Jack M Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 Do the slots in the baseplate of the TD1 line up with 4x4 inserts? IIRC, they don't, but I want to make sure. If so I may want to try this. Can anyone still using TD1s confirm? The discussion of the ALC binding got me thinking. Perhaps the ultimate freecarve binding setup would be Geckos with something like TD1s without the cant disc, and shims under the toe/heel pads to achieve cant and lift. I believe the height of the Geckos is similar to the height of a TD1 cant disc, so the height and weight of the total system would be similar to bare bindings without Geckos. So then you'd have the benefit of Geckos without the height and weight penalty. Of course such a binding could also be used on an isolation plate with similar benefit. The binding baseplate could be made thinner to allow for some flex if desired. I realize an F2 binding is already close to being this, but the height of their toe/heel blocks seems a little higher than what could be possible. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 I recall the top screws of the TD1 are on a larger diameter. This would be a fairly simple plate to fabricate. The devil is in the adjustability: If you use just slots on a 4x4 pattern to allow angle adjustment, you lose tip-tail adjustment. Maybe that's not a big deal with a 4x2 insert pattern on the board/plate. Needs some decent material thickness to support the bending loads, then you also create a stiff spot in the board. Not sure how much that matters. The concept sketches of a future Bomber binding I did with the Callens were basically an F2 with a slim center disc, thin rubber isolator, and the low Bomber toe/heel blocks. The SG binding is pretty close to this today but with the taller plastic blocks like F2. https://www.sgsnowboards.com/gear/sg-performance-bindings/ Both drive buying/making custom cant blocks though. Nice in that it's simple, bad in that you need to 3D print/fabricate if you want something really specific. I believe @pokkis did some direct mount of toe/heel blocks on isolation plates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted October 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 14 minutes ago, Corey said: then you also create a stiff spot in the board hence the Geckos... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 Make it ... They will come! Piste of dreams.... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Corey said: ...The concept sketches of a future Bomber binding I did with the Callens... Wow!...on a number of fronts. I would like to see those! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 32 minutes ago, rjnakata said: Wow!...on a number of fronts. I would like to see those! Picture the SG bindings with Bomber toe & heel blocks and you're 90% of the way there. I laughed when those came out, as they're really close to those napkin sketches we did after an epic powder day in Aspen. I didn't think of the spherical washers from below, so I was still struggling with keeping bending stresses out of the bolts. I don't like the SG's bolt access from the bottom (not a big deal with their jack screw for length adjustment, but a big deal with Bomber toe/heel blocks), so I considered spherical nuts, but how do you keep them from spinning? Catek did this with a small O-ring to preload the central spherical nut. Too many parts, too easy to assemble incorrectly, too finicky for my taste... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 I should add, the guiding principle of the design was reducing weight as well as manufacturing cost. The TD3 is an great binding, but it's also costly to make. The idea was to be able to laser cut the baseplate with only minor machining after the fact for the threads and the inner disc lip/recess. Arthur Mellen Wellington - "An engineer can do for a dollar what any fool can do for two." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 3 deg BP cant at full lift is 2 inches to top of bail - you could decrease a little more if you were willing to be a little mechanically unsympathetic to the Geckos and ditch the elastomer. Doubt you could go much lower and still have clearance between geckos and base plate at the back end of the mount Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted October 22, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 hour ago, Lurch said: BP cant LOL, oh right. I forgot about these... and I own a set. TD3 with standard 3 degree disc at max lift measures 1.75" to the top of the toe pad. Height of the Gecko is 13mm per their website. So the BP cant is buying you almost 7mm less height. That's significant. I still think a new design could be lower and lighter. It wouldn't have suspension (and neither does the BP cant), but that's where the Gecko or some other plate comes in. I was even thinking of having a custom board made with inserts to mount toe/heel pads right to the board. At this point I think I know my exact stance. But then there'd be no suspension whatsoever. Maybe that would be ok. I would only do that for step-ins though. Clamping standard toe clips shut would be using the board as a stressed member. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 19 minutes ago, Jack M said: I was even thinking of having a custom board made with inserts to mount toe/heel pads right to the board. Now that's commitment! Neat idea though. I'd aim for a TD3 baseplate circle diameter instead, then at least you can tweak angles if future boots are longer/shorter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Corey said: Arthur Mellen Wellington - "An engineer can do for a dollar what any fool can do for two." I like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 Drill out a td-2 and call it good. i was told recently that the mounted footprint of a binding has little to do with board flex. As we are playing with 3D printed riser/cants for soft boot bindings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 Looking forward to some experimenting over the coming months with a couple boards and riser configuration Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Jack M said: So the BP cant is buying you almost 7mm less height. That's significant. I've got some of the black gecko pads coming which are 5 mm rather than 10 (but offer no damping). Will fit them up, remove the BP elastomer and re-measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted October 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 hours ago, slopestar said: Drill out a td-2 and call it good. Haha, not a bad idea! 2 hours ago, slopestar said: i was told recently that the mounted footprint of a binding has little to do with board flex. I can't imagine how binding footprint wouldn't affect board flex. I believe that a binding can line-load a board at the front edge of the front binding or back edge of the back binding, and the board bends relatively abruptly at that line. I've seen that happen. I also believe the board remains flat under the binding footprint. I like how the Gecko spreads out the board/binding intersection so it's no longer a line. Assuming that the Gecko plate flexes and the bumpers squish a little. 1 hour ago, Lurch said: I've got some of the black gecko pads coming which are 5 mm rather than 10. Will fit them up, remove the BP elastomer and re-measure. Did you get the matching 5mm stealth insert extensions? You should be able to just subtract 5mm from your previous measurement, right? I'll be interested to hear how they ride. With no squish in the bumpers you'll be relying purely on the flex of the Gecko plates for any benefit. I'd like to try Geckos with the medium (orange) bumpers on the outer fingers and the rest hard (red). I'd also like to try the X-Plate again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Yup, got the kit ( thanks @RCrobar) - removing the BP elastomer is just an exercise to see how low it can go for this thread - I wouldn't ride without it. Just carpet surfing the geckos the fingers do flex a little with the reds, so blacks maybe more so - we shall see. I am largish @ 210 lb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 44 minutes ago, Jack M said: . I believe that a binding can line-load a board at the front edge of the front binding or back edge of the back binding, and the board bends relatively abruptly at that line. I've seen that happen. I also believe the board remains flat under the binding footprint. I like how the Gecko spreads out the board/binding intersection so it's no longer a line. Assuming that the Gecko plate flexes and the bumpers squish a little. I thought that to be true as well. The first round of printed riser/cants had the board contact horizontal to the edge and rotating to the desired angle. Planning to experment some this winter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 that is some seriously techno geek hardware; bet my 20yr old 100$ nitros can make the same turns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Jack M said: I'd like to try Geckos with the medium (orange) bumpers on the outer fingers and the rest hard (red). That's how I ride mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Geeko indeed. Really interested to see if they live up to the hype. Highly likely that Nitro (and you) make better turns @b0ardski , but as long as they make my turns better I'll be happy. If they don"t, I can always use them to get a job as a high- rise window washer For comparison on stack height, my TD3s on the std 3 deg cant bases are 1.75 inches to top of toe block, so the Geckos + BP lowers are only adding 0.25 inch overall. Pretty reasonable. And my suggestion to ditch the BP elastomer was a bit misinformed - you would need to face off the center ring to take out the end float. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Height of Gecko with std bushings is 15 mm, 10 for bushings and 5+ for carbon. Using those hard black ones not mush suspension given. With F2's you get total height 33mm, and if you build your own bindings with 10mm skatboard bushings and screw F2 toe and bail pieces directly to carbon plate then you get 36mm height with nice suspension. Naturally by having thinner bushings you could go lower but then you start loose suspension. I'm testing this winter setup where total height is 26mm with 10mm bushings. BTW when measuring heights it is best to do it without cantings due that will mess up comparison. And for Jack, i would not do such insert setup, it would be more tricky to get suspension there and reselling that board would be tough call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 Just thinking ... how much better would the Gecko + Half TD or Gecko + Toe+Heel Blocks be when compared to something just like the F2 Titanflex? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 I would not add blocks directly to Geckos due that could stress those pilars too much. Comparing can be done only by building and testing, and what is better for one person is or can be worse for other one BTW i dont have any Titanflex currently but height of it is bout 10mm heigher than std F2. And i get better touch with bushing setup that ever got with titanflex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) Double post Edited October 23, 2018 by daveo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted October 23, 2018 Report Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, pokkis said: I would not add blocks directly to Geckos due that could stress those pilars too much. Of course 38 minutes ago, pokkis said: Comparing can be done only by building and testing, and what is better for one person is or can be worse for other one BTW i dont have any Titanflex currently but height of it is bout 10mm heigher than std F2. And i get better touch with bushing setup that ever got with titanflex. Interesting interesting interesting. I've got a set of Titanflex I'm using for a powder board. If only someone made some of these mysterious carbon/suspension/binding frankenbindings, I would buy some and compare them head to head ........ Edited October 23, 2018 by daveo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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