Softboot carvers: mainstream vs custom

[slabber]

For the Canucks here, solid deal on what looks like last year's Commissioner.  Just graphics/color difference I believe over the 2024 model.   https://www.prfo.com/products/ride-mens-commissioner-snowboard?variant=41793800405036

 

 

I have a fitness benefit from work that resets in January.  I will prob look to have Bruce build me a SB Contra I think.   Need to do some more research.   Commissioner would be a top choice for me otherwise I think.  I have size 7 boots so narrow isn't an issue.

Edited November 1, 2023 by slabber

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Damn that 157W looks sweet, 10m too…

[slabber]

1 hour ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Damn that 157W looks sweet, 10m too…

There's a 19/20 model year 158 for sale on Kijiji in Ottawa currently - in dialog with seller, might pick up if I can get a deal.   

[west carven]

howdy

off-the-shelf...

 

[philw]

5 hours ago, west carven said:

howdy

off-the-shelf...

This is how carving wins, in the end.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Saw the Freecarver in the shop. It’s quite a bit stiffer than my Flagship and has a chunky waist, at least the 160 9000 I checked out. I think it’s 28 cm. So I’m thinking about it. 

13 hours ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Damn that 157W looks sweet, 10m too…

Yeah but only a 26.4 cm waist. 

[Jack M]

6m sidecut - I guess forget laying that one over.

[Rob Stevens]

It’d be nice to see them crack the throttle carving. 
If it’s got a sidecut, most boards can edge like that. 

[kitejumping]

2 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Saw the Freecarver in the shop. It’s quite a bit stiffer than my Flagship and has a chunky waist, at least the 160 9000 I checked out. I think it’s 28 cm. So I’m thinking about it. 

Yeah but only a 26.4 cm waist. 

It better be stiffer than the flagship, my carbon flagship felt like a kids butter toy rental board vs my current Donek.  I guess it was fitting for the small sidecut and width it had though to keep it easy to fly through moguls and trees.  

[Corey]

If nothing else, I now realize how mainstream board prices have climbed. 

Custom boards are looking better and better!

[crackaddict]

It seems to me the big snowboard manufacturers remain stuck in this "one board quiver" mentality, much of the riding population too.  This leads to the production and marketing of compromise boards.  Have a look at the websites, almost every board is marketed as "rips the corduroy, floats in pow, turns tight in the trees and flies in the park too!".  

(It would be interesting to see the mean quiver size of ASB members vs the overall snowboarding population.  My guess is triple or quadruple: 4-6 boards for ASB members vs 1-2 boards for snowboarders generally.)

So to address the OP's original question: if you want a dedicated carver you go to Thirst, Coiler, or Donek (or even a stock model from one of the Euro or Asian manufacturers).  If you want one board that does everything poorly just get one of these wide waisted offerings from Jones or NeverSummer.  Best bet?  Get both.  There's a place for each and it's so awesome that my all-mountain boards can now carve the cord without boot out when I come out of the trees and hit the cat track.  Ten years ago this was not possible, unless you happened to be @Ryan Knapton.

So I do see progress: wider waists, stiffer and longer camber boards for sure, and I'm delighted to see manufacturers listing their widths underfoot in the spec charts.  Maybe carving is finally making that comeback that we've all been expecting and prognosticating since it's decline?  If so it's happening pretty slowly, and that Jones Freecarver 9000 160 with 134ee and 9.4m sidecut is still an "all-mountain" from my perspective, and it's still a ways off from the specs I would like to see on a board marketed as "ideal for ripping huge turns at speed" but it's definitely a step in the right direction.  (Those of you who know me probably recognize that my perspective may admittedly be a hair skewed towards the dangerously fast end of the spectrum.)

And also, since we're addressing the OP @Neil Gendzwill, I have to respectfully disagree with his assertion that the big manufacturers have tech that the small guys don't.  While there is some truth to this statement, Bruce and Mark each have proprietary technologies and manufacturing processes that production boards can't touch.  I would suggest, for example, that Bruce Varsava has ridden more different boards than anyone else on the planet, and if you've ever had a glimpse of Mark Miller's core construction you might start to have some idea of why Thirst boards carve so well.  Both of these guys are many years ahead of the big manufacturers when it comes to carving performance.

 

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

2 hours ago, crackaddict said:

that Jones Freecarver 9000 160 with 134ee and 9.4m sidecut is still an "all-mountain" from my perspective

The video from Jones supports that idea.  There isn't much footage of them carving, instead they're doing jump turns down a 50 degree face and riding bumps.  I bought my Flagship for that sort of riding and it works pretty well.  If I get a softboot carver it should be more focused.

Also they talk about overpowering the 6m sidecut on the 6000 with too much speed, but don't talk about how anyone with any carving skill should be able to turn a 9m sidecut pretty damn tight.  It's not going to "run away on you" unless you let it.

I think Jeremy Jones knows this stuff perfectly well but we are not his target audience.

[Neil Gendzwill]

4 hours ago, kitejumping said:

It better be stiffer than the flagship, my carbon flagship felt like a kids butter toy rental board vs my current Donek.  I guess it was fitting for the small sidecut and width it had though to keep it easy to fly through moguls and trees.  

Jeremy Jones claims that unless you're putting in 100+ days a year you've got no business being on the Ultra Flagship.

[kitejumping]

26 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Jeremy Jones claims that unless you're putting in 100+ days a year you've got no business being on the Ultra Flagship.

I put in more than 100 days a season and actually had to warranty my first ultra carbon flagship well before that since I popped the base graphic out of it between the mountain logo as I guess it couldn't hold up to how much I was flexing it like a toy.  To be fair I did the same thing to another brand of board as well (if companies don't use a single piece for the base under the front heel where all the pressure from your heelside turn goes, the two pieces tend to pop apart over time, maybe due to all the board decambering and pressure on that spot).  Any carving boards should have no die cuts under the main part of the sintered base lol.  I get that relative to his other boards it's way stiffer but the mainstream brand boards are way too flexy to push properly for aggressive soft boot carvers.  I think it's probably great for JJ to carve on since he weighs less and has smaller boots, but the specs across the different sized boards in the same series don't really scale properly and the sidecuts are all pretty tight.  I know there are videos of him racing hardboots back in the day so he is capable of more aggressive carving but none of the boards in his lineup are great dedicated carving boards IMHO, more like low edge angle slower cruising carvers.  Probably because if they made a truly awesome carving board most people wouldn't be able to ride it and they wouldn't sell many, so the one size fits most approach applies and we get mediocre generic boards from all the brands that are pretty good for powder, trees, park, and moguls, but leave a lot to be desired for carving.  

[Odd Job]

420 Jones is smoking some really good shit.

[philw]

15 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

... There isn't much footage of them carving, instead they're doing jump turns down a 50 degree face and riding bumps.  

Also they talk about overpowering the 6m sidecut on the 6000 with too much speed, but don't talk about how anyone with any carving skill should be able to turn a 9m sidecut pretty damn tight.  It's not going to "run away on you" unless you let it.

I think Jeremy Jones knows this stuff perfectly well but we are not his target audience.

 As pointed out, I'm sure he knows his stuff and his audience. They're not Koura, it looks to me that the the "all mountain" carving thing is precisely his target market....

The video starts with a long carved turns segment - most soft boot guys would love to carve like that. The second half is "objection handling" the soft booters who notice how easy the slopes in the first half are, and think it might be unsuitable for the whole mountain. The message I think is: (a) it will carve; and (b) it will go anywhere.

I suppose I'm kind of in that target area. Except I've got better boots and bindings.

Jones was riding better than his buddy who was on the bigger sidecut, but I'd guess that's rider more than board. They were on open piste, so not going fast. My HH 6.6m sidecut is fine on closed easy piste well in excess of the speeds he describes; I can't "blow through" the sidecut on closed easy piste at speeds higher than those discussed. But that's a Burton (!), I'm using hard boots, and I've practiced more than most of his customers will.

Having a range of sizes is a good thing and bigger is no doubt easier to control ("more fun") at speed. Try both and pick the funnest is what I'd do.
 

14 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Jeremy Jones claims that unless you're putting in 100+ days a year you've got no business being on the Ultra Flagship.

Couldn't find that in the video - presumably it's from somewhere else. Out of context I'm not sure what he's saying - can you elaborate please?

Burton has various constructions available for the Hometown Hero. I have the standard, but there's some "FWT" branded version, and I think a "Mystery" one. The difference in cash is easy to see, the actually difference... they don't really say. On those sorts of things, well just "beefing up the flex" doesn't really work as a sales thing for me - I'd just buy the next size up if I wanted it beefier. Can anyone explain what you're buying with those things?
 

[Neil Gendzwill]

1 hour ago, philw said:

 Couldn't find that in the video - presumably it's from somewhere else. Out of context I'm not sure what he's saying - can you elaborate please?

Can anyone explain what you're buying with those things?
 

Jones said the bit about 100 days/season in another video where they were going over their freeride lineup. I do way less than that and I’m pretty sure I could handle the Ultra Flagship but the regular one works great for what I want out of it. 
 

Regarding what you are paying for in these special editions, I guess it depends on which one. The Tribute Lounge is a pretty good YT channel, that’s the promo one for Mark Fawcett’s shop. They did a glowing review of the Mega Death which is Capita’s high end version of the Black Snowboard of Death. It’s actually softer flexing than the BSOD but lighter and snappier. So I don’t think you can just go by stiffer. Titanium construction allows alpine decks to hold an edge better than stiffer decks with older construction.  

[Rob Stevens]

21 hours ago, crackaddict said:

There's a place for each and it's so awesome that my all-mountain boards can now carve the cord without boot out when I come out of the trees and hit the cat track.  Ten years ago this was not possible, unless you happened to be @Ryan Knapton.

When did you see Ryan coming out of the trees?

I say this with no malice as he’s a very warm in his approach and not afraid to give an honest assessment of his abilities and limitations, in the chats I had with him. Certainly, he was open about how he felt that the terrain at Turner was over his head and that he really preferred lower angle, open slopes to do his thing. My response was that his equipment was rather specialized. The exchange left me wondering if he was sacrificing his own personal enjoyment to focus on a part of his riding that receives the greatest acclaim? I think so, but believe that this acclaim brings him as much or more joy than supposed “mastery” of anything he might be confronted with.

In that way, he’s not sacrificing anything at all and he’s doing exactly what he likes. 

For the rest of us, I suppose it only means more trips back to the car if you never want to be caught on the “wrong” board. Personally, I can’t be f#€ked with that, so a “one board to rule them all” is my go to. Being in a spot on the mountain where I’d say “I don’t want to (or worse, can’t) go there” because my board was too purpose specific is a place I’ve been and have no interest in going back to. 

I suppose in a way it’s like Ryan’s approach… he’d like to look good at all times. 

[slabber]

21 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

Certainly, he was open about how he felt that the terrain at Turner was over his head and that he really preferred lower angle, open slopes to do his thing. My response was that his equipment was rather specialized.

For the rest of us, I suppose it only means more trips back to the car if you never want to be caught on the “wrong” board. Personally, I can’t be f#€ked with that, so a “one board to rule them all” is my go to. Being in a spot on the mountain where I’d say “I don’t want to (or worse, can’t) go there” because my board was too purpose specific is a place I’ve been and have no interest in going back to. 

 

For me, I'm certainly more confident on the easier slopes - still need to practice carving on the steeper pitches.  I need to push my boundaries a bit to get past the plateau I guess.   My daughter will be skiing faster than me this year if I don't step it up 

[kitejumping]

31 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

Personally, I can’t be f#€ked with that, so a “one board to rule them all” is my go to. Being in a spot on the mountain where I’d say “I don’t want to (or worse, can’t) go there” because my board was too purpose specific is a place I’ve been and have no interest in going back to. 

I suppose in a way it’s like Ryan’s approach… he’d like to look good at all times. 

One board to rule them all for me as well. I ride a similarly spec'd board as RK in a similar style, for me certain terrain just makes things that are super easy on some terrain way harder to do, usually due to conditions limitations.  For example, with a 20m sidecut, on black diamond runs it takes a very wide run to close your turns and keep your speed in check, and wide black diamond runs are pretty rare.  So when you have a black diamond steep run that is narrow, you can only get two or maybe 3 open carved turns in before you are going 40mph+ and need to speed check (in most conditions, since steep runs tend to get scraped away and turn into race snow).  On the rare occurrence that the snow is perfect for carving then I can decamber the board (the snow lets it dig in without losing an edge) and make it make turns more in the 14m radius range, which opens up doing a lot more linked turns together on that same terrain and also takes care of the acceleration problem.  All of this would be super easy in comparison on a 12m sidecut board, but then you don't get to have as much fun doing big turns on wide less steep terrain.  Trees and moguls the sidecut doesn't really matter so my boards limitations really only apply to trying to make agressive carved turns on steep hardpack with marginal conditions. 

Since usually the steep groomers are quickly destroyed by high speed skidded turners and full of dangerous missiles that usually haven't learned to turn or stop yet, board choice that's ideal for the blue and green groomers wins. 

The whole idea that you need an all mountain board to ride trees and moguls I think is kind of an industry joke since those are pretty basic skills all good snowboarders have, I've even seen hardbooters ride trees and moguls just fine (although yes it is much less forgiving and probably more for that 100 day plus group lol) 

Edited November 3, 2023 by kitejumping

[Neil Gendzwill]

25 minutes ago, kitejumping said:

The whole idea that you need an all mountain board to ride trees and moguls I think is kind of an industry joke since those are pretty basic skills all good snowboarders have, I've even seen hardbooters ride trees and moguls just fine (although yes it is much less forgiving and probably more for that 100 day plus group lol) 

I can ride them with my hardboots.  But the softie setup is easier and way more forgiving.  Especially if the light is flat, if I am in bumps or mixed snow conditions I can adjust way easier and recover from situations that probably would have put me on my ass in hard boots.  A softer flex and shorter length sure helps too. My 180 with the 14 m sidecut is doable in bumps so long as they aren't too terribly tight, I'm not crazy about taking it into tight trees.

[philw]

Thanks. It's an odd thing to say. I'd say if you don't have a minimum of a few hundred days total it's hard to be really good, but I've never heard of a board which requires you to practice quite so hard!  Perhaps he just meant "you need to be on your game for this one". I dare say a fair few people here are entirely on their game.
 

45 minutes ago, kitejumping said:

The whole idea that you need an all mountain board to ride trees and moguls I think is kind of an industry joke

I'm looking through the other end of the telescope to you on that one. The idea that hard boots and a 1.8m stiff board designed for flat piste are the best tool for trees and moguls... well we all learned that was wrong last century. Not impossible, but almost no one could do it! Not sure I understand the "joke" thing.

Quote

"one board to rule them all”

Back in the day I couldn't make that work. Now I can. One board to carry around the world. It's like  photography: outside really specialized stuff, a modern zoom exceeds the quality of previous generation primes and is the tool for most purposes. Oldsters still insist on carrying bags of lenses, no one else cares.

Knapton... you only see videos of him on easy slopes. Might as well be a hardboot carver  Thereby proving my contention that it's not really about the gear.
 
I rode with a bunch of people in a Euro equivalent of the US "Turner" thing. There are some folk who are superb steep glacier terrain, using narrow and very stiff boards with massive pop designed specifically for that. When we had powder... they were fish out of water. Their gear was better than mine in that one specific application they rode every week, but not much use for anything else.

Jones is selling more general purpose gear, perhaps because that's a bigger market. Which company's going to sell more boards... [a hard boot carving company] or Jones? 

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ryan seems to be on a break these days, he hasn't put out any new content since April.  At any rate he's a good guy and good at what he does but I think I'd be pretty bored if I spent all my time on the blue groomers he loves so much.

[softbootsurfer]

anyway...just got the 4th Hometown 160, I like a new one each year and give the last one to our son Rob, when he comes for his Month with the twins each January...best Stick I have ever had, for Pow or whatever, even old man slo carving, I likes Jones comment about stiff taking off, that is the truth, soft you can adapt if you know how, stiff you can have some trouble, trying to adapt to slower speeds...personal opinions are just that so I usually ride alone...Snowboards are like Guitar strings, if you want them to be

Edited November 4, 2023 by softbootsurfer
redundant

[kitejumping]

1 hour ago, philw said:

I'm looking through the other end of the telescope to you on that one. The idea that hard boots and a 1.8m stiff board designed for flat piste are the best tool for trees and moguls... well we all learned that was wrong last century. Not impossible, but almost no one could do it! Not sure I understand the "joke" thing.

Ah yeah, I could have been more clear on the joke part, but that's more about any board you could buy from a snowboard shop these days in a resort town (most don't sell hardboots) if someone tries to push a rider towards a park board, vs pipe board, vs powder board, vs all mountain or carving board and they say you need a specific board or you can't ride a specific type of terrain.  All the boards are capable of making it through anything under a good rider.  Zeb Powell is the perfect example proving this with all the crazy park stuff he has done on his super ultra mega blossom board which is 100% the opposite of what a park board is traditionally known as.  The board isn't going to self destruct if it enters the wrong terrain, it just might require way more skill from the rider to make it work.