What The? BOMBER IS BEING SUED!

[NateW]

SicT2, it's my opinion that the boot shells have sufficient flex to leave no need for flex in the binding assembly. Adding flex to other components in the chain just adds more complexity and more things to go wrong. I've never had any trouble getting my Intec systems dialed in, and I trust them more than any other system on the market - even knowing about what happened to Joel. I'm not aware of anything out there that is more deserving of my trust - that's why I've been riding them for years, and expect to continue riding them this season.

Also, it occurred to me this morning (after spouting off here last night) that anything we say here may be used against Bomber in court. Lawyers are creative enough to turn words into ammunition in surprising ways. Let's keep it 100% positive for Fin and Bomber when speaking in public forums like this one.

[CarvCanada]

Joel, good luck and best wishes to recover!

I also have a rod in my front leg, although I'm sure my accident was far less serious, and the recovery for yours is probably longer than mine was (I was 17 years old), let me say that once you are over the hill and ready to start physio, recovery is very satisfying and visible process. Every time you go to the gym, you can see a difference. The first time I hobbled into the gym,I leg pressed 3 reps 20 lbs with my left leg and it was shaking and in pain. The next week I was doing 40 and it just rockets off from there, with pain dissipating. You gain muscle fast, and your bone mends and denses up so fast once you just get to the stage of hobbling around and being able to be healthy. I was surprised at how short a recovery it was to get to the point of 100%, strength comes back quick; agility takes longer and is a bit harder, but really, once you're hobbling, it's such a smooth progression to getting stronger and faster than you were before.

I hope this helps and that soon you'll be with fellow physio guys who lost what they love doing, and are working to get it back with you

On another note I'm really going to sticker up my board nice with binding decals and (Catek soft on prior mfr and if I can get to SES sometime, some bombers with plenty of stickers on donek FC). It's pretty awesome that we have these 2 great manufacturers who give this much to the sport, and build such solid bindings which keep us solidly and safely on our boards and take so much force directing our power to the boards.

[Guest Randy S.]

The doc in me cringes at the mentioned that he sued the docs taking care of him-his lawyers are looking for deep pockets, ...

I'm sorry, but show me where in the lawsuit he names a single doctor as a defendant? As far as I know, Joel hasn't sued any of the dozens of doctors who have treated him in the 10 months since his accident. I believe it is more akin to the situation you describe in the second part of that post Skatha, where Bomber is named only because they had to be named.

f Joel's lawyer has a good sense of right and wrong, he'll drop the charges against Bomber in return for a nothing more than a promise to bring to market a better product than the one that cost Joel the use of his leg.

As I mentioned before, my understanding is that Joel's lawyer had no choice but to name Bomber as part of this case because Bomber is the US distributor of F2's Intec Heels. FYI, Boards n More, another company named in the suit, is also part of F2, or perhaps their parent company, I don't recall. Joel bears no ill-will toward Bomber, loves the company, its products, its people and its community. F2 made a defective product and it has cost Joel thousands of dollars in medical bills, lost work, pain, agony and suffering. It could still easily cost him the ability to snowboard for the rest of his life (10 months and he's still not out of the woods as far as keeping his leg is concerned).

The world would not be a better place if Bomber had to bear the consequences of another manufacturer's shortcoming, but it WOULD be a better place if this incident led to a stronger alternative to F2's heel. And who better to make them than Bomber?

Agreed.

From a snowboarding / carving perspective, this strikes me as perhaps the most significant event in quite some time, certainly one of the most significant BOL threads I've ever seen. Are there any precedents for this suit, specifically snowboard or skiing equipment failing? If not, seems like this is it...

People have been suing ski binding manufacturers for years. I don't think there will be any precedents set as part of this case.

there is no way a manufacturer can continuously make defect-free products.

That's true

You mentioned a few failures out of millions of Intec heels out there. That sounds like parts per million (ppm) to me, a fairly good number. Even high reliable space systems do not have that level of quality, just look at the space shuttle.

I'm pretty sure there aren't millions of Intec heels out there. If so, there are a lot more carvers than we know of. Either way, whether it was a design or manufacturing flaw, if the company made a defective product, US law provides consumers an avenue to pursue compensation.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Had a talk with a lawyer friend of mine. In most jurisdictions in North America in this type of case it is SOP to sue the end-user supplier and in fact there is law in place to make this so as it would be difficult for Joe Enduser to sue some supplier in Europe. There would then be a succession of lawsuits or alternately a bunch of different claims within the same court action/mess but ultimately it is likely to be the manufacturer who is eventually found at fault. Even in that case they won't be too badly damaged as unless F2 are completely incompetant they have liability insurance in place for just this sort of instance.

So in short, Joel is doing what he has to do and it is unlikely that in the end Bomber will be held liable. If they are we can only hope that they also have liability insurance.

As far as forcing a redesign - as stated before, F2 even if found liable will not be much out of pocket unless they neglected to get their insurance. However the insurance company may well decline to reinsure unless F2 redesigns. This may turn out to be the worst case as if F2 decides our little market isn't worth the trouble of redesign we will be denied access to even the current, arguably flawed, design.

[FTA2R]

I would like to understand the situation more, pls answer if you can.

1. Do these F2 intecs dominate the N. American market? If not, what are other brands are there? Seems like they are the most readily available?

2. Is Joel's type of accident less likely with a very light rider such as myself? (hopefully)

3. Is there consensus re: how often these heels should be replaced?

4. Am I worrying too much? (I was tentatively planning on getting some SIs this year, but such a bad accident has me a bit nervous)

[terror]

(holding head and muttering)

Inflammatory Remark Suppressors at full power levels. Okay, breathe.

How is Joel?

How is Joel's insurance company doing with their end of the bargain?

[DrCR]

Just curious, but about what percentage of HBers ride Intec? Anyone know?

[Jack M]

But before I ask, standard sympathies to Joel apply. Seriously, I feel bad for the guy.

But, did he have insurance? If so, why aren't they paying his medical expenses? I know very little about insurance.

And, I find it very dubious that he "has" to sue Bomber to get to F2. Can any legal experts shed some light on this? Where is Marilyn Cambers, Esq.??

[Neil Gendzwill]

And, I find it very dubious that he "has" to sue Bomber to get to F2.

Yeah, that kind of surprised me. Sorry, I forget the legal term that my friend used. OTOH you can take it with a grain of salt as he's a Canadian lawyer, but usually if he doesn't know anything about US law he says so. He works a lot of lawsuits though, and often as a hired gun for the insurance companies, so I think he knows whereof he speaks.

[Guest Randy S.]

I would like to understand the situation more, pls answer if you can.

1. Do these F2 intecs dominate the N. American market? If not, what are other brands are there? Seems like they are the most readily available?

As far as I know, they are the only kind available to us. I believe Intec is actually a brand of F2's, but I'm not sure of that.

2. Is Joel's type of accident less likely with a very light rider such as myself? (hopefully)

Probably. Joel weighs more than 200lbs.

3. Is there consensus re: how often these heels should be replaced?

No, but the general wisdom here says every year or two. Joel was riding on brand new heels.

4. Am I worrying too much?

I hope so. I've ridden with them for 3 years or more, but Joel's accident has given me pause.

[Red]

I must say that reading this thread makes me feel sick to my stomach!

Joel, I hope you recover as fully as is humanly possible.

Must say that I've heard of exploding intec heels at least three times the past two months, and thats just here in tiny Holland.

Seems like the worst case scenario anyone could think of...........

Does anybody know if this has to de with recent production runs of the heels or has this problem been there for longer?

I also read a lot of negative comments about Burton bindings, I race Burton Physics with toe bails and the Burton heels along with 2005 Deelux Indy's and like them to bits, whats the problem?

Take care and be safe!

[Steve Dold]

To anyone who has had (or seen) an intec heel fail: Did the pin break, or the plastic? It would be nice to get some statistical data.

Anyone know what heppened to Joel's heel?

[Guest stoked]

don't have anything to say here except best wishes to Joel and hope this works out in a way that doesn't put the wrong or rather the right guys out of business

[Jon Dahl]

I have health insurance through work, and have purchased additional insurance for time lost/additional medical. As a parent and husband I feel that is the best way to cover the bases if I were to get hurt. Worry a little more about my back-country adventures than I do about resort riding ,other than human pylons of course! $55.00 a month is cheap peace of mind, considering I lose a lot more than that a day if I wipe out bad.

[Hugh]

I talked to Joel a few times about his accident and medical care following.

1. Joel does/did have medical insurance, but it does not cover everything 100%. Even with decent insurance, he still has a lot to pay for the medical care (out of pocket) and it continues to require treatment.

2. From the pictures of the Intec that failed, the metal pin on one side of the heel broke through the plastic heel (down and out). I can't remember any details about the other pin.

Thinking about snow...

Hugh

[alexeyga]

I must say that reading this thread makes me feel sick to my stomach!

I also read a lot of negative comments about Burton bindings, I race Burton Physics with toe bails and the Burton heels along with 2005 Deelux Indy's and like them to bits, whats the problem?

The thing is, many pro-racers are still using Burtons, they're simply used to the fact that they break and they always carry spare parts... However, pro-racers have rather extensive experience of falures and they do now what to do in this case, so they come out clean in the contrary to wonnabe racers - office rats mostly, who's experience has to do more with office chairs and beer bottles...

Having said that, I'm not pointing any fingers, just laying out facts as they are. You've desided to stand on speed-oriented equipment? Fine, but accept the fact that you're the only one resposible for what fallows. Besides, everything breaks, yes it is possible to design something bullet-proof, but there is always this balance between safety factor, intended use and weight...

Joel's case is one of many other ones, perhaps one of the worst ones happened this year, but nor it was the last one...

Keep it safe!

[skategoat]

Alexeyga, read the thread more carefully - this guy was riding brand new Intec heels and one of the pins pulled right through the plastic. That, to me, is not simply part of the game and is not the type of risk that I assume just by clipping into a carving board.

I understand the risks of driving my car at 100 km/h on the highway but do not accept the risk of catastrophic equipment failure.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's like the difference between hitting a tree and hitting a grooming machine parked under a blind drop-off - some risks you accept, sometimes it really is someone else's fault. It's just too bad so many people who sue don't see the difference.

[Erwin]

First of all, my best wishes to Joel. I hope you recover fully from this horrible accident!

I ... do not accept the risk of catastrophic equipment failure.

This raises the question: Is this equipment failure or not?

As mentioned in the Intec topic, I've once broken my intec heel, too. The plastic exactly below the pin was blown away, however my foot was not ejected at once. This happened during normal riding, however I do not know if the heel was already damaged earlier. For your stats: I weigh 188 lbs. Fortunately, I only needed replacement of my intec heels to be "happy" again, however things could have been much worse. After this accident a friend of mine told me he damages his intec heels quite regularly and therefore he replaces them every year. However, this should certainly not happen to a brand new product. It is too bad that a company like BomberOnline gets sued, as they are one of few companies paying attention to what we need; ie. companies who listen to input from us hardbooters. I get the feeling other "big" companies don't feel the need to change their outdated designs.

If I had the option to choose different Intec compatible heels, I would immediately drop the F2s! However, I do not trust normal bails either, nor do I trust the part of my hardboot that hold the bails.

Until something better comes up, I inspect everything very regularly and just hope for the best...maybe a case like this will cause things to change...

Erwin

[kamran]

In medical world (well, US medical world) when something goes wrong ,say if a surgeon does something wrong, the whole chain will be sued. That is the referring doctor, hospital, anesthesiologist and the surgeon. The whole chain. If that kind of practice applies here, then that is why Bomber is being involved (sadly!)

On the other hand, the attorney or the court could argue that if a manufacturing company (bomber or catek) designs and manufactures a product (step-ins) around (or equipped with) another product (F2 intecs), then this implies that the manufacturing company assumes/approves the 'safety' of the other product (intec heels) and that could make them liable if the product is indeed proven not safe.

I don't know if this example stands, but a few years ago, a car company (was it Ford?)had to take responsibility and recall all their cars equipped with Firestone tires that were hazardous. The car was Okay but they chose the wrong tires and they were accountable.

Personally I hope that things will settle for both Joel and Bomber, all for the better.

[~tb]

First and Foremost. . . I extend my best wishes to Joel, And bomber. . . and F2. . . and everyone. . . except maybe the lawyers. Just thought I would share my opposite experience.

I Used to go through 1 pair of boots per year prior to switching to intecs. Every year, without fail, I would rip the heel of my back boot clear off. This normally resulted in a spectacular crash . . . that luckily for me, never resulted in injury, and therfore. . . no reason to do anything other than send a nasty-gram to the beloved boot manufacturer that would go unanswered.

2 years ago, I switched to the step ins. Got everything set up right and working right and my boots are now going into their third season! Im VERY happy with this fact. For once, I have worn the liners out PRIOR to breaking any plastic part.

Based on what I am hearing though . . .I can decide if I should replace my heels. IF it is a manufacturing Variability issue, I run a GREATER risk by replacing with shiny new heels. If it is a use over time thing as well. . . I run a GREATER risk not replacing them.

Here is my not quite politically appropriate statement/question. . .

Joel's accident was a first day out on a brand new piece of equipment. . . yes/no? Everyone can call me a wuss . . or anal, but personaly, I always take it easy on the first day out on a new piece of equipment. Easier trails, wider trails, and slower speeds. Conditions that I trust that even if the equipment completely failed, it would just be an embarrasing fall and not a significant injury.

1 hour in, I stop and inspect the new equipment. At lunch, I stop and inspect the new equipment. At the end of the day, I take everything apart, check for anything that doesn't look right and put it back together.

As the day progresses, I stay on the same open, easier trails, but load the equipment up more and more UNTIL I feel 100% comfortable with the new piece of equipment. I even do this with my new boards that are EXACTY copies of my previous board, just in case for some reason something changed.

Am I the only one that puts this level of precaution or thought into a new piece of equipment? Could this level of care and a level head about new equipment have helped out in this situation and potentially avoided the injury and resultant law suits?

As for a question that I might get an answer to: Was this Joel's first turn, on the very first run on this piece of equipment? If yes. . . GULP! If no, how many runs in was he? Trying to gague what I should do about my heels.

-Todd

[Rob-CanCarve]

Joel:

My best wishes are with you for a speedy recovery.

I have to agree with Todd (he and I have a very similar approach as it relates to equipment) - both my snowboarding and skateboarding gear is constantly being taken apart and re-built, especially when new.

I too have ripped the heals out of a set of Raichles using standard bails and moved to Intecs last year. But as Todd mentioned I to am trying to decide about using my heels.

Is it possible for Fin to create a solid alloy heel, at least we would not have to worry about the plastic failing and causing potential injury.

Just my 2 cents

Rob

[Mr.E]

As mentioned before, might an alloy heel not just pull from the boot? Moving the weak link so to speak. One migt never know without trying, but that could be rather spendy. I can't imagine F2 would let it happen without a licensing fee at the least.

[Shred Gruumer]

Mr E.. well said just like HALTAF testing or and other testing where you shake it till it breaks,,then you solve that it moves to the next breaking point then the next and the next.. next thing ya know your leg snaps off.. at some point a failure is a good thing.. I know you might not think so but.. about a year ago I was carving at a good clip and my nose of the F2 board caught on a uneven cat groom ledge. It happened so fast I just thought I lost an edge or something.. I got up and tried to lean forward to get going again and fell right over... MY board snaped clean in half by the binding.. THE binding stayed in tacked and went to the next breaking point.. Im sure if nothing equipement wise would have broke,, then it would have been body parts..neck.. back.. legs.. it would have been ugly..

I deal with this kinda stuff.. im a QE in an aerospace company,, and I have seen a lot.. so it has been intresting points mentioned.. like PPM's and stress relief points and so on..

Intresting.. I have never had a boot heel break off.. and im pretty heavy.. have never wanted to go to Inteck heels.. If I can't bend over to clip in ..I know its time to stop eating.. ! Its a beer belly check for me..

Right Said Shred

[Scott]

Shred:

A QE?

Ever consider Boston as a base?

We need a reliability engineer

Scott