A little virtual coaching please?

[icebiker]

I’m looking to get lower to the snow on both toe sides and heel sides. I’ve followed much of the advice from various posts on this forum over the years as well as the Carver’s Almanac, however I think I’ve plateaued at this point and could use a little nudge to get better.  

To give you idea of where I’m at, the two still pics are about as close to the slope as I get on heel side and toe side respectively.  These were taken during moderate speed turns.

The video was filmed when I was doing more relaxed turns, not really pushing myself, but should give you a sense of my position, stance, etc  

I [think] what I need to do is a) angulate the board higher on edge AND b) move my upper body more toward the board’s downhill edge (the edge not in contact with the snow). This, in turn (pun intended ), should c) drive the knees/legs lower toward the slope.  Does that sound right?  Any guidance and corrective suggestions appreciated! 

https://youtu.be/x1FCLUfgAKg

[philw]

Dunno. The first image, I would have my knees fully bent in a turn like that. They'd be forming about 90 degree angles. The second shot... same thing. That's not a "criticism" - I've no idea what knees are supposed to be up to in these turns... but I'd bend those suckers.

[johnasmo]

You have the right idea, getting the board higher on edge, getting your center of mass on the upside of the board perpendicular, and driving the knees down.  Lots of people say drive your knees, but what does it mean to drive your knees?  How do you do it?

Use the The Skeleton Dance to sort it out.

Dem bones, dem bones, dem dancing bones.
The leg bone's connected to the knee bone.
The knee bone's connected to the thigh bone.
The thigh bone's connected to the hip bone.

Think of it like as using your thigh bones (femurs) to drive your knees to the snow.  To do that, you need to position your hips behind them, even on heal side.  Rotate your hips to make it feel like your are pointing your femurs to the snow and then let them drive your knees down.  Keep your shoulders relatively level and don't reach for the snow and, voila, you will find yourself angulating more than ever.

Unless you are on a Skwal, you probably won't be pointing your femurs down on heal side, but try it as a drill before you discount it.  If your butt is out beyond the heal edge, your center of mass will likely be in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Treating your femurs like the tiller of a boat will help you swing your butt where it belongs.  There's a reason euro extreme carvers are always talking about rotation.  Physics and physiology at work.

Edited February 24, 2023 by johnasmo

[barryj]

2 hours ago, icebiker said:

I’ve plateaued

Hey Ice,

Yeah, some people are just capable of making Perfect Carves  even riding a Damn 2x4 from the lumber yard!....but perfect form can only take us mere mortals so far!

I used to obese over trying to emulate "This Mythical Perfect Form!" and latest training craze but lately when I have found myself at a plateau I've found it was my equipment that  was holding me back!   Replacing my 100+ days a season, 5+ year old Deeluxe 425's with the latest 425 model has really livened up my carving this season!

Additionally increasing my forward lean 30% more on my back boot has seriously  helped me get lower heelside turns!  All without any change to my "carving style/form"!

So what board you riding?  What bindings? What angles? What boots?

[Odd Job]

Need to be more patient on the edge. The pressure comes later.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Odd Job

[Neil Gendzwill]

Not that I’m the greatest at getting low but from the video it looks like you are too casual getting on edge. You need to get on edge more aggressively way earlier in the turn than you think you can. The other tip I found useful is to actively drive the back kneecap into the snow on toeside and the side of the front knee into the snow on heelside. 
 

From the stills, on the toeside to me your shoulders are too open and you are artificially reaching for the snow. You need more angulation. Try the drill of reaching for your front boot cuff with your front hand. This will line up your shoulders better and force you to bend your knees and angulate more.  Let the snow come to you, don’t reach for it. 

[TimW]

To me it does not look like there is too much wrong with your riding, just that you need to get more aggressive (and indeed by angulating the board, not by reaching for the snow). You would fool me into thinking that you are just cruising, but could do more. 

So what happens if you get more aggressive / lower. Do you fall? 

[Pat Donnelly]

[dhamann]

heelside looks lazy af (in a good way), but ... and for riding anything but steep terrain. getting lower may not be the objective when carving unless ec is the goal. define your "lower".

 

 

[Rob Stevens]

You can create a genuine NEED to be low by adding speed. 
To make it a more contained training cycle that you can analyze, work on one turn at a time…

Start at the side of the run and traverse as quickly as you can, somewhere just below your max and in a flexed position, roll to the new edge as much as you can before you get to the fall line. 

You’ll find as you do it more and more, faster and faster, that the forces in the turn will create a demand for a position closer to the snow. 

When you try and “get low” without any real need for it, you can make all kinds of weird shapes that have no basis in reality. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Rob Stevens

[pow4ever]

lots of great advice here!  it takes courage to ask and humility to take advice.  Good on you!
very quiet upper body nice form(tiny bit stiff).

speed (like riding a bike) help and steeper trail make the ground closer.
More rotation and more angulation and more dynamic (relax but to really weight (going into the turn) and unweight(coming out of the turn)

Who do you typically ride with and where do you ride?  online-carving coaching is good but hard to beat in person session  (not always possible)

As mentioned before:  
Getting lower/petting snow isn't necessary good yard stick to measure progress.  correlation != causation.
Ability speed control is a better litmus test (for me).  What do you feel is lacking in your riding?

[icebiker]

Awesome guys, many thanks for taking the time. Some great insight here. Lots to digest but today was a killer at work so will respond in more depth tomorrow. 

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I like the reaching for board advice.
 

As a regular left-foot-forward rider it’s helped me to try and remember to reach down with my left hand toward the heel of my front foot on toeside carves, and reach down with my right hand towards my toes on the rear foot on heelside carves. 

[lafcadio]

I was going to say rotate your hips more, especially on heel side. But @johnasmo said it way better. 
 

One thing I’ll add is that rotating your hips and driving your knees (and bending your knees) should cause your center of mass to get lower. For me, I imagine my body like a corkscrew and as things turn and align, everything drops lower to the board. The opposite is true as I unweight coming out of the turn to change edge. 
 

[Corey]

Note that there's nothing wrong with your riding either - very smooth and graceful!  You could happily cruise greens and mild blues for the rest of your life and still have fun. 

But if you want to turn sharper and get lower, take all the above and add more energy and/or speed. You can't lean more unless you're turning harder or you'll fall over to the inside of the turn. 

Don't think about leaning more as that leads to bad habits. Think about tipping the board up higher and turning tighter. The lean angle comes as a side-effect. 

Great tip: 

8 hours ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

As a regular left-foot-forward rider it’s helped me to try and remember to reach down with my left hand toward the heel of my front foot on toeside carves, and reach down with my right hand towards my toes on the rear foot on heelside carves. 

Tweaked for those with the sinister foot forward: 

- reach down with my right hand toward the heel of my front foot on toeside carves, and reach down with my left hand towards my toes on the front foot on heelside carves. 

I added a small change in bold. With this exercise, note that you're bending your body in a ) shape when viewed from the front or back, with your hips closer to the snow than your shoulders. 

Have fun with the learning process! 

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Yeah, I’ve always noticed that if you reach down towards your front foot on heelsides, you’ll end up being a bit too hunched forward on your front leg and your chest will drop down. When you watch racers or professionals their trailing hand tends to float near the rear foot on heelsides, or at least some middle point between their feet, which keeps their upper body upright and balanced.
 

That’s what I would suggest, but we all work a little differently! 

[icebiker]

On 2/24/2023 at 1:52 AM, barryj said:

So what board you riding?  What bindings? What angles? What boots?

I switch between a Ride Yukon 172W (9/8/9 SCR) and a Donek Axxess 172 (9-11 VSCR).  Boots are Deeluxe LeMans or Deeluxe 225's.  Angles are 55/50. My waist widths are 26cm due to big (31.5) feet. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by icebiker

[icebiker]

On 2/24/2023 at 11:42 AM, pow4ever said:

lots of great advice here!  it takes courage to ask and humility to take advice.  Good on you!
very quiet upper body nice form(tiny bit stiff).

speed (like riding a bike) help and steeper trail make the ground closer.
More rotation and more angulation and more dynamic (relax but to really weight (going into the turn) and unweight(coming out of the turn)

Who do you typically ride with and where do you ride?  online-carving coaching is good but hard to beat in person session  (not always possible)

As mentioned before:  
Getting lower/petting snow isn't necessary good yard stick to measure progress.  correlation != causation.
Ability speed control is a better litmus test (for me).  What do you feel is lacking in your riding?

Thanks!  As someone who bikes, I agree speed is part of the key. Among my challenges are a) fear (of steeps, ice,  and speed) and b) lack of frequent riding (maybe 4-8 days a season) and thus c) inadequate leg strength to be more aggressive.   I have no problems tackling steeps by sliding/fishtailing but committing to a carve on steeps is daunting.  So I've been trying to perfect my technique on the blues with the hopes of graduating to steeps in due course.  

One of the videos that intrigued me is this one.  While it is EC oriented, and I'm not aiming for that right now, it does seem to show that you can execute a deep, low carve even without a ton of speed going into the turn.  See 5:42 ... he goes into a laid toeside turn without a ton of speed? or is it my imagination?

In terms of who I ride with, it's my son (expert skier, not a boarder) and a handful of friends that also ski. No boarding companions.    I would love to get some in person coaching. I tend to learn best through visual/hands-on and feel pretty confident that I can build on my basic skills if I had one of you alongside as a coach!   I am in NJ, and occasionally hit VT.   Was just in Steamboat too...didn't see a single hardbooter there either.  We are indeed a rare breed. 

On 2/24/2023 at 9:38 AM, dhamann said:

heelside looks lazy af (in a good way), but ... and for riding anything but steep terrain. getting lower may not be the objective when carving unless ec is the goal. define your "lower".

 

 

I would define my "lower" objective to be in line with @Pat Donnelly's magazine pics above and @Neil Gendzwill's avatar.  Similar to the styles I see from many of the members on this forum. 

[icebiker]

On 2/24/2023 at 6:36 AM, TimW said:

To me it does not look like there is too much wrong with your riding, just that you need to get more aggressive (and indeed by angulating the board, not by reaching for the snow). You would fool me into thinking that you are just cruising, but could do more. 

So what happens if you get more aggressive / lower. Do you fall? 

I think that's right.  I think I need to concentrate more on reaching for the rail AS I angulate.  I think what I am doing wrong when I try to angulate more is I'm not bringing my mass over the board (by failing to counter the angulation with a reach for the rail or front boot).   This causes me to lose the edge when i get more aggressive. 

Mechanically everyone's guidance makes sense....a) Angulate more.....but then also b) reach for the rail to keep weight centered over the edge that's in contact with the snow (if you don't you slide out).   

So assuming I make more effort to do the above, I am still wondering about my knees (something a few folks on this thread have pointed out) and whether I am bending/flexing them enough.  I my heelside pic, it's hard to tell but my knees are decently bent.  Not like the rider in @Pat Donnelly's magazine pics, but bent nonetheless.  Yet in @Neil Gendzwill's avatar, his knees look mildly bent yet he is oriented nice and low just like the magazine rider.   Has me a bit confused to tell the truth! 

[icebiker]

On 2/24/2023 at 6:08 AM, Neil Gendzwill said:

Not that I’m the greatest at getting low but from the video it looks like you are too casual getting on edge. You need to get on edge more aggressively way earlier in the turn than you think you can. The other tip I found useful is to actively drive the back kneecap into the snow on toeside and the side of the front knee into the snow on heelside. 

Actually, your avatar demonstrates the "lowness" I aim for!  You're way too modest .   I agree I need to work on getting on edge sooner. I think one of the things I am doing to prevent this is as go across the slope, which is often to scrub speed (see earlier post about fear of speed), I don't have enough momentum to initiate an early on-edge turn in the opposite direction, so I lazily initiate in an upright position until I gather enough momentum to pressure the edge more aggressively as I turn.   

As for the back/front knee tip, yes, and actually this is a tip I picked up a long time ago from the BOL forum and it totally makes since. In fact I added a bit of Gilmour bias to my bindings to help accentuate this effect. 

On 2/24/2023 at 12:11 AM, johnasmo said:

Think of it like as using your thigh bones (femurs) to drive your knees to the snow.  To do that, you need to position your hips behind them, even on heal side.  Rotate your hips to make it feel like your are pointing your femurs to the snow and then let them drive your knees down.  Keep your shoulders relatively level and don't reach for the snow and, voila, you will find yourself angulating more than ever.

Gonna give that a shot...currently trying to envision what "hips behind femurs" should feel like...I think I understand but will play around next time I'm out.  

[skhil]

1 hour ago, icebiker said:

See 5:42 ... he goes into a laid toeside turn without a ton of speed? or is it my imagination?

It's not imagination. But Ben's turns are really short and well practiced. If one tries to do longer laid turn with speed like this he won't have enough speed to finish the turn.

When you are learning it's easier to go on steeper slope. There you can get low without risk of stopping or loosing balance. After that you can go on flatter slope and try to make the turn as compact as Ben does.

[pow4ever]

really nice riding for only going out less than 10 times a season.  Post in the ride board and i am sure someone is more than willing to ride together.  I am looking to get out and ride in VT/MA.
TOM - time on mountain is hard to beat.

i always thought i ride pretty upright but bending the back knee/leg definitely is needed for my heel side.
Hence the statement about being dynamic:  we don't want to hold a particular position too long; being rigid is tiring.  bend/get low when we need to and fully extend to get ready for the next compression cycle.

3 hours ago, icebiker said:

See 5:42 ... he goes into a laid toeside turn without a ton of speed? or is it my imagination?

Great observation but notice he stalled out or bleed off all the speed and he had to build up "potential energy"/speed for the next turn.  Hence i think as people progress they move the steeper run and preferred "harder" snow.  That's what i meant by Speed control - on any trail (flat or steep) able to link super aggressive turn top to bottom but also able to relax/enjoy the turn/process.  (low be damn or that's the side benefit and not the main objective).

i see some ride the same style steep/mellow but i like to mix it up based on the trail condition.  Make your own style.

Now i really need to get out and ride lol.... 

[BlueB]

"Getting low" probably means getting some body part (knee, hip?) close to the snow. To achieve this, more edge angle is needed. How much we can tilt the board is directly related to where (how far from the edge) is our COM in relation to the centripetal/centrifugal force at work (engineers/physicists are now going to crucify me for using discontinued terms). To increase that force, we need to go faster, or turn tighter, or add some rider generated pressure. Withlout increase in force, the COM needs to get closer to the edge (angulation). Now, to turn tighter, board needs to go higher on the edge and more pressure is required... The things are starting to get together, I guess? 

[Neil Gendzwill]

My knees should be more bent, I am a poor example in that regard. 
 

As far as committing early from a traverse, you don’t need so much speed but you do need commitment.   Especially going from toeside to heelside, you have to be willing to huck it blind and that takes some faith in your edge. 
 

ETA: look at this video, especially around the 5:33 mark where Corey talks about early pressure and carving the downhill edge. Watch him demo, he’s not going fast and he’s on an easy blue. (Aside: was this really 10 years ago? Yikes!)
 

 

[barryj]

On 2/26/2023 at 10:23 PM, Neil Gendzwill said:

was this really 10 years ago? Yikes!)

Yes it was!, Cause I was also there that day for this clinic! 

10 Years!  Double Yikes!    .......and yet, still quite relevant info today!!