How does anybody survive more than a couple days on an SL board?!?

[Corey]

We're definitely on a similar page, Mr. Beckmann!  I prefer that small amount of damped suspension travel of the Sidewinders to take out some of the noise from the snow surface.  They make my knees happier, which lets me make more turns. 

For interest's sake: I've ridden Sidewinders with yellow E-pads all around in very cold weather - they compress and don't return fully.  Even though I could feel something like + 2 degrees of free play when standing in the lift line, I couldn't feel it or notice a difference on the snow.  Granted, this was on a GS board on a steep & narrow run that drove high edge angles.  I haven't had the same experience on a slalom board.  

[Neil Gendzwill]

FWIW I'm with Corey on the adaptability thing.  I blame all problems on my driver error first before looking at gear.  And we all know there are plenty of people who are the reverse.

[darko714]

On 1/22/2018 at 10:48 AM, Jack Michaud said:

[re: Kessler 168]:  I think there is definitely something special about the clothoid sidecut.  It's very smooth and versatile.  The board can be driven hard or you can surf it out.  It's like it has the comfort of a long board with the turn size of a short board on tap when you want.  It's been my go-to board so far this season.  It's a work out for sure, and you just have to get conditioned for it.  But it's not nearly as much of a workout as the MK I had before.  Exhilarating, but too many turns in one run for me at this point.

I have a Kessler Alpine 171, and my impression regarding the clothoid (variable) sidecut is the same.  It's good for getting through a NASTAR GS course without getting bitch slapped by the skiers' gates, and carving narrow, icy eastern hills without running down little kids or ending up in the trees.  The rockered tips let me get away with stupid moves that would throw me over the handlebars on a lesser board.  I wonder if st_lupo is trying to EC-style layouts on his SL racer.    

[jim_s]

15 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

YOU NEED MORE FLEX, Freedom, and less Compression.  Your choice, your boots. pick how they CLAMP DOWN carefully. Sidewinders.  I tried to make then 'tunable', but, they HOLD, and FLEX.  Otherwise, CATEKS OS-2's, 4-u.

 

So, I can't say I'm 'in the market' for yet another set of bindings (I haven't even yet been able to try out the F2 Titaniums), but @Eric Brammer aka PSR's suggestion of considering something like Cateks prompted me to look around a bit, and it appears (probably I'm the only one this is any news to?) that Catek is either out of business, or out of production, or in some indeterminate state or such - their website eventually leads to an "Internal Server Error", when you try to access the online store, the forums, etc. So, Catek is not producing the OS2 at this point, I guess?

I'd be hesitant to stake my binding future on something that isn't in production (ie, the Cateks; same thing about the TD/Sidewinders). If the F2 Titaniums end up being too stiff, would stepping down to the F2 CarveRS make sense? A large part of me says just to stick w/ the Burtons, esp if the Unicant isn't actually likely causing any problems (as suggested by @Beckmann AG). I just similarly worry a bit - if/when the day comes that something on them breaks or wears out or such, I'm then scrambling to find new parts on eBay, or to buy new bindings. I'd almost rather get it sorted out now, with a brand/model that I have reasonable expectations of being around for a while.

On the F2 Titaniums, I'm kinda wondering what would be the effect of making up some of those shims a little bit thicker, and out of an elastomer material... Hmm... (Though I might as well just get the CarveRS model at that point, I suppose...)

I really appreciate everyone's insight and advice!

[BlueB]

18 minutes ago, jim_s said:

So, I can't say I'm 'in the market' for yet another set of bindings (I haven't even yet been able to try out the F2 Titaniums), but @Eric Brammer aka PSR's suggestion of considering something like Cateks prompted me to look around a bit, and it appears (probably I'm the only one this is any news to?) that Catek is either out of business, or out of production, or in some indeterminate state or such - their website eventually leads to an "Internal Server Error", when you try to access the online store, the forums, etc. So, Catek is not producing the OS2 at this point, I guess?

I'd be hesitant to stake my binding future on something that isn't in production (ie, the Cateks; same thing about the TD/Sidewinders). If the F2 Titaniums end up being too stiff, would stepping down to the F2 CarveRS make sense? A large part of me says just to stick w/ the Burtons, esp if the Unicant isn't actually likely causing any problems (as suggested by @Beckmann AG). I just similarly worry a bit - if/when the day comes that something on them breaks or wears out or such, I'm then scrambling to find new parts on eBay, or to buy new bindings. I'd almost rather get it sorted out now, with a brand/model that I have reasonable expectations of being around for a while.

On the F2 Titaniums, I'm kinda wondering what would be the effect of making up some of those shims a little bit thicker, and out of an elastomer material... Hmm... (Though I might as well just get the CarveRS model at that point, I suppose...)

I really appreciate everyone's insight and advice!

Carve RS might feel a bit softer then the Race Plates, I'm not 100 sure, they feel different though, as the RS has softer base and RP has softer and less fine-adjustable bails. Speaking of which, the RS has thicker and better bails. 

An easy solution for the lifts on the RP is to cut the shims out of HDPE (cutting board). The very thin ones (Ikea) can be cut even with a good pair of scissors... Those fit between the base plate and toe/heel blocks, just like on the F2 or Snowpro bindings. You might need longer screws, depending on the height of the stack. 

Oh, yes, Catek has been out of business for many years and Bomber is uncertain right now. 

Edited January 26, 2018 by BlueB

[lonbordin]

@jim_s Catek is dead but their bindings will live forever. The very definition of BURLEY.  I'd note the prices seem to be increasing for the ones for sale. Their softboot bindings are very sought after.

Burton unicants... bit long in the tooth which is kinda scary for bindings. When were the last one's made?!

Bomber... I'm hoping for the best. A pair of TD2's or TD3's will last a long time.  Broken bails are a possibility. TD1's are not recommended for modern boards. I currently have the TD3 Sidewinders.

F2, I've had the standard metal plate versions and I'm currently riding the F2 Carve RS.  I'm 195cm and 113kg.  No problems so far... really nice and really light.

It's hard to beat the F2 Carve RS for price and weight.

[jburk]

1 hour ago, jim_s said:

On the F2 Titaniums, I'm kinda wondering what would be the effect of making up some of those shims a little bit thicker, and out of an elastomer material...

Unsure whether this is a good idea; you'd be continually flexing the mounting bolts that hold the toe and heel pieces, there's no built-in pivot on the F2s between the boot and bottom plate.

[jim_s]

23 minutes ago, jburk said:

Unsure whether this is a good idea; you'd be continually flexing the mounting bolts that hold the toe and heel pieces, there's no built-in pivot on the F2s between the boot and bottom plate.

Yeah, I'd have to rely on that little ridge/groove deal in the middle to act as a pivot point. If it were only compressing a tiny bit, this would prob be Ok, but as you note, that's then a lot of wear of metal bolts/t-nuts on plastic pieces that were never designed for that kind of movement. Really just kind of a mental flight of fancy (especially since CarveRS bindings can't seem to be found online anywhere).

[BlueB]

11 minutes ago, jim_s said:

Yeah, I'd have to rely on that little ridge/groove deal in the middle to act as a pivot point. If it were only compressing a tiny bit, this would prob be Ok, but as you note, that's then a lot of wear of metal bolts/t-nuts on plastic pieces that were never designed for that kind of movement. Really just kind of a mental flight of fancy (especially since CarveRS bindings can't seem to be found online anywhere).

Look for Proflex, same thing. 

[jim_s]

12 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Look for Proflex, same thing. 

@BlueB - I appreciate the tip - I didn't know that. (Unfortunately, they don't seem to be any more available than the F2's...)

Looks like I'm gonna have to stick w/ my Raceplates for this season, and/or try out the F2 Titaniums.

[BlueB]

Try this: http://www.yyzcanuck.com/shop/bindings/f2-carve-rs/ 

[lonbordin]

19 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Try this: http://www.yyzcanuck.com/shop/bindings/f2-carve-rs/ 

BTW- Out of stock in most common online retailers.

[Chouinard]

On 1/22/2018 at 10:01 AM, BlueB said:

On a hill of that size, all the one needs is a slalom board... or a shot AM. 

Coiler Nirvana first 1-2 hours when the hill is empty...Coiler AM to play pinball for the rest of the day.

[Beckmann AG]

Jim_S,

The Catek WC is unsurpassed if you''re trying to figure out, or optimize your setup. Given the time spent on the printer lately, you might want to find a set, run some cant/lift combinations until you find something that feels 'right' for the way you want to ride, and then print yourself the equivalent wedges for your F2s.

This would save you a lot of trial and error, as well as filament.

WCs should last your lifetime, so long as you don't lose the spherical nut at the base of the  kingpin.

[Beckmann AG]

11 hours ago, Corey said:

I've ridden Sidewinders with yellow E-pads all around in very cold weather - they compress and don't return fully.  Even though I could feel something like + 2 degrees of free play when standing in the lift line, I couldn't feel it or notice a difference on the snow.  Granted, this was on a GS board on a steep & narrow run that drove high edge angles.  I haven't had the same experience on a slalom board. 

It sounds like a situation where you were charging from one turn to the next? I think that kind of wobble would be apparent if you were more upright to the board ( as in fall line X-under), and then mostly in the transitions. 

Then again, maybe not.

11 hours ago, Corey said:

I prefer that small amount of damped suspension travel of the Sidewinders to take out some of the noise from the snow surface.  They make my knees happier, which lets me make more turns. 

Food for thought, if you're so inclined:

If you're getting the kind of noise off the board that bothers your knees, odds are the board is operating in conflict to the snow.  Which suggests some kind of 'input error'. 

If memory serves, didn't you have a thread last year or the year before regarding toeside/heelside asymmetry or transitions or something? There may be a connection in there.

Speaking of noise, a few years ago I stuck an acoustic guitar mic to the topsheet, and recorded a few familiar runs while wearing headphones for a real-time connection.

That was interesting.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Beckmann AG

[Beckmann AG]

10 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

I blame all problems on my driver error first before looking at gear.

How delightfully Da Vinci code. I suppose you didn't move the driver's seat or mirrors the last time you drove a car off the dealer's lot, relying instead on your adaptability?

It may not be obvious, but the point of equipment alteration isn't to change the way an athlete performs. If done right, it will enhance that athlete's ability to effect change in their performance.

Most of the time, athletes will model their movements around the obstacles presented by equipment, and then get discouraged when a change to that equipment doesn't immediately improve their ability to execute an inherently flawed movement sequence.

Then again, the tendency is to make equipment decisions based on an established identity and related preferences, rather than looking into the future toward what might be.

[Chouinard]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

If you're getting the kind of noise off the board that bothers your knees, odds are the board is operating in conflict to the snow.  Which suggests some kind of 'input error'. 

From a system interface perspective the resilient pads act as a robustness measure against the board/surface interface variability.

The board/surface input variability driven back to the knees is the feedback to the rider to back off until the noise settles down to a comfortable level or employ a device to dampen the signal and charge ahead.

While I agree that improper form could lead to an uncomfortable ride it reads that while riding they are in active use during which  snow would certainly shear before sending a signal back up through the bindings. That leaves a hard uneven surface as a probable root cause of discomfort and thus the utility of the pads. The input error is at the board/surface interface.

[Corey]

10 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Speaking of noise, a few years ago I stuck an acoustic guitar mic to the topsheet, and recorded a few familiar runs while wearing headphones for a real-time connection.

That was interesting.

I want to do this now. :) Though you don't need to amplify anything on hard 'snow' days.

My assymetry was determined to be a weight shift issue, well after the soft E-pads. Head problem, not bindings. 

[st_lupo]

On 1/26/2018 at 5:59 PM, darko714 said:

I have a Kessler Alpine 171, and my impression regarding the clothoid (variable) sidecut is the same.  It's good for getting through a NASTAR GS course without getting bitch slapped by the skiers' gates, and carving narrow, icy eastern hills without running down little kids or ending up in the trees.  The rockered tips let me get away with stupid moves that would throw me over the handlebars on a lesser board.  I wonder if st_lupo is trying to EC-style layouts on his SL racer.    

No EC stuff, my clothing budget won't allow it.  I think my biggest issue is that this is the first time I've tried an SL board.  It's kinda like having two unruly kids in the car: one unbuckles my seat belt, the other reclines the back rest; before I know it I'm waaaay in the back seat.

Fingers crossed for getting the Kessler out tomorrow!

Edited January 27, 2018 by st_lupo

[st_lupo]

On 1/25/2018 at 5:02 AM, barryj said:

2014 Olympic Silver Medalist Nevin Galmarini Is Tha Man and Boils Slalom Down to the Essentials in this Video!

AND If you don't remember in the Sochi Olympics Quarter Finals he got thrown out of his line and should have crashed but instead of giving up he rode SWITCH! (on a Slalom Board! at Mach I !!) through the next gate, Recovered and still Won!            That's SO Badd Ass!!

He's is so smoove!  His words and these images make a lot of sense to me.           

FYI at .10 you can see he's riding a modified Bomber BTS! 

Thanks for posting that video Barry!  I had seen it once right when I was starting out in hard boots a few years back and have been looking for it ever since.

[Beckmann AG]

On 1/26/2018 at 11:35 PM, Chouinard said:

From a system interface perspective the resilient pads act as a robustness measure against the board/surface interface variability.

The board/surface input variability driven back to the knees is the feedback to the rider to back off until the noise settles down to a comfortable level or employ a device to dampen the signal and charge ahead.

While I agree that improper form could lead to an uncomfortable ride it reads that while riding they are in active use during which  snow would certainly shear before sending a signal back up through the bindings. That leaves a hard uneven surface as a probable root cause of discomfort and thus the utility of the pads. The input error is at the board/surface interface.

I should have written noise as 'noise'.

When you get around to riding with some form of vibration sampler/recording device, you will probably find the following:

A constant background signal, largely dependent on surface hardness and board construction. This is like the pixellated static on an old-tyme television when you stay up too late and the station goes off the air for the day.

You'll get another signal, reflecting the turns you're making, the consistency of your turns, and the incline on which you're making the turns.

Depending on 'how' you ride, you may then find another signal on top of the previous, reflecting major/minor variations in how each edge of the board is engaging the surface, and whether or not the entire edge is biting consistently, or if the edge is biting at different angles along the length of the board.

It would look like a bit of a *flutter, and that flutter would most likely be more pronounced on the heelside turn.

(Inconsistent edge angle is generally due to twisting the board, and twisting the board has everything to do with boot-binding configuration and rider input. Those two being somewhat co-dependent, btw.)

This last signal is the one that will most likely affect the knees. Metal boards will damp the signal to the extent that the rider may not notice it, or be affected in terms of making turns one after the next, but that load is still coming back through the joint. Especially if the joint is under tension. The bumpers under the binding pad will alter the perception of the signal, but that doesn't mean it's gone. If the pads are largely compressed/bottomed out, as it sounds they are, the load is still translated to the knees.

Given that the typical physical response to instability is muscle tension, introducing any kind of 'slack' to the control system/interface will generally lead to more tension on the related joints, and that can then lead to acute discomfort.

Again, depending on circumstances.

As stated elsewhere, one of the reasons isocline plates reduce rider fatigue is that they reduce the tendency to twist the board, which provides better footing, thereby reducing tension in the legs. 

 

*This would be analogous to the hammering heard in a  hydronic heating system, when air is entrained in the pressurized circulation loop.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Beckmann AG

[lowrider]

Plates reduce the tension because they mask the signal necessary to stimulate the muscle response. Did i get that right ? Even though you still peddle with a plate on your board. I'll have to reread it  all tomorrow after i go over my lesson on " You can if You cant " !

[Beckmann AG]

15 hours ago, Corey said:

I want to do this now. :) Though you don't need to amplify anything on hard 'snow' days.

My assymetry was determined to be a weight shift issue, well after the soft E-pads. Head problem, not bindings. 

If you opt for real-time sampling, use only one ear bud. Otherwise you'll go insane.

 

Wasn't meaning to suggest the bindings were the cause of the asymmetry. More so that interface configuration could influence how a rider moved from one turn to the next, and that could lead to situations like you had, where a larger body part does the work of a smaller body part, which then influences the behaviour of the board.

Looking back, you were trending forward into the heelside, rather than centered. It appears that was also my guess as to the cause of your quandary.

"I started forward on toeside turns and fed the board forward under me. I started towards the middle on heelsides and fed the board rearwards, giving that hook at the end."

This is a common scenario when movements at the foot level go nowhere on account of loose boots, loose bindings etc. 

[Beckmann AG]

11 minutes ago, lowrider said:

Plates reduce the tension because they mask the signal necessary to stimulate the muscle response. Did i get that right ?

They don't mask the signal, they prevent the cause of it.

13 minutes ago, lowrider said:

Even though you still peddle with a plate on your board.

Pedalphiles tend to tweak the board at the turn connection, where the loads are minimal. Once the arc begins, the plate will tend to homogenize the edging inputs from the feet, improving grip etc.

[darko714]

21 hours ago, st_lupo said:

No EC stuff, my clothing budget won't allow it.  I think my biggest issue is that this is the first time I've tried an SL board.  It's kinda like having two unruly kids in the car: one unbuckles my seat belt, the other reclines the back rest; before I know it I'm waaaay in the back seat.

Fingers crossed for getting the Kessler out tomorrow!

So, how did it go?  Sounds like you've been having a blast.