How does anybody survive more than a couple days on an SL board?!?

[bigwavedave]

Wow, this thread really went sideways, but I'll go along.

I'll have to say I love the sidewinders because of how they dampen that side-to-side motion─much easier on the knees than the hard stop I felt on other bindings with sideways movement. I once mounted a Gopro right behind my bindings (Catek World Cup) and was very surprised to see how much my boots (Burton Reactors) rolled back and forth with each turn.

I would add to the SL board discussion by saying that modern SL boards (Kessler, SG, Rev (all of which I've owned & ridden) and probably F2, Oxcess, etc) are totally different animals than the older full cambered, glass SL boards with single radius sidecut─even though these are great fun, they're just not insanely fun, and have their limitations.

...and I've seen racers get pretty close to a EC turn in a SL course...modern SL boards can do things you wouldn't expect to work on an an ordinary little board.

 

[Chouinard]

19 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

They don't mask the signal, they prevent the cause of it.

For lack of a better description I will name the knee fatigue “nervous knee”.

Although I agree with the sequence of events I do not agree that rider input is the root cause of a nervous knee.

There are only two ways to solve a problem:

1)      reduce input variation

2)      become robust to the input variation.

Following your train of thought, if a riders’ poor technique was the root cause of a nervous knee then the introduction of a damping device is a robustness action if the poor technique cannot be cured (reduction of input variation). The damping device mitigates the poor inputs resulting from the poor technique and thereby prevents the establishment of feedback signals to the knee that cause the nervous reaction.

Consider the following decision matrix:

 

If the riders’ input is indeed the root cause then the end result of an uncomfortable nervous knee is independent of the surface. The nervous knee is a function of “poor technique” rider input generating an undesirable feedback signal resulting in a nervous knee leading to fatigue.  

Conclusion:  A “Poor Technique” rider should expect a nervous knee under all surface conditions even when riding a generous layer of forgiving powder AND a “Good Technique” rider would never welcome relief on a hard lumpy/uneven surface.  Not convinced either

If the surface condition is the root cause then the end result of an uncomfortable nervous knee is independent of the technique. The nervous knee is a function of the surface condition generating an undesirable feedback signal resulting in a nervous knee leading to fatigue.

Conclusion: Both a “Good Technique” and a “Poor Technique” rider would benefit from a dampening device when riding “Hard Lumpy/uneven” surface conditions.

In both scenario’s the damping device is a robustness action against the poor surface condition. 

Reality Check:  There is a strong interaction between Technique and Surface Condition but I would argue that the overwhelming driving force for a dampening device is not to overcome poor technique induced nervous knee reaction but rather the desire to ride beyond optimal conditions. 

 

[st_lupo]

On 1/28/2018 at 9:41 PM, darko714 said:

So, how did it go?  Sounds like you've been having a blast.    

I feel like I've been playing hooky.  Conditions haven't been what I've been hoping for (mixed powder and rain (wtf!?)) so I've been tentative with the Kessler.  I rode it a few runs on Sunday but we had  races that were monopolizing all of the prime real-estate, and everything else was mixed pow/ice and crowded so I didn't push it.  I do see what Jack was talking about with the versatility of the clothoid sidecut as larger/faster carves were easy to setup and go, but then I wasn't getting that pitbull terrier feeling that I was getting at the end of that first night.  I wound up trading out for my Nirvana Energy though and had a blast.  One thing was really apparent (maybe it is me maybe it is something with the boards), when I swapped over to the Nirvana I was turning about the same radius turn as I was on the the Kessler, but the Coiler felt like it was decelerating more in the turn.  I'm bummed I'm not making it to the hill this week, but looking at the forecast, next week should be excellent. I'll be really tempted to take a vacation day to just focus on the Kessler all gosh darned day.

[st_lupo]

Epilogue...

Today I did play hooky,  took a day off of work and had a solid day at the local hill.  After taking a couple of warm up laps on the blue Coiler (and then sending the sunny morning porn shots to my colleagues who were still in the office) I got the Kessler out.  The first two runs were a bit rusty.  I got in some solid carves that were a lot bigger than what the board is really capable of, but whenever I tried pushing the board to what I thought it should do, I completely lost it.  I learned a lot about some of my riding habits that just work fine on the Coilers but the Kessler just wont have any truck with them.  My biggest idiosyncrasy  is that I really press the nose in the turns, on the Kessler the nose bites in, hard, but the back (feeling neglected) just whips around and dumps me all over the place.  Centered is the key, but being the ham-fisted rider that I am, I started to over compensate but shifting my weight back, too much and at the wrong time.  Boy did that Kessler lock in fierce and it stayed locked in until I chickened and skidded out.  The depth of those carves, and the amount of debris and shrapnel that was spewed forth was truly awe inspiring.  I was a one-man death cookie creating machine and 10 hours later, those trenches were still the single most identifiable features on the most trafficated runs.  Some say that those trenches and the Great Wall of China are the only two man-made creations that can be seen from space.  On the magic run number three, the heavens opened, the sun warmed my face, and I was covered in that beautiful sweet-spot again.

The ride from then on wasn't quite as wild as my first night on the Kessler; it wasn't launching itself on every transition, but it was like riding a bottle of slightly pent-up fury; shiny and chrome.  Evisceration doesn't describe by half the edge-hold on that little 162 when angulating properly.  And easing up on the turn radius revealed that hidden under that black ptex top* there was a couple of Holley four-barrels. 

I've definitely found a new best friend today!

 

*Speaking of black p-tex top, that stuff is slippery.  I'd gotten spoiled by the cabonium tops on my Coilers and don't bother with stomp pads anymore.  That ptext though... if there is one thing that sticks less to it than snow, its boot sole, and I'm sure the lifty at the top of the hill has me pinned as a proper gaper.

[lowrider]

Could it be said that you don't ride a Kessler it rides you. Getting in the back seat is a bad recipe for any board but the Kessler back seat is one most talk about . On most days the Coiler's let you live another day.

[jim_s]

On 1/25/2018 at 8:57 AM, Jack Michaud said:

After years of riding Bombers I tried a board with Burton Race Plates on it.  Felt like rubber bands holding my feet to the board.  Very unnerving.  Last year I tried a pair of F2 bindings for the first time.  I sized them the way I would size any toe-clip binding - such that it takes significant effort to close and open them.  I felt no difference between them and Bombers while riding.  This makes me think two things - 1, F2s are a shit-ton stiffer than Burtons, 2, I don't know why racers think F2s are softer and more appropriate than Bombers.  Some people size toe-clip bindings such that they can be closed and opened with only one or two fingers.  Maybe this is what racers do?  I dunno.  Personally I think this is inviting disaster, because I've had loose bindings pop open before.

I think both @Eric and @Beckmann AG were discussing with me the relative stiffness of the old Burton Race Plates I had, compared to the new F2 Race Titanium bindings I'd gotten, with some consideration on how they might treat my little 135-140 lb self. (Exact actors may not be correctly noted, as I haven't pored back over the entire thread...) I finally got out on them this weekend, and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the F2 bindings!! I now see where the old Burtons might be compared to rubber bands holding one's feet to the board. The F2's have much less flex (like, about zero for me) - where the old Burton bindings used to allow a fair bit of side-to-side rocking. The F2's only rock due to the board actually deflecting underneath the bindings, LoL. :-) The pedaling effect is certainly amplified w/ the F2's. :-) The other great thing is that they seem to do a much better job of centering my boot along the center line of the binding - w/ the old Burtons, I had to make sure my boot was positioned correctly before flipping the toe lever down - the F2's sort of push the boot to the correct alignment position when I close the lever.

I made quite a number of setup/stance adjustments before going out this weekend (added toe lift for the first time ever, reduced heel lift and removed all inward rear cant for the first time ever, and widened my stance a little), so its hard to pin all of the positive changes just on the bindings, but the whole package was a HUGE change, and I can't help but believe the F2 bindings were no small part of that. (*Super Duper* THANKS go out to @SunSurfer for lots of patient input on helping me make a pretty major change to my stance/binding setup, which brought about a very noticeable improvement in how my board feels!)

[jim_s]

27 minutes ago, jim_s said:

I think both @Eric and @Beckmann AG were discussing with me the relative stiffness of the old Burton Race Plates I had, compared to the new F2 Race Titanium bindings I'd gotten, with some consideration on how they might treat my little 135-140 lb self. (Exact actors may not be correctly noted, as I haven't pored back over the entire thread...) I finally got out on them this weekend, and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the F2 bindings!! I now see where the old Burtons might be compared to rubber bands holding one's feet to the board. The F2's have much less flex (like, about zero for me) - where the old Burton bindings used to allow a fair bit of side-to-side rocking. The F2's only rock due to the board actually deflecting underneath the bindings, LoL. :-) The pedaling effect is certainly amplified w/ the F2's. :-) The other great thing is that they seem to do a much better job of centering my boot along the center line of the binding - w/ the old Burtons, I had to make sure my boot was positioned correctly before flipping the toe lever down - the F2's sort of push the boot to the correct alignment position when I close the lever.

I made quite a number of setup/stance adjustments before going out this weekend (added toe lift for the first time ever, reduced heel lift and removed all inward rear cant for the first time ever, and widened my stance a little), so its hard to pin all of the positive changes just on the bindings, but the whole package was a HUGE change, and I can't help but believe the F2 bindings were no small part of that. (*Super Duper* THANKS go out to @SunSurfer for lots of patient input on helping me make a pretty major change to my stance/binding setup, which brought about a very noticeable improvement in how my board feels!)

Oops, I think that @Jack Michaud was also one of the contributors to that discussion, too, IIRC! :-)

It really is awesome to have this whole community of experienced folks who are so willing to help everyone out and share the genuinely inestimable wealth of knowledge that is collectively held. I hope that we're able to keep this community going through all of Bomber's travails. (In addition to hoping that Bomber, itself, is able to weather the travails! :-)