Softboot carvers: mainstream vs custom

[Odd Job]

6 hours ago, kitejumping said:

The whole idea that you need an all mountain board to ride trees and moguls I think is kind of an industry joke since those are pretty basic skills all good snowboarders have, I've even seen hardbooters ride trees and moguls just fine (although yes it is much less forgiving and probably more for that 100 day plus group lol) 

Yeah. I used to be really bad in moguls on softboots. It was just a little bit worse on hardboots, even on a 187.

I'm a lot better, but still suck. I bet it's just a little bit worse on hardboots still....

9/0 or 12/3 softboot angles to 50/45 on hardboots. Almost the same after enough days.

[philw]

On 11/3/2023 at 6:35 PM, softbootsurfer said:

anyway...just got the 4th Hometown 160, I like a new one each year and give the last one ... ...best Stick I have ever had, for Pow or whatever ...

On that... my HH 144 is the best board I ever rode, although I'm not entirely sure why. I've ridden many different ones, but they've all been the same graphics. If you've had four, did you notice any differences in the model years?

[softbootsurfer]

No difference noted Phil, I don't know why either, the thing just is good no matter where or what you ask of it...son Rob says it is a great Stick as well, and he puts them through the ringer... 

[slabber]

Was going to grab a Ride Commissioner while on closeout.   C$567 delivered from PRFO.  

But can't figure out which to get, 155 or 158cm. 

I'm 5'6" 155lbs.   

Leaning towards 158 as the Burton Factory Prime 5.7 200s I had was too turny (IMO) with 8.7m sidecut radius.  

When I check online reviews, lots of much bigger people are reviewing the 158 and saying it's so stiff etc.  I expect they've never ridden hardboot carving boards etc.  

Thoughts? 

[crackaddict]

165cm.  No question.

@slabber

[slabber]

Oof.  I don't weigh enough for that one according to their chart 

thanks @crackaddict, helps me firm up my thoughts that the 158 will be better.  

you guys riding already at RMR?  

Edited November 27, 2023 by slabber

[dropthebody]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:08 AM, Jack M said:

6m sidecut - I guess forget laying that one over.

Unless you like whiplash.

[slabber]

I spent some time looking through a couple of the ToyFilms vids and looking up various board models, trying to compare sidecut radii etc.  

10m sidecut on the 158 so will likely nicer to carve, coming from hardboots (vs 9m on the 155). 

 

[crackaddict]

53 minutes ago, slabber said:

Oof.  I don't weigh enough for that one according to their chart 

Yes you do.  I put Martina on a NeverSummer Ripsaw x-wide 162 last season and she loved it!  5'4" 114lbs.  This confirmed my suspicion that most manufacturers are terribly undersizing their boards.  That Ripsaw is marketed to big men wanting a fast board but actually it's Martina's size (for carving).  This is her rocking it on a real Revelstoke black diamond (sorry for the poor quality video).

The Commissioner is not an all-mountain, it's a directional carver.  You're gonna need the extra width and you're going to love the 12m sidecut.  You're a harboot carver, not a buttering fool.  The 165 is not too big for you, don't be afraid.  1253mm effective edge is not a big board.  I also weight 155lbs, my soft boot carvers are 1400 to 1500 effective, 12-16m.

58 minutes ago, slabber said:

you guys riding already at RMR?

Opening day is Saturday.

[dhamann]

great point @crackaddict. take a serious look at effective edge when looking for carve oriented tool. this is probably one of the major differences between mainstream and custom. when we think custom with the majority of the crowd on this forum, we're thinking carving. alpine snowboarders at any level know this ee or running length spec. it can be a mind boggling concept for others to understand sometimes. simple concept, but i think most mainstream shoppers are looking at brand, length, graphic and maybe waist. knowing about sidecut is a new concept to some. effective edge (ee) is just as important as waist width; especially for carve focused riding. next is probably sidecut (parabolic, vsr, radial, etc). then overall length. the "swing weight" beyond the effective edge is something to consider. the majority of mainstream boards have less ee, tighter sidecuts and more swing weight. we know all boards can carve, but there is a method to the madness of how boards are designed to better achieve this specific carve performance of a snowboard. some better than others. rider preferences play a huge role. some of us like only carve boards. some all mountain. i know a few different folks that ride the commissioner as a directional free carve, free ride, race board, half pipe and freestyle. the board can be used however the rider intends. not a one trick pony, but it's a bull to ride for most mainstreamers. the ripsaw x has an 8.1m radius on the 162 and 1230 ee with some sort of rocker/camber combo (isn't this just flat?). commissioner has 11m radius on the 162 and 1228 ee with camber and early rise. tom burt 162, 10.25m, 1257ee, full camber. SG soul 159, 9.75m, 1390ee, full camber (the RCR is slight only when standing on board. i mean slight as in only because it says it in the marketing.) i have the 64xt soul. these sidecuts can determine the turn shape, but as the video demonstrates, it's not always turning the fixed radius of the board spec. experienced riders can manipulate the board to turn in many different ways. look at ryan knapton with the 17m boards and whipping around like an 8m. shorter in length for the intended style or riding, but full camber and a larger ee than mainstream specs. this is where the science meets the art of the turn. athletic abilities apply. reading terrain, fall lines, etc. is all part of it. the design of such niche boards isn't part of the mainstream yet because they don't sell as well as what has been made and proven over the history of snowboarding. some of us know better and some prefer these specs, but not the mainstream. again, yet. they can be just too extreme for one discipline. some companies see this and are making a difference. we know these companies. it takes gut$ to test the market for anything as niche as this and hope that interest continues to grow. run what ya brung.

[Xargo]

22 hours ago, slabber said:

Thoughts? 

165. Though looking at the photos of that board, it might have the same kind of sidecut than the aluminum Timeless from couple of years back. I have two of those (153 and 167) and they are supposed to have 9 and 12 sidecuts. That might be the case for most of the sidecut length but they also have these strange kinks of tighter sidecut at both nose and tail. They work great for low speed agility but not so much for higher speed carving. Looking at the Commissioner, I think I see the same kind of kinks. Looking at the Ride tech spec page, that seems to be the case: "Designed exclusively for the Commissioner, this sidecut combines tight elliptical curvature at the tip and tail to provide low-speed initiation and response with a larger radial section between the feet for high-speed stability and tracking."

Don't get me wrong, both those aluminum Timeless boards work great and the 167 was my main sb carver before my new Contra. Just wanted to point out that the nose and tail sidecuts are probably much much tighter than the spec sheet indicates.

Here's an example of how the 167 Timeless works in steeps with duck stance:

I would assume Commissioner would be quite similar.

[slabber]

The Commissioner was apparently the Timeless replacement so I wouldn't be surprised if they were very similar, or even the same. 

I've abandoned the Commissioner for now and will see about getting Bruce to build me another board.   I'll work with him on geometry.  I'm certainly happy with my Contra 166 10.5 19cm waist.  

I appreciate everyone's input.  It's been valuable feedback. 

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

FWIW Bruce is recommending 142 cm of effective edge for me at 210 lbs.  That's what he rides, although he says it's a little long for his weight.  He's quite a bit lighter but also a much better carver than I am.

That will end up being a 163, 167 or 171 depending on which nose/tail profile I select.  I might get him to build it a little softer, I'm about 20 lbs heavier right now than I like to be.

[Xargo]

Btw. Bruce said he might build another sample of my weird hardboot tech wide softboot carver and letting people try it out. Might want to ask about that. I know I'm getting a second one with pretty much the same specs since I want to keep riding this board for a long time.

[Neil Gendzwill]

We'll see what he recommends.  The boots I'm using aren't overly stiff and I have no plans to switch to a super stiff softie set up for this.  So I'm asking him to build me something that works OK with moderate angles and medium stiff boots.

[Xargo]

Yeah I meant more that if he wants other people to try the board he would build anyways to figure out if others like the design as much as I do. I wouldn't recommend to just order that design "blind". I'm just curious how others would like the design and apparently Bruce is too.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Xargo

[Pat Donnelly]

Picked up last year's Berzerker to try out with hard boots.  One description was the only time this board was happy was constantly on edge/turning:

SIZEEFF-EDGEWAIST WIDTHSIDECUT RADIUSTIP & TAIL WIDTHSET BACKREF STANCERIDER WEIGHT

 

Len   EE     Waist   SCR                 Tip  /  Tail

165 1254  253     6.2 - 8.4 - 5.8  304 / 296 

[Xargo]

16 hours ago, Xargo said:

Here's an example of how the 167 Timeless works in steeps with duck stance:

I would assume Commissioner would be quite similar.

For the sake of comparison, here's new footage with the CFR that replaced the Timeless (I'll probably still ride pow with the Timeless though):

 

[Deuxdiesel]

I went through a bunch of boards during my transition to softboot carving.  Lots of demos, always asking for the biggest, burliest board they have, trying other peoples when possible.  I'm 59 years old and 170, so neither big nor very flexible, and the difference between most recreational boards and the high-end boards for the groomers was virtually nil.  The closest thing I found was a Nitro Pantera.  Granted, the riding I do now is almost exclusively in northern Michigan where the snow is pretty firm and often "variable", conditions that make production boards flappy, chattery and nervous.  It wasn't until I rolled the dice and ordered a Coiler BXFR that my eyes were opened.  Night and day difference, and with high-end production boards in the $600 range, and extra few hundred to get a custom board like a Coiler or Donek makes it worth every penny.  If I lived someplace with great snow and great grooming, it might be different.  Horses for courses.

[Neil Gendzwill]

My order is in with Bruce.  I’m a softie carving novice so in the end we’ll see if I ride the board or it rides me. The graphics are going to be super cool so at least I’ll have that. 

[slabber]

1 hour ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

My order is in with Bruce.  I’m a softie carving novice so in the end we’ll see if I ride the board or it rides me. The graphics are going to be super cool so at least I’ll have that. 

Good stuff.  I sent him a note couple days ago, looks like I will try to switch back to another hardboot Contra instead, 12m to complement my 10.5m 166cm I have now.  

I'll get more use out of a hardboot Contra then the softboot, at least for now at our local hill which has short runs, more suited to step in bindings.  I don't have budget for another set of bindings at this point.  

I am confident you'll have fun with the new Coiler.  As long as you've been clear in your needs, I'm sure he'll build something to suit.  That's the beauty of working with Bruce. 

Sneak peak on what you've got planned for graphics? 

[Neil Gendzwill]

2 hours ago, slabber said:

Sneak peak on what you've got planned for graphics

Nope. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

One note of comparison for custom vs stock: my board will have 138 cm of effective edge on a 166.  Compare that to the Ride Commissioner which has 125 cm of edge on a 165.  Similarly the Amplid Pentaquark has 118 cm of edge on a 158.

And this is Bruce's all-terrain shape.  If I had gone for the BX shape I could have shortened it up 5 or 6 cm and kept the same edge.

[Xargo]

2 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

One note of comparison for custom vs stock: my board will have 138 cm of effective edge on a 166.  Compare that to the Ride Commissioner which has 125 cm of edge on a 165.  Similarly the Amplid Pentaquark has 118 cm of edge on a 158.

And this is Bruce's all-terrain shape.  If I had gone for the BX shape I could have shortened it up 5 or 6 cm and kept the same edge.

Sounds good. Mine is 136 cm effective on a 164. 16m sidecut though but anyways, I like the length a lot.

[NateW]

+1 for larger sidecut radius. I'd recommend a custom board to anyone who wants to carve a lot, just for that reason alone. 

It boggles my mind that the industry thinks nobody would be happy with larger than 10m. Hopefully the 12m Commissioner gets people thinking. But it's still dumb that you can only get 12m on the largest (165).  "Oh hi, you want to rail fast carves? We've got the board for you... oh wait, you're 5'6" sorry we just got slow boards for you."

The ideal SCR isn't a function of rider height, it should be chosen based on how fast someone tends to ride. If I was in change, the whole Commissioner line would be 12m, maybe 13m.  

And like someone said earlier, it's also weird that the industry steers people toward such short boards.