with my waist and obsorb the bumps with my knees independantly. Just like a car, turning and obsorbing bumps are indendant tasks. (184 Coiler PR, 18cm waist, 62/60)

[queequeg]

It's simple. Wider boards = more moderate angles = more ankle leverage = better balance = more stable.

But that doesn't mean that we should all be riding barn doors at 0/0. It's just more likely that a stance angle somewhere between 45 and 60 (closer to 60, imo) will give you the most balance.

Speaking in terms of ankles (not knees) and leverage from there:

A wider board will act as a longer lever against your ankle joint pivot, thereby decreasing mechanical advantage on the toeside, and slightly increasing it on the heelside. This would have a much bigger effect on the toeside than it does on the heelside. I doubt board width has much effect on heelside turns, since the edge tends to be right at your heels regardless of board width.

My guess is that a wider board's advantage would not be increased leverage, but rather, the ability to effectively lengthen/shorten the reach of your toeside edge by a greater distance, given the same amount of ankle flexion/extension on a narrower board. With a wider board, you get greater travel/control of the toeside edge for less ankle flexion. This should result in a more stable ride, particularly over irregular terrain ... rutted up race courses come to mind. I would imagine this might contribute to dramatically increased control of toeside arc radius.

Obviously lower angles bring the knees further into play for setting edges against the snow surface (rather than the hips), but I think they actually represent a mechanical disadvantage in the ankle.

Although lower angles will decrease mechanical advantage on the toeside, you get more control of your toeside edge and can control your board angulation more precisely, which seems like a decent tradeoff given sufficient lower-leg strength. I've always imagined the disadvantage of wider boards to be somewhat decreased control of fore-aft weight distribution; your toe to heel goes more across the boards centerline than up and down it. It seems to me that the sweet spot balancing both issues is between 57 and 65.

[Steve Prokopiw]

'cause PEOPLE are getting wider.Just kidding;er well...For me wider was good for a few years but then turned out to be the cause of my meniscus problems.changing from 25.4 freeride board width down to 19.5 while using my preferred angles or close to them made possible a high edge angle without undue lateral stress to my knees.The higher stance angles won out as a priority over a wide board.What's known here as Gilmour bias has also helped me over the years when it comes to plates on a wider board.I will eventually settle as high as 22 cm on an all mountain custom,but the ride of a semi narrow board in certain conditions will mean that there will always be at least one narrow board in my quiver..

[Bullwings]

exactly. you wouldn't know, because you've never tried them.

and since you're never going to, why bother asking.

stupid question.

and an even stupider answer by me. wooohooo:lol::lol::lol:

[pogokoenig]

The better you get at carving, the more you realize how important it is to be able to carve "from the ground up". This means changing edges starting with your toes, then ankles, then knees, then hips, etc. This is opposed to the practice of making big upper body movements and arm gesticulations. Carving this way allows you to be more dynamic and fluid, and it improves your ability to maintain and recover balance.

Where do you get all this wisdom from? I have noticed, that anytime, when it comes to riding technique, you behave like you have found the sourcerers stone. And anytime I read this i can you give you at least one example that proves the opposite.

Same here: Carving from the "the ground up" might be working for you. But what if i say, you can start a carve with your head or your arms. And believe me, that works really good and provides a lot of fun.

Back to Topic: It's a matter of taste. And I don't really see a tendency for wider boards but a diversification and more different models.

[Istvan]

Tend to agree with Pogo... it is not that everyone goes wide or should go wide. In my opinion it is more about having a wider selection of alpine boards available nowadays for different styles and purposes.

14-18 cm for quick turns and quick edge to edge time, around 20 cm for GS and SL in WC, and 21-23 for more relaxed styles and EC.

Is one better than the other? Nope. Depends on purpose of use and personal preference.

For example I like narrow and lively boards on nicely groomed not too steep hard pack, and like wider, über-damp boards on really steep ones for EC. And I actually hate it the other way around. A wide, damp board can be very boring on a groomed blueish, redish run, and a long and narrow stick can be quite challenging on a very steep slope with icy spots and some soft moguls. There I would much rather have my X-treme with me.

Only my 0.02$.

[Ray]

:D

[patmoore]

I've wondered the same thing. Two very good racers visited our NASTAR venue at Okemo last year. One was on a fairly wide board and the other a narrow Virus. The two riders were about the same size and both laid down some impressive times, certainly faster than anything I could match.

I ride a RennTiger 168 with a waist width of 19cm. My boots are 28.5 mondo and I fabricated a lifter to prevent boot-out. I'm at a loss as to go with a wider or narrower board or just learn to improve my riding on the existing platform. I had a cant on the rear binding that directed my knee forward and elevated the heel but my right knee is so far out of whack after three surgeries that it's inclined 5.5 degrees inward on its own. I now have the binding flat. I've experimented with binding angles but feel more comfortable with the boots oriented more toward the nose than across the board.

Help me out here. When referring to "low angles" are we talking about the boots aimed more in line with the nose of the board? When discussing angles like 50 degrees, does that refer to 50 degrees off the perpendicular or off the nose?

[Istvan]

What happened Ray, you don't use words anymore, only small icons? I think I should try this in my office with my colleagues.....

[tex1230]

Help me out here. When referring to "low angles" are we talking about the boots aimed more in line with the nose of the board? When discussing angles like 50 degrees, does that refer to 50 degrees off the perpendicular or off the nose?

angles are measured from the lline across the waist, perpendicular to the length of the board. toes pointed straight acrosss the board of Zero degrees, Toes pointed at the nose (like on a skwal) is 90 degrees.

so 50 degrees is slightly (5 degrees) past halfway between the two, more toward the nose.

[Jack M]

Where do you get all this wisdom from? I have noticed, that anytime, when it comes to riding technique, you behave like you have found the sourcerers stone.

FWIW:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/tech_articles.cfm

http://www.jmphotocraft.com/profile/jm_bol_profile.htm

And anytime I read this i can you give you at least one example that proves the opposite.

Same here: Carving from the "the ground up" might be working for you. But what if i say, you can start a carve with your head or your arms. And believe me, that works really good and provides a lot of fun.

Are we having a language barrier problem? I said "how important it is to be able to carve from the ground up". Not that that is the only proper way to carve. Top-down and/or cross-over carving can be lots of fun when conditions allow. The best carvers know how to do both. Carvers who only know top-down haven't mastered the sport yet.

But your statement proves nothing. Ground-up technique will always be better on ice because it keeps your upper body more still and balanced. If you don't have to deal with real ice then ride however you want.

[Gecko]

My problem with wider boards is for better or worse I often drive from the back seat, too wide a board is hard to make turn from a surfy position such as I often use. I spent most of the off season working on correcting this problem on a Slalom Skateboard but when all was said and done I think I just learned more about how to control my direction better when I get late on turns. I agree with Jack that turning starts from the bottom but I don't neccessarily agree that in requires shallow angles to acheive, then again I'm currently riding at 54f48r on a 18.8cm board so who knows

[Phil]

Same here: Carving from the "the ground up" might be working for you. But what if i say, you can start a carve with your head or your arms. And believe me, that works really good and provides a lot of fun.

No matter how you are riding, everything starts at the Earth. Even if you are turning your head and shoulders into the turn, you are still starting with an opposite movement in your lower legs. The movement has to start and/or be counteracted somewhere.

Head and shoulder moves are quite common. The question is whether you are looking for a certain feeling in your riding, are you looking to be the fastest through a race course, are you looking to have a "look" to your riding, or are you looking to have efficient and effective riding? I am sure this model will break down in a lot of areas, but it is almost like a continuum:

Race...Effic./Effect...Feel....Look

I hope that makes sense. I think that people that are going for the feel and look are going to make more gross body movements and you will see this in the shoulders more. People who are looking to be efficient and effective in all situations will tend to keep the movements lower on the chain. Racers will be able to do anything and everything as necessary, although they will tend to lean toward the efficiency effectiveness end of things whenever they can.

It is obvious to me that Jack pushes the efficiency/effectiveness side of hardbooting. I don't think that there is any reason to get upset about that. Try to understand where he is coming from before getting out the torch.

[Jack M]

My problem with wider boards is for better or worse I often drive from the back seat, too wide a board is hard to make turn from a surfy position such as I often use.

I'm not talking about super wide carving boards, I've never used a modern board over 21cm wide. A friend here who's abilities I respect demo'd a Swoard and couldn't return it fast enough. So I'm not exactly rushing to try one myself. I will someday.

I agree with Jack that turning starts from the bottom but I don't neccessarily agree that in requires shallow angles to acheive, then again I'm currently riding at 54f48r on a 18.8cm board so who knows

54/48 would be what I consider quite shallow (low) angles for carving. On my Madd 158 (18cm) I'm up around 66/66. I can still do a mean cross-under like that, but on my Coiler 170 (21cm) I'm at about 57/57, and I know the extra ankle leverage helps my overall riding.

And... what Phil said.

[Gecko]

I've been at higher angles my knees just don't like it, I try every year and after a run or two I revert to something approaching what I have now. So I guess I agree with what you said more than I realized. I swear most carving people and racers for that matter would do much better if they spent off season time crashing cones:eplus2:

[Ray]

What happened Ray, you don't use words anymore, only small icons? I think I should try this in my office with my colleagues.....

Istvan, its fun to read but this is probably going nowhere, as most times. I know too many really good riders and everybody has their own style. Styles with no names. At a certain skill level there is no right or wrong in style anymore for carving. Riding with fellow carvers from all around the world proves that.

So when I read some like this:

Not that that is the only proper way to carve. Top-down and/or cross-over carving can be lots of fun when conditions allow. The best carvers know how to do both. Carvers who only know top-down haven't mastered the sport yet. Ground-up technique will always be better on ice because it keeps your upper body more still and balanced.

I have no words and rather get the popcorn and listen in...

Cheers!

But I have an idea.

Jack, I assume and really hope you come to the SES/World Carving Session. (You skipped the last one already and said you would come to the next one again right?)

Pogo, I think you are coming right?

So you two can go ride together and show each other the “right” style ;) I will follow you guys with my skinny Cyborg and play judge as well, oh wait, there is nothing to judge because you are both highly skilled riders with your own style :D

[Newmax]

:D

:lol:

:D

[RicHard]

Wider boards are also more versatile when slopes aren't perfectly groomed. Wide board floats better in fresh snow, soft / spring snow and powder.

I like wider boards mainly for this reason. ---^^^

[bumpyride]

I like wider boards mainly for this reason. ---^^^

Wonderful pictures on your website.

[RicHard]

Wonderful pictures on your website.

Ohps! Thanks a lot!!!

:o

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

Hi

Interesting thread, most of cones and pros has been said already. (Jack as usually i think you are right)

Here are my two cents, two aspects that has been missing so far.

1) Wider board = less stupid coments on the lift.

2) Personaly i am boared with "traditional" carving, i am looking into adding some freestyle elements switch, 360, jumps, grabs ect to my carving

Wider board, lower angles, twin tip is obvious way to go. (i ride 23cm and ankles between 40 and 50)

Try to land 360 on 18cm and steep angles 60+

[Gecko]

Try to land 360 on 18cm and steep angles 60+

:eek::eek:ah nooo

[Steve Prokopiw]

I have found a size 26 boot on a 19.5 width is still plenty effective for freestyle with 57f 54r angles.On an actual freeride board with a 25 waist I'll go down to 50f 45r to facilitate moves like switch heel to toe airs or spinning on the tail and stale fish grabs/spins.I'm having a custom made soon(hence the reason I'm selling off a bunch of boards)and it's dimensions will be toward the freestyle direction more than most but it will still be long enough to be macho:)