After switching to UPZ, did you increase toe lift on the front foot ?

[colintkemp]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:37 AM, Jack Michaud said:

Why would you do that when the UPZ heel is so much higher?

But you already did change two things at once, your boots and your cants.  May as well go to 6 front 3 back now.  I think you'll like it.

Classic.  Count on Jack to call my BS!

Maybe I'm the slow kid, but the UPZ's apparent heel lift it not so apparent to me.  Indeed, to the contrary, I even felt a bit "flat" at 3/3, and wanted to get a bit more comfortable .  So, I threw a 6 on the back of my two "go to" boards (black 180 KST [middle] and metal 185 KST ("the meat hammer") [far right]).  I really like it.  So that is why I'm at 3/6.  But I wanted to stop tinkering--I had spent hours in the tuning room and was just sick of it (and, moreover, I realized I have no more 6s, just extra 3s).  So, that might be the real reason; I simply can't go 6/6...  (Does anyone ride 6 front, 3 back?)

On the UPZ topic (and sorry for the thread jack), does anyone have problems with getting a good, tight fit (bail/boot fit) using UPZs and TD2s?  I ask because, while I love my TD3s (which are now on my black KST, not the Coiler), I actually had my rear boot release on the meat hammer on Monday morning.  Luckily I was just gently getting from point A to B with my young kids skiing, so I just stopped myself and clipped back in.  But, wow, it made me quite worried (worried enough that I switched boards). A bail release on the meat hammer while riding hard  would be a disaster. I'm debating putting some OS2s on it until I can find someone selling TD3 standards.    (PS:  thanks to drschwartz, I'm getting an Apex for the Coiler; so in due course I'll post a detailed review of 180 KST vs. 182 NSR vs 185 KST, all with Apex v2.)

 

[SunSurfer]

43 minutes ago, colintkemp said:

Classic.  Count on Jack to call my BS!

Maybe I'm the slow kid, but the UPZ's apparent heel lift it not so apparent to me.  Indeed, to the contrary, I even felt a bit "flat" at 3/3, and wanted to get a bit more comfortable .  So, I threw a 6 on the back of my two "go to" boards (black 180 KST [middle] and metal 185 KST ("the meat hammer") [far right]).  I really like it.  So that is why I'm at 3/6.  But I wanted to stop tinkering--I had spent hours in the tuning room and was just sick of it (and, moreover, I realized I have no more 6s, just extra 3s).  So, that might be the real reason; I simply can't go 6/6... 
------------------------
(having problems with the window after editing colintkemp's post)

I ride 6/6, all lift & no cant with UPZ RC10s. Like the ride with the UPZ boot on 6 degrees heel lift. Suspect I'm getting the Jasey Jay effect (see previous post).
I have Bomber TD3 standard Intecs, with 3 & 6 degree discs. Built my own 3 degree wedges to go under the toe & heel blocks to allow me to move between 3 & 6 degrees on the 3 degree disc.

Edited January 17, 2018 by SunSurfer

[steven]

kinda on topic i guess, but I am having trouble getting enough topside leverage on my front foot with my upz and td3 combo. Toeside turns are great until i really pressure it due to high speed, or being near the "end" of my turn on a steep slope, and then i will get the chatter from the front part of the board when it won't hold anymore. I've improved this issue in the past with my F2 bindings by moving my front foot closer to the toeside edge, finding that fine line between the best leverage and toe boot-out. I've got the td3 toe piece moved as far forward as it will go, and at my angle 58ish, i can't get the boot far enough forward. I am getting (a little) heelside bootout, but can't move the boot forward any further in the binding. My question is, how detrimental would it be to my heelside turn if i align the td3 disc horizontally (across the board) and move the whole binding one "notch" towards my toeside? Is this commonly done? Should I just go back to my f2's where this was not much of a problem? The td3's are newish to me and i hoped they would give me more power, makes things more solid, etc., but i am having a hard time getting them set to work for me as good as the f2's. Any suggestions? thanks!!

[AcousticBoarder]

16 hours ago, colintkemp said:

Classic.  Count on Jack to call my BS!

Maybe I'm the slow kid, but the UPZ's apparent heel lift it not so apparent to me.  Indeed, to the contrary, I even felt a bit "flat" at 3/3, and wanted to get a bit more comfortable .  So, I threw a 6 on the back of my two "go to" boards (black 180 KST [middle] and metal 185 KST ("the meat hammer") [far right]).  I really like it.  So that is why I'm at 3/6.  But I wanted to stop tinkering--I had spent hours in the tuning room and was just sick of it (and, moreover, I realized I have no more 6s, just extra 3s).  So, that might be the real reason; I simply can't go 6/6...  (Does anyone ride 6 front, 3 back?)

On the UPZ topic (and sorry for the thread jack), does anyone have problems with getting a good, tight fit (bail/boot fit) using UPZs and TD2s?  I ask because, while I love my TD3s (which are now on my black KST, not the Coiler), I actually had my rear boot release on the meat hammer on Monday morning.  Luckily I was just gently getting from point A to B with my young kids skiing, so I just stopped myself and clipped back in.  But, wow, it made me quite worried (worried enough that I switched boards). A bail release on the meat hammer while riding hard  would be a disaster. I'm debating putting some OS2s on it until I can find someone selling TD3 standards.    (PS:  thanks to drschwartz, I'm getting an Apex for the Coiler; so in due course I'll post a detailed review of 180 KST vs. 182 NSR vs 185 KST, all with Apex v2.)

I ride 6 in the front and 3 in the back since last year when at TTC I tried it and everything just clicked better.

As for bail releasing, I have only had mine release on my TD3s when I have snow under my boot. I got a crabgrab "Scromper" which works nicely to scrape the snow off the bottom of my boot.

[Corey]

38 minutes ago, steven said:

kinda on topic i guess, but I am having trouble getting enough topside leverage on my front foot with my upz and td3 combo.

Step-ins or toe-clip?  If toe-clip style, you can flip the heel block around and reverse the bail to give more adjustment room.  You lose the stops that keep the bail upright though.  

If step-ins - not much you can do.  :(

[digger jr]

2 hours ago, steven said:

kinda on topic i guess, but I am having trouble getting enough topside leverage on my front foot with my upz and td3 combo. Toeside turns are great until i really pressure it due to high speed, or being near the "end" of my turn on a steep slope, and then i will get the chatter from the front part of the board when it won't hold anymore. I've improved this issue in the past with my F2 bindings by moving my front foot closer to the toeside edge, finding that fine line between the best leverage and toe boot-out. I've got the td3 toe piece moved as far forward as it will go, and at my angle 58ish, i can't get the boot far enough forward. I am getting (a little) heelside bootout, but can't move the boot forward any further in the binding. My question is, how detrimental would it be to my heelside turn if i align the td3 disc horizontally (across the board) and move the whole binding one "notch" towards my toeside? Is this commonly done? Should I just go back to my f2's where this was not much of a problem? The td3's are newish to me and i hoped they would give me more power, makes things more solid, etc., but i am having a hard time getting them set to work for me as good as the f2's. Any suggestions? thanks!!

Yes, do it. Do it now. Also maybe try pressuring your rear foot more on the toeside or get the board higher on the edge with rear knee touching snow, front arm reaching for front boot              ( angulation)

Edited January 18, 2018 by digger jr

[steven]

thx guys- Corey- mine are toe clip, and the issue is not heel adjustment, as i can move the heel block forward or back, but the toe clip is maxxed forward. I'm gonna try moving the binding itself towards the toe edge and see what that feels like. 

[SunSurfer]

10 hours ago, steven said:

I am having trouble getting enough topside leverage on my front foot with my upz and td3 combo. Toeside turns are great until i really pressure it due to high speed, or being near the "end" of my turn on a steep slope, and then i will get the chatter from the front part of the board when it won't hold anymore....... Any suggestions? thanks!!

Steven,

It's not the length of your wand, its' the way you wiggle it.

Erik Beckmann recently posted this video in another thread, though I've also been aware of it for a while. Around 1min 20 sec in, the subtitles and the speaker talk about why a racing ski loses edge control in the nose area if the torsional stiffnes of that part of the ski is not adequate and the edge angle becomes too shallow.
A ski has only one point where edge angle can be controlled, at the boot, the rest is design and construction to produce torsional resistance to twisting.
On a snow board there are two points where edge angle can be controlled, at each boot. Many riders here proclaim the merits of being able to set different edge angles under each foot, "pedalling".  Your problem is the bad side being able to pedal a snowboard.

Your problem is the edge angle at the front of your board is not being maintained, the tip is twisting to a shallower edge angle, and your edge is lost.

Following that line of reasoning to the end leads to a treatment that is the direct opposite of Digger Jrs suggestion. Your front foot is getting away with not doing enough work. It's not edge pressure that's required, it's edge angle control. 
The clues are also in where the problem occurs for you, on steeper slope toeside turns where you put more emphasis on the rear foot to try to get higher edge angles, and towards the end of your turns as you move your weight more towards the rear of the board in preparation for edge transition.

The cure lies in what you do with your front foot, not in putting more pressure on your rear foot toes. My take is that moving your bindings around is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, that you're not addressing the underlying issue.

You could try both suggestions, see if either makes any improvement, and report back. 

[Corey]

6 hours ago, steven said:

thx guys- Corey- mine are toe clip, and the issue is not heel adjustment, as i can move the heel block forward or back, but the toe clip is maxxed forward. I'm gonna try moving the binding itself towards the toe edge and see what that feels like. 

Ahh, big feet. I assumed small feet. Your plan is good, though you lose fine stance width adjustment. 

Bomber does have long baseplates available. Once they're back running again, call and ask. Or post a wanted ad in the classifieds. 

[steven]

thx sunsurfer- great info, makes sense. So what should i focus on with the front foot?

[steven]

so i rode today with the f2 bindings, and was much more in control, and smoother with my turns. It felt like i could be "cleaner" on steeps and higher speed/pressure toesides, even near the end of a hard turn. This could partly be that i was focusing on keeping the board angled higher on edge and on pressuring my front foot, but even when I slacked on my focus, it still felt better with the f2's, which allowed me to better center my boot over the toe and heelside edges. I am going to put the td3's back on tonight, and move the front binding closer to the toeside edge and try and center the boot better, and see if feels as good as it did today. FWIW i'm riding a coiler nirvana energy 168 with a deeper (shorter) vscr than normal, as a lot of my local trails are narrow and steep, and I enjoy the quick lower-speed carves. I ride 58/53 with more rear heel lift than front toe lift. not much camber on either. I love the way the board rides and holds and edge, but feel i may be asking too much of it with its deep sidecut on some hard turns. Still figuring it out, thanks for the input.

 

oh- lastly- I'm getting quad burn on the outside of my front thigh when holding a heeled edge. May try some outward canting on the front foot to help with this?

Edited January 18, 2018 by steven

[SunSurfer]

The changes will be subtle, not extreme. Work out how to adjust your technique so that you are conscious of your front foot contributing to holding the board on edge. That will also bring your weight slightly forward along the edge as a whole and more evenly spread the forces of the turn. Perhaps hold that a little later in the turn and release only when you're ready for edge transition. The key is understanding what it is you are trying to achieve.

Just read your latest post. Great!

Edited January 18, 2018 by SunSurfer

[steven]

Thanks SS.

[SunSurfer]

You may have the same issue on your heelside,  that is the balance of edge control needs to be adjusted so that on heelside your rear foot is making a little bit more of a contribution. Muscle burn is due to lactic acid accumulation, a muscle that is being asked to carry too much load.

[digger jr]

3 hours ago, steven said:

so i rode today with the f2 bindings, and was much more in control, and smoother with my turns. It felt like i could be "cleaner" on steeps and higher speed/pressure toesides, even near the end of a hard turn. This could partly be that i was focusing on keeping the board angled higher on edge and on pressuring my front foot, but even when I slacked on my focus, it still felt better with the f2's, which allowed me to better center my boot over the toe and heelside edges. I am going to put the td3's back on tonight, and move the front binding closer to the toeside edge and try and center the boot better, and see if feels as good as it did today. FWIW i'm riding a coiler nirvana energy 168 with a deeper (shorter) vscr than normal, as a lot of my local trails are narrow and steep, and I enjoy the quick lower-speed carves. I ride 58/53 with more rear heel lift than front toe lift. not much camber on either. I love the way the board rides and holds and edge, but feel i may be asking too much of it with its deep sidecut on some hard turns. Still figuring it out, thanks for the input.

 

oh- lastly- I'm getting quad burn on the outside of my front thigh when holding a heeled edge. May try some outward canting on the front foot to help with this?

Ha Ha,

 I’m riding a 170 NFCE  with something like 10-13-12 scr if I remember right, so yours might be one step tighter? You may just need to reduce the speed a bit:)

Are conditions pretty firm there? It’s downright hard snow in Utah right now.

Not ice coast conditions, but you definitely lose grip or chatter if you lose edge angle or push too hard. Great training conditions though to work on technique, so when we get some hero snow we’ll be, well , Hero’s!

Normally one would try a little more toe lift or less foward lean on front boot if your front quad is wearing out.

Great report. 

Think Snow!

SS  I think your hooked on carving :)

 

[Beckmann AG]

5 hours ago, steven said:

I'm getting quad burn on the outside of my front thigh when holding a heeled edge. May try some outward canting on the front foot to help with this?

Might be front foot canting. Might also be that the rear foot isn't complimenting the action of the front foot, ergo, the front end of the board bites more than the back end, and the front leg takes a greater part of the load associated with holding the board to edge.

Edited January 19, 2018 by Beckmann AG