Boot setup recommendations?

[Dw3]

So I have done 4 days on hardboots now and starting to feel very comfortable. I went out last week and tried to ride hard boots on a Kessler 162 on a deep powder day. I soon figured out that this was not working very well and switched over to my soft boot and a never summer 157 West. Had a fantastic day but now the stance on the soft boot board (0 back  25 degrees front) feels awkward. My plan is to stick with hard boot board as much as possible but what would anyone recommend for stance angles on the softies when days like that occur?

[RFKANGOO]

My stance on softies is 21 -6. Feels great for carving on my sbx board. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by RFKANGOO

[philw]

I have a Kesler 162 and it's too narrow and the flex is wrong for powder. It's not the way to go, as you've discovered. Hard boots do work on powder boards, which is how I ride them, but I realize that's not your choice here.

One thing I do know, however, is that it's a mistake to try to ride soft boots like hard boots: if you're going to use soft boots, you need to ride them the way they're designed. I expect you could work with a more forward stance than you describe, but you don't want to make the mistake of driving them like hard boots, because that's not how they work. You could also try using hard boots on a powder board, if you can get a stance which will allow you to pressure the edges (less steep than you'll have on the Kessler...).

[jburk]

Perhaps the amount of splay (difference between front and rear) is what feels odd now. Try leaving the front at 25 and bring the rear forward to 10 as a compromise, 

[bobdea]

Yup, 5-10 of splay in softboots is all I’m comfortable with. Too much is worse that none.

in hardboots even more sensitive, no more than 5 degrees and no less than 2......... 

[Dw3]

Awesome! Thanks for the info. Although I’m probably going to hang up the softies for the summer and just work on carves, I will be moving the splay closer. Also any recommendations for angles for hard boots on powder board?

[BlueB]

12 minutes ago, Dw3 said:

Also any recommendations for angles for hard boots on powder board?

Rear boot with a bit overhang over the edge, then whatever splay angle you liked for the front boot. 

[BlueB]

20 hours ago, Dw3 said:

So I have done 4 days on hardboots now and starting to feel very comfortable. I went out last week and tried to ride hard boots on a Kessler 162 on a deep powder day. I soon figured out that this was not working very well and switched over to my soft boot and a never summer 157 West. Had a fantastic day but now the stance on the soft boot board (0 back  25 degrees front) feels awkward. My plan is to stick with hard boot board as much as possible but what would anyone recommend for stance angles on the softies when days like that occur?

Several top ranked CASI evaluators ride 24 \ -3, not too different from what you tried... 

[MarkJeangerard]

There is only one way to ride effectively.

* Centered

* Duck (lower angle better)

* Twin Tip (wide enough for feet)

Especially in deep powder. But if we are talking about a general all around riding stance, in all conditions and most riding styles, being centered is the best place from which to dictate changes in weighting and angulation. 

Not being preloaded, so to speak, in either angle or inclination gives us the most opportunity in speed of response and range of motion. Which in turn gives us the most immediate transference from intention to reality. 

Do we need to learn new techniques? Not so much as simply repositioning those techniques we already know. In the end we become more stacked, relaxed, poised, and fluid. As well as less prone to getting all loaded up in unproductive postures and off weight scenarios that are hard to recover from. 

I used to have a killer - riding on the front foot in a centered stance position in deep powder - clinic. I wonder if I could still remember it. 

[BlueB]

3 hours ago, MarkJeangerard said:

There is only one way to ride effectively.

* Centered

* Duck (lower angle better)

* Twin Tip (wide enough for feet)

...

I used to have a killer - riding on the front foot in a centered stance position in deep powder - clinic. I wonder if I could still remember it. 

I don't know if I understood everything correctly, but I disagree with some...  

Centered, over the stance, in all planes - absolutely. Centered, like stance over the middle of the board - not so much, it depends on conditions and type of board. 

Duck - yuck - why would it be the only efficient way? There are multiple reasons why it is not, especially in pow. Over and above, almost all BX riders have mild forward stance and lot of good freeriders mild forward or very asymmetric duck. They are all very efficient. 

Twin tip - absolutely not, at least not in the true twin tip meaning. Especially not in pow. 

"riding on the front foot in a centered stance position" contradicts itself... 

[philw]

5 hours ago, MarkJeangerard said:

There is only one way to ride effectively. ...

No, there are many ways. My own entirely effective way is as follows, since you're so clearly in need of edification:

1. Piste/ resort powder. Slalom board, 45 parallel stance, set on reference with width adjusted to my leg length.
2. Deep resort powder with low traffic. Powder board, set on reference (which is default set back) etc and widen angles so I can pressure the edges.
3. Cat/ heli powder. Powder board, same stance as (1) because you don't need to pressure the edges if there's no bottom.

Duck? In hard boots? I think BB and others can and do ride that way sometimes, but it's not really the modern way for carving, let alone hard boots.

[bobdea]

19 hours ago, BlueB said:

Several top ranked CASI evaluators ride 24 \ -3, not too different from what you tried... 

This is not uncommon if you end up duck. Back in the dark ages (the 90s) the only duck stance I could get at all comfortable in was something like 18 -3....

my normal softboot angles typically are 21 12

[Dw3]

Thanks again for the replies, this is helpful

[SkoonyMcGroomer]

On ‎4‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 12:04 AM, BlueB said:

Duck - yuck - why would it be the only efficient way? 

Yeah, I can't imagine duck stance being an efficient configuration for my riding style.  I guess it's a function of one's objectives.  This guy clearly has different objectives... not that there is anything wrong with that.

My stance angles are board specific, depending upon board width, though always forward facing, with the toe and heel set at the edges of the board with 5*-10* of splay.

Edited April 24, 2018 by SkoonyMcGroomer

[daveo]

On 4/22/2018 at 6:00 AM, Dw3 said:

Awesome! Thanks for the info. Although I’m probably going to hang up the softies for the summer and just work on carves, I will be moving the splay closer. Also any recommendations for angles for hard boots on powder board?

I like 45f 35r on a 21.5cm waisted powder specific board. Works well for me. I like it.

[MarkJeangerard]

On 4/20/2018 at 4:41 PM, Dw3 said:

I went out last week and tried to ride hard boots on a Kessler 162 on a deep powder day. I soon figured out that this was not working very well... <many snips> ...but what would anyone recommend for stance angles on the softies when days like that occur?

I was answering this question. 

On 4/21/2018 at 11:04 PM, BlueB said:

...it depends on conditions and type of board. 

Duck - yuck - why would it be the only efficient way? There are multiple reasons why it is not, especially in pow. Over and above, almost all BX riders have mild forward stance and lot of good freeriders mild forward or very asymmetric duck. They are all very efficient. 

Twin tip - absolutely not, at least not in the true twin tip meaning. Especially not in pow. 

"riding on the front foot in a centered stance position" contradicts itself... 

There are reasons we ride with steep stances on alpine boards. Likewise there are reasons those who do ride BX with the stances they do. But I would consider both of those setups 1 trick ponies. Sure I can ride switch on a Prior 185 WCR with a 67/67 stance, and while I might try it in pow but not in trees, it certainly would not be my go to board for exploring a mountain in inclement weather. 

Duck - because range of motion. Symmetry of motion. Predictable suspension system. Repeatable techniques and postures in both forward foot stances. 

Twin Tip - for the same reasons as Duck. 

Lemme rephrase that last statement. "Riding in a center mounted duck stance (preferably a twin tip) with a focus on biasing our weight over the front foot in deep powder for the purpose of demonstrating to ourselves that there is more than one way to skin a cat."

The single most fun thing about the 'front foot in powder' clinic was that nearly everyone responded, at least on on some level, the way you just did. Every person I went out with was sold, in the end. 

On 4/22/2018 at 1:20 AM, philw said:

No, there are many ways. My own entirely effective way is as follows, since you're so clearly in need of edification:

1. Piste/ resort powder. Slalom board, 45 parallel stance, set on reference with width adjusted to my leg length.
2. Deep resort powder with low traffic. Powder board, set on reference (which is default set back) etc and widen angles so I can pressure the edges.
3. Cat/ heli powder. Powder board, same stance as (1) because you don't need to pressure the edges if there's no bottom.

Duck? In hard boots? I think BB and others can and do ride that way sometimes, but it's not really the modern way for carving, let alone hard boots.

The question wasn't about hard boots. 

To address your other points:

I have ridden powder specific boards, taper,  rocker, spilt tails... I can't remember what else. Not only did I not find any advantage in these designs but I found them difficult in any but their prescribed discipline and in some cases counter productive even wthin their own narrow specialties. Most powder specific boards are horrible switch. 

Switch - a contentious subject, I know. But if you aren't compromising your ability to pressure, pivot, tilt, and twist... or you aren't compromising range of motion, availability of productive twitch response, or poise and grace,  then why not use switch? 

Center mounted flattish duck stances on twin tip boards not only don't compromise those points above, it's the opposite... they facilitate those qualities. 

And more. What if you spin 180?  540? What if your are spinning flat on the snow? That stance will maintain a more survivable attitude in both base angle and weight distribution. Wedge yourself into a narrow cute or clump of trees with no way to turn around? Why bother? There is no "front" on a twin tip. 

Why ride duck center twin? 

Why ride the whole mountain cranked back in a manual with your hip over the tail? Would that not lead to easily over weighting the tail unintentionally? In those instances when you need to be over the front of the board do you not have an unnaturally long way to go to get there from your manual? Would that giant move not as easily lead to over exaggerated results on occasion? Is a rear mounted board any different than a built in manual? 

Why not ride duck center twin? 

The best turns in powder are dynamic. The legs move up and down, back and forth, edge to edge. They twist and porpoise and leap and dive! 

Why carry more than one board for all mountain riding. It just means you have to come down and go to the locker at some point. Life is too short. Put food and water in your pockets and go ride all day...

Center. Duck. Twin. 

 

...or however you want.

[guido591]

8 hours ago, MarkJeangerard said:

Life is too short. Put food and water in your pockets and go ride all day...

 

Indeed it is.  Too short to resign oneself to eating food that has been stuffed into a pocket!

Edited April 25, 2018 by guido591

[ScottAndrews]

 

On 4/24/2018 at 9:04 PM, MarkJeangerard said:

I was answering this question. 

There are reasons we ride with steep stances on alpine boards. Likewise there are reasons those who do ride BX with the stances they do. But I would consider both of those setups 1 trick ponies. Sure I can ride switch on a Prior 185 WCR with a 67/67 stance, and while I might try it in pow but not in trees, it certainly would not be my go to board for exploring a mountain in inclement weather. 

Duck - because range of motion. Symmetry of motion. Predictable suspension system. Repeatable techniques and postures in both forward foot stances. 

Twin Tip - for the same reasons as Duck. 

Lemme rephrase that last statement. "Riding in a center mounted duck stance (preferably a twin tip) with a focus on biasing our weight over the front foot in deep powder for the purpose of demonstrating to ourselves that there is more than one way to skin a cat."

The single most fun thing about the 'front foot in powder' clinic was that nearly everyone responded, at least on on some level, the way you just did. Every person I went out with was sold, in the end. 

The question wasn't about hard boots. 

To address your other points:

I have ridden powder specific boards, taper,  rocker, spilt tails... I can't remember what else. Not only did I not find any advantage in these designs but I found them difficult in any but their prescribed discipline and in some cases counter productive even wthin their own narrow specialties. Most powder specific boards are horrible switch. 

Switch - a contentious subject, I know. But if you aren't compromising your ability to pressure, pivot, tilt, and twist... or you aren't compromising range of motion, availability of productive twitch response, or poise and grace,  then why not use switch? 

Center mounted flattish duck stances on twin tip boards not only don't compromise those points above, it's the opposite... they facilitate those qualities. 

And more. What if you spin 180?  540? What if your are spinning flat on the snow? That stance will maintain a more survivable attitude in both base angle and weight distribution. Wedge yourself into a narrow cute or clump of trees with no way to turn around? Why bother? There is no "front" on a twin tip. 

Why ride duck center twin? 

Why ride the whole mountain cranked back in a manual with your hip over the tail? Would that not lead to easily over weighting the tail unintentionally? In those instances when you need to be over the front of the board do you not have an unnaturally long way to go to get there from your manual? Would that giant move not as easily lead to over exaggerated results on occasion? Is a rear mounted board any different than a built in manual? 

Why not ride duck center twin? 

The best turns in powder are dynamic. The legs move up and down, back and forth, edge to edge. They twist and porpoise and leap and dive! 

Why carry more than one board for all mountain riding. It just means you have to come down and go to the locker at some point. Life is too short. Put food and water in your pockets and go ride all day...

Center. Duck. Twin. 

 

...or however you want.

This guy gets my funky riding style! Centred, symmetrical duck, 32cm x 168cm twin tip. Nobody, and I mean nobody can keep up with me in the powdery glades. Rarely do I ride my tail, am mostly centred and often have front foot pressure, darn near falling into my turns. With this style, like Mark mentioned, your ability to make quick changes is greatly increased, which when you ride fast through tight trees can save injuries. And after 26 years snowboarding, switch is a must to keep things interesting for me, and when good at it, it is even funner to thread through the glades!

Edited February 26, 2019 by ScottAndrews

[b0ardski]

There is only one way to ride effectively. bull phuqing shit

* Centered

* Duck (lower angle better)

* Twin Tip (wide enough for feet)

duck is not required for switch, and that stance hurts my back knee and hip, aasi can kiss my ass over the tail of my 173 twin tip powder board right in zee meedle.

I may not do a lot of switch in trees but plenty enough to not get bored.

strap and laces are a pain in the ass and stepins are not

you duck into the park, that's were duck schite shines,

porpoise or plane in powder, the board matters waaaay more than stance

Edited February 26, 2019 by b0ardski

[b0ardski]

On 4/21/2018 at 7:28 PM, MarkJeangerard said:

There is only one way to ride effectively.

* Centered

* Duck (lower angle better)

* Twin Tip (wide enough for feet)

Especially in deep powder. But if we are talking about a general all around riding stance, in all conditions and most riding styles, being centered is the best place from which to dictate changes in weighting and angulation. 

Not being preloaded, so to speak, in either angle or inclination gives us the most opportunity in speed of response and range of motion. Which in turn gives us the most immediate transference from intention to reality. 

Do we need to learn new techniques? Not so much as simply repositioning those techniques we already know. In the end we become more stacked, relaxed, poised, and fluid. As well as less prone to getting all loaded up in unproductive postures and off weight scenarios that are hard to recover from. 

I used to have a killer - riding on the front foot in a centered stance position in deep powder - clinic. I wonder if I could still remember it. 

stacked, relaxed, poised, and fluid.

[ScottAndrews]

There is no right way, only the way we like that helps us enjoy what we are doing as thoroughly as possible.

Edited February 26, 2019 by ScottAndrews

[b0ardski]

sorry for getting pissy,  but I do think  the 15/15 duck out of the rental shop championed by aasi is cheating some off center people out of a more comfortable ride

10 hours ago, ScottAndrews said:

And after 26 years snowboarding, switch is a must to keep things interesting for me, and when good at it, it is even funner to thread through the glades!

me too but not duck

[ScottAndrews]

Am naturally a duck foot walker, so it is just natural for me in some way.

50% of the time, am riding switch, so no matter what, unless I am duck, there will be one direction that is going to feel not quite the same as the other, which in my brain is no good for my specific needs. Want things to feel the same one way or the other.

[BobD]

Maybe it needs to be mentioned in this thread that this is a carving forum. The sort of carving that 99% of people riding duck stance do, is not what this is about. There is no getting away from the simple fact that the angulation needed to hold a high edge angle is very difficult for most people in a duck stance. Instructors need to ride duck to model for those opposite stance riders who can't transpose a mirror image, and park monkeys/ freestylers. There are a few instructors that can still carve well at high edge angles with a duck stance, but most do not. Boardercross riders can use duck stance because they don't need to carve at high edge angles - the turns are banked. The average person who just wants to carve well in one direction on a snowboard is going to have a much easier time with a forward stance.

If you want to carve on skis, you don't center mount the bindings in case you might occasionally ride in the park.

Edited March 8, 2019 by BobD

[jng]

On 4/20/2018 at 4:41 PM, Dw3 said:

So I have done 4 days on hardboots now and starting to feel very comfortable. I went out last week and tried to ride hard boots on a Kessler 162 on a deep powder day. I soon figured out that this was not working very well and switched over to my soft boot and a never summer 157 West. Had a fantastic day but now the stance on the soft boot board (0 back  25 degrees front) feels awkward. My plan is to stick with hard boot board as much as possible but what would anyone recommend for stance angles on the softies when days like that occur?

@Dw3 Your answer is right in your question. Don't sweat it if you've only been on hardboots for 4 days. You'll get used to switching between hard and soft, but the first few days is weird for sure. Keep the angles on the soft setup that have been working for you. Don't overthink it. If after 20 days, you have a preference for different angles, then adjust. 

I switch between hard and soft boot setups all the time, and other than on the first few runs of the season, it takes no time to adjust.