Carving or Racing

[softbootsurfer]

Are they the same thing?  years ago I raced for 6 seasons or so in a town series here at Highlands, that was on Skis doing primarily Slalom and some GS...when running gates my Focus was not to Carve turns across the fall line but rather Turn only enough to clear the gate, load and release into the next turn...that was the way I was told to do it, and what worked the best...When I am Carving on my board I am not doing that, I am trying to do a continual motion all the way through the turn across the Fall line with a prolonged finish to the Turn with Anticipation for the next turn...this was also true running Moguls, you would Start a turn and immediately head to the next one...was I Carving, you bet!! but is it the same Carving line as what we strive for here, or at least some of us here, strive for? ...I don't believe it is the same, rather it is like 1/2 Carving, in that the Goal is not to finish or draw out the turn across the hill, doing that would be a mistake, often caused by our hands flailing behind us...there were conversations about Course sets for Snowboards many years back, I would love to set a GS course for Racers that focused on Flow across the Contours rather then sticking in the occasional wake up gate, thereby causing the Reactionary break in the Flow that you so often see in WC videos, no I am not saying they are not the Best and no doubt they can Carve the Best of anyone on the Planet, I am simply talking about two very distinct Carving Intentions...I am curious about what others here think about what Carving, the term so often used here, actually means to you? 

[TVR]

Carving and racing gates use similar motions, muscles and technique, but are all in all, vastly different from each other. 

Not the expert here, but racing with my son, we do different drills when going down the mountain. Light and clean (carving) to practice technique and edge control at low and moderate speeds, and pumping and gates to practice speed and often just edge control coming out of the transition landing and turning..... If I had to put a fine description on the two, carving keeps the board on the snow more and racing tends to have the board contact with the snow less...depending on race style and preference.....

 

Not the expert, but that is my observation with snowboards....

[BlueB]

We've been through these kinds of discussions many times, but this one is just in time for the summer blues...

Carving is a part of racing, but there is more to racing then carving only. 
Other then that, there is no such a thing as 1/2 carving... Tail and the rest of the edge following the same track as the nose is carving. Weather it is only 30 degrees of direction change, or a full circle, it's immaterial. 

Edited April 11, 2018 by BlueB

[Buell]

22 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Carving is a part of racing, but there is more to racing then carving only. . 

This. 

Most recreational carvers seek a flow between turns.

Racers are told where to go by the position of the gates. The gates are set to  distinguish between different riders abilities. Racing involves more complex techniques than freecarving. The ability to carve well is just one of them. 

 Hard boot snowboarders have benefited greatly from  technique and equipment developed primarily for racing. 

[Jack M]

Does USASA count as racing?  I don't know what I'm doing, but I gave Nate True his only losses on the season.

It was 4 races (2 runs each) in one day at Sunday River, on the Monday Mourning trail.  So, a lot of runs.  On my best runs, when I really felt in the zone, the gates almost disappeared, and I was just carving, and having a blast.  Normally my racing consists of Wednesday night beer league with 75 skiers and 2 other snowboarders around ski gates.  A race set for snowboarders, and used only by snowboarders held up much better, conditions-wise, so I felt it was very carve-able.  Plenty of offset too.  Let me tell you, my Kessler 180 is an unfriendly log until you get it up to race speed, then it is a Ferrari.  Load the tail up on that thing and launch it and you are going for a ride.

I believe the racer who wins is usually the one who carved the most and took the best line.   I believe this is part of why Jasey Jay Anderson has had such a long and distinguished career - IMO he seems to carve more than others.

Bob I think you should sign up and do some USASA racing and get back to us.  Even just one day.  You'll probably win your age group!

[softbootsurfer]

 

From the responses...nobody but TVR understood my question    Thanks

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/ester-ledeckas-path-historic-pgs-snowboarding-gold

[softbootsurfer]

compare the turns here, going way more across the fall line and lengthening of the turns durations both front and backside...around 3 minutes is really beautiful...can courses be set like this, sure, but there are not typically...Bee I meant 1/2 turns in relation to doing full carves perpendicular to the fall line...Thanks Jack, rec leagues are fun, I remember just getting way better after running gates...Enjoy 

 

[softbootsurfer]

and here an example of almost every Carve extending all the way across the fall line...how do you prefer your Carve ?

 

[ursle]

Let's put this carving thing in perspective.

Racing is ususlly on hard snow or ice.

If you're not in a race course and you're on hard snow or ice, you finish your turn across the hill to control your speed, if you're on a race course, you go straight down hill, schusshing around the gates, taking the fastest line possible.

Recreational carver vs Racer, same-same, if you can carve ice.

Skiers can load a ski and step off it creating a new shorter line to the next gate, alpine snowboard racers use a different line than skiers, but they use the straightest line possible.

[Buell]

I don't always go all the way across the fall line. If I am comfortable with the speed I will often do much more open turns at high speed pumping the board coming out of the apex of turns.

I only consistently make C carves across the fall line when I need to control my speed. Otherwise I am just surfing the contours of the run and "1/2 carving" all over the place. Other turns are held extra long.

I don't understand the necessity of a distinction between how long a carved turn is held. Carving is carving. One of the best carvers I have ever seen in person could not go fast enough. He almost never finished a turn but if he did, it was heavy. He ripped!

[BlueB]

2 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

 

From the responses...nobody but TVR understood my question    

That probably tells you it wasn't a very good question? Why you even mixed in the talk about racing, while you simply could have asked "how you prefer your carve", just like you did further down the thread... 

[Poloturbo]

Like that Sigi vid. Good flow and song. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

4 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

and here an example of almost every Carve extending all the way across the fall line...how do you prefer your Carve ?

 

Either are nice but I have to say Sigi in total control at mach effin schnell is more impressive to me. 

[Aracan]

I have no personal experience with racing, but I am told racers seek the fastest connection from point A to point B. When I carve, I make huge detours between A and B. While some of the techniques are similar, the goals and outcomes are very different.

[Jack M]

16 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

From the responses...nobody but TVR understood my question    Thanks

I got it.  My point was that racing involves more carving than you seem to think.  Sure it doesn't look like those vids from Sigi and PureCarve because racers don't make full "C" shaped carves, but like I said, I believe the best carvers make the best racers, like Sigi and Jasey.  When I'm freecarving I'm doing the full C thing to control speed on steeps.  If the slope and conditions allow, I'll mix it up with some race-style carving and let the board run.  It's fun.  I don't think you have to choose one style over the other.

By the way I was really encouraged by the scene at this USASA race this January.  Lots of kids participated, with a decent number on hardboots.  @TVR's son (11?) was a treat to see - very enthusiastic, very engaged, asking his coach how to do better.  I think this is our future.  I see very few young freecarvers coming up behind us.  Certainly none where I ride.

[dhamann]

10 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

I see very few young freecarvers coming up behind us.  Certainly none where I ride.

Indeed. I only see the younger crowd in hardboots only to run gates. Don't recall ever seeing younger riders freecarving. Freeriding seldom. Like after a race. Probably because they're on race focused equipment which isn't very enjoyable to freecarve. I think there's a common misconception regarding hardboots with the masses. A lot of us have heard such equipment referred to as a "race board" or sometimes a "carving board". Hence the pondering quandary. Get em on an MK. Holy crap that board is fun! Ginsu carving low angle slopes will hook any rider with a basic snowboarding skill. Race it? Sure. Just load the tail. 

[BlueB]

14 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

I see very few young freecarvers coming up behind us.  Certainly none where I ride.

Since I started running the carving sessions for staff, few years ago, the interest has grown hugely among the instructors. Many of my young proteges have bought used alpine setups. Next year we'll try to organise a hard boot specific clinic... Maybe this group can slowly pick the torch from the current old harboring crew, localy? Time will tell... 

[scottishsurfer]

I'm racing banked slalom tomorrow at my local mountain not exactly gate racing but it should be fun

[softbootsurfer]

21 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

I got it.  My point was that racing involves more carving than you seem to think.  Sure it doesn't look like those vids from Sigi and PureCarve because racers don't make full "C" shaped carves, but like I said, I believe the best carvers make the best racers, like Sigi and Jasey.  When I'm freecarving I'm doing the full C thing to control speed on steeps.  If the slope and conditions allow, I'll mix it up with some race-style carving and let the board run.  It's fun.  I don't think you have to choose one style over the other.

By the way I was really encouraged by the scene at this USASA race this January.  Lots of kids participated, with a decent number on hardboots.  @TVR's son (11?) was a treat to see - very enthusiastic, very engaged, asking his coach how to do better.  I think this is our future.  I see very few young freecarvers coming up behind us.  Certainly none where I ride.

Please don't put words in my mouth Jack...I have racing experience from my Skiing years, I have never said that they are not carving, I remember watching Stein and others Carving their White Star Kniessels,each and every turn started with a Carve, which you said then, they weren't Carving, my post refers to whether the people on this Forum are focused on Across the Hill Carving or Racing, they are different though both are Carving Eh?  There are course sets that are good for flow, Nastar and others such as for practice...I personally do not like watching the Herky Jerky when the sets are more for skis than boards, that is my opinion...

[bucky]

12 hours ago, dhamann said:

Indeed. I only see the younger crowd in hardboots only to run gates. Don't recall ever seeing younger riders freecarving. Freeriding seldom. Like after a race. Probably because they're on race focused equipment which isn't very enjoyable to freecarve. I think there's a common misconception regarding hardboots with the masses. A lot of us have heard such equipment referred to as a "race board" or sometimes a "carving board". Hence the pondering quandary. Get em on an MK. Holy crap that board is fun! Ginsu carving low angle slopes will hook any rider with a basic snowboarding skill. Race it? Sure. Just load the tail. 

The kids that are racing in hard boots also do a lot a free carving in between.  My daughter spends about the same amount of time per year practicing free carving in hard boots as practicing in the gates, which adds up to a lot of hours.  If you watch, you will see them laying out, taking air, riding powder, etc.  If you want to see a carved up hill, go to one of the Midwestern (and I assume other) USASA event and look at the runs they are warming up or free riding on. She's on the right : ).

[bigwavedave]

When I used to race snowboards (USASA), I used to complain about the lack of courses with across-the-hill turns. It was argued that those courses will become unrideable much quicker than a course where you are briefly carving edge to edge.

Ever wonder why there are no racers hanging out on this forum, other than to sell some equipment? And by racers I don't mean recreational NASTAR or USASA level. Chris Klug lives in Aspen. How often did he come and ride at the Expression Sessions held every year in his hometown?

Racers have a different mindset. In addition to loving the carved turn, they are also addicted to speed, competition, and navigating a race course, so free-carving takes a backseat once someone gets serious about racing. Sigi and Jasey Jay are exceptions. I've been to many FIS (NorAm) and World Cup races and it was rare to see racers taking a run for fun doing big round turns. JaseyJay was the only rider I saw doing big, laid out, round turns on the hill next to the racecourse in between races, coming to the bottom with a big smile on his face. It seems most racers at the "pro" level prefer going fast to making big turns that slow you down.

[TVR]

Congrats man... nice finish...

 

I let my son (11 years old) try a plate on his GS board (The Donek F Plate nicknamed the Donek Vist)after Nationals, as we always take the rest of the week to just play. I was looking to see if it helped him as his board is getting so soft for him now, and I wanted input to see what Sean would make him for his next board. Thing was, although he would bend the board for me, he spent the whole day carving giant 'C's and ending them with giant Euro circles..... I think once comfortable on a race board, the kids can and will find plenty of fun on them as kids will be kids... Not to mention it is funny to watch the patrol standing at the slow sign watch the kid do the full circle plus around him and the sign...