Boot bias: centered on binding = centered?

[rjnakata]

Q: Would it stand to reason that centering the boot over the binding center (i.e. center of the TD3 disk) will always yield a  boot centered between the board's edges no matter what binding angle is used?

Edited January 2, 2018 by rjnakata
clarity!

[lonbordin]

If the binding is flat yes... once you add heel and/or toe lift no... but is  being centered on the binding that important?

I've been thoroughly convinced that having my front knee centered on the board and my boot "edges" at (or slightly beyond the edge) is more important in regards to setup.

[Corey]

If your board has no sidecut, yes. 

If there's sidecut, then the board is wider by your front toe and your rear heel. 

[workshop7]

8 minutes ago, Corey said:

If your board has no sidecut, yes. 

If there's sidecut, then the board is wider by your front toe and your rear heel. 

This is my thinking as well.  Every one of my boards with a set of Bomber bindings is adjusted the same.  I mount the heal and toe blocks all the way forward on the front foot  and all the way backward on the back foot.  I find this puts my boot toe and heel equal distance from the board edges every time.

[Aracan]

It also depends on the boot. If I am not mistaken, the center marking on UPZ boots refers to the center between DIN toe and heel pieces. Without those, the center marking gives a pronounced bias toward the toe, because the heel ledge is recessed.

[rjnakata]

5 hours ago, Corey said:

If your board has no sidecut, yes. 

If there's sidecut, then the board is wider by your front toe and your rear heel. 

Thanks for all the replies...

Corey's statement would suggest the front boot center will be forward of binding center and the rear boot center at or behind binding center (for toe and heel over the edges).

If so there are precious few binding(s) that will properly bias my MP26 UPZs I'm finding!

Edited January 2, 2018 by rjnakata
clarity

[Corey]

Yeah, I can just get my size 28 UPZ to be close to centered on the edges with Step-In Sidewinders on the front foot.  If using bails, you could flip the blocks and gain some adjustment range.  The rear foot has some range to play with.  

[jburk]

1 hour ago, rjnakata said:

If so there are precious few binding(s) that will properly bias my MP26 UPZs I'm finding!

I switched from TD3 SI's to F2's for this very reason, and still had to mod them.  If you go with a non-stepin F2 in a small size you shouldn't have an issue, but for an F2 Intec I had to drill an extra set of holes for the heel piece.  The plastic cover has an extra set of holes that served as a template (but you could also use the heel piece), and @www.oldsnowboards.com was very generous with his time and drill press to help me end up with a nice clean mod.  Thanks again, Bryan!

Used the heel "pressure plate" as a last-minute check to ensure that everything was lining up before we drilled the pilot holes.  The advantage of using the plastic cover as the template was that the t-nuts line up with the second set of recesses in the dampling pads.  Even moved this far in, I can just center the front foot.
 

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by jburk

[b0ardski]

you could turn the mount disc 90* (if it doesn't throw off your stance too much) to allow a side to side shift of the whole binder. I've had to do that for size 13 soft booters with 3 inches of toe hang

[AcousticBoarder]

1 hour ago, jburk said:

I switched from TD3 SI's to F2's for this very reason, and still had to mod them.  If you go with a non-stepin F2 in a small size you shouldn't have an issue, but for an F2 Intec I had to drill an extra set of holes for the heel piece.  The plastic cover has an extra set of holes that served as a template (but you could also use the heel piece), and @www.oldsnowboards.com was very generous with his time and drill press to help me end up with a nice clean mod.  Thanks again, Bryan!

Used the heel "pressure plate" as a last-minute check to ensure that everything was lining up before we drilled the pilot holes.  The advantage of using the plastic cover as the template was that the t-nuts line up with the second set of recesses in the dampling pads.  Even moved this far in, I can just center the front foot.
 

 

What size boot you working with? Those are small size f2 step in?

[jburk]

mp26 UPZ RC10 (2017), they're listed as medium Intec Titanium (21.5 -> 27.5).  They only seem to be available as either medium or large in the stepin version (no small size listed at either YYZCanuck or Donek), but do show as the "small" on the F2 site.  The extra set of holes in the plastic cover might only be provided in late-model versions, I bought these from Donek about 2 months ago, so I can't speak to earlier model years.

That last pic is a 55* front on a 18.5cm waist with the toe lift and a single outward cant wedge

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I deny everything , I don't even know who John Burk is?? :)  I mean JBurk :)

 

You did a nice job of centering your tiny feet though whoever you are!!

 

 

 

[Randy Kight]

On 1/1/2018 at 10:13 PM, lonbordin said:

If the binding is flat yes... once you add heel and/or toe lift no... but is  being centered on the binding that important?

I've been thoroughly convinced that having my front knee centered on the board and my boot "edges" at (or slightly beyond the edge) is more important in regards to setup.

Sorry to reply to an older thread. 

I've been very interested in this recently.  I just started using a new pair of SG Performance (F2 Titanium Race) bindings, where as prior, I've always been in Burton/Ibex or TD3 SW's.  I recall always trying to line up my boot center with the center of the binding.  I was in a hurry to setup these new bindings and with toe lift in front and flat in rear, it seemed that to get the boot center mark over the binding center, the sleds had to be moved very far forward, where the heel sled was moved forward to the 5th hash mark and the toe sled was moved forward to where it was flush with the sled base...beyond the available marks.  This looked strange to me at the time, even though the boots seemed centered on the bindings, and I instead simply adjusted the toe and heel sleds to accommodate my 27.0 700's and then made sure the toe and heel sleds were centered on the binding itself...same hash mark setting number on heel as toe.  Off I went to ride and had a pretty damn good day of turning...seemed sweet spot was easy to stay in, etc.

Fast forward to the following weekend, and my OCD crept back in prior to getting on the snow.  I moved the sleds forward to get the boots center mark over the bindings.  Went riding.  Similar conditions, but felt off...not as "easy".  Could have just been "off" myself...tired, etc.  

Fast forward again a day or so, and I'm back on BO catching up on new posts.  Started reading recent posts on another Gilmour Bias type thread, which I've read about over the years but never really gave any true thought to.  Wait a minute...hold on...I grabbed my board, set my bindings back to where the sleds were centered on the binding, loaded the front boot, compare the boot center to the binding center, and it looks back of center...maybe about .5 inches at most, but a little aft.  Check rear boot.  This guy seems closer to center than front, but still just slightly aft of center.  

So, is all this in my head...would I even be able to tell any difference at all between the two setups?  In effect, is this somewhat an illustration of Gilmour Bias, or am I simply finding I'm a little more responsive/comfortable slightly heel bias...or again, am I off my rocker and need some form of medication to quiet my brain? 

Like to hear thoughts regarding if you have experienced similar, or are willing to share your particular setup and why you chose such.

 

     

Edited March 27, 2018 by Randy Kight

[lonbordin]

7 hours ago, Randy Kight said:

Like to hear thoughts regarding if you have experienced similar, or are willing to share your particular setup and why you chose such.

I'm less focused where my foot is (as long as it's in between the edges and relatively evenly distributed) and more focused on where my front knee is relative to the board. I tend to follow this guide for setup.

I've found that in following the above guide and how snowboards are built one tends to end up with a little binding bias no matter what... some folks like more some less.  Really the last few tweaks of binding setup really comes down to personal preference and body mechanics.  I should add boot size and binding manufacture choices can also limit the range of choices you have and drive you to some type of bias.

[Randy Kight]

Thanks Longbordin. I’ve read Beckmann’s article several times.  I know he writes about toe lift and it’s effect on centering the front knee, but I wonder if biasing the Binding as well allows for more knee centering. Maybe he’ll jump on and provide opinion. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Randy Kight

[Beckmann AG]

Randy,

I"m quoting myself from another thread:

Regarding bias and boot shells:

It's not so much the toe and heel edges of the boot that matters, it's the transposed contact point at your heel bone and metatarsal heads that count. Those are the load bearing parts of your foot, and 'a' means of transmitting inputs to the board, so they should be located similarly with regard to the edges. When in doubt, bias toward the toes.

If that needs clarification or further explanation, check back in.

[Colozeus]

I'll add my .02 cents here, i just got back from another aspen trip. I made a few changes with regards to bias that seems to have helped me quite a bit. Mainly, i completely eliminated gilmour bias. This made a huge difference for me. i just centered the boots more or less like beckmann describes. This was my tweaking progression on my second and last trip of the season.

1. swtiched from 3/3 degrees toe/heel lift to 6/3 degrees toe/heel lift

       - resulted in a more neutral relaxed stance on board. much easier to engage edge and transition for and aft pressure throughout the carve

2. Eliminated gilmour bias and adjusted boots like beckmann recommends. 

      - this i feel made the biggest difference. my heel side carves felt way better and locked in.

3. Reduced stance width to about 18" down from 19.2ish.

      - This was the final nail in the configuration. After this last change, i feel completely relaxed while riding and my back knee is no longer fighting the board (or wathever the heck it was fighting). I had some of the best carving of my life and for the first time i could feel the board and experiment with weight shifting technique and earlier angulation. 

 

All of these changes were done one at a time with a full day of riding in between changes. Upz boots size 27 with td3 sidewinders. Coiler nirvana energy with 20 waist 10.9ish vsr 60f55r angles. I also had a custom footbed created earlier in the season and my boots were widened. It's amazing how well you can carve when your feet don't hurt and you have the proper setup. It could probably be tweaked some more but i feel my setup is now 95% perfect. not sure if it's worth chasing the last 5%.

[rjnakata]

6 hours ago, Colozeus said:

I'll add my .02 cents here...

May I ask your stats: inseam, weight, leg formation (bowed, knocked etc)?

[Beckmann AG]

On 3/28/2018 at 2:56 PM, Colozeus said:

All of these changes were done one at a time with a full day of riding in between changes.  I also had a custom footbed created earlier in the season and my boots were widened. It's amazing how well you can carve when your feet don't hurt and you have the proper setup. It could probably be tweaked some more but i feel my setup is now 95% perfect. not sure if it's worth chasing the last 5%.

Thanks for posting a follow up on the seasons efforts, and good to hear you worked out some of your issues.

The funny thing about going after that last 5%, is that you may find it's really the last 40 in disguise. Seemingly insignificant changes to interface can open doors to insight regarding technique, and then the refinement process begins anew.

Not saying that's what you're in for, but keep it in mind regardless.

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Beckmann AG

[Randy Kight]

Thanks for the replies you guys. Colozeus, how much bias were you using prior compared to what you are riding now?  

[Colozeus]

On 3/29/2018 at 8:42 PM, Randy Kight said:

Thanks for the replies you guys. Colozeus, how much bias were you using prior compared to what you are riding now?  

i had quite a bit of gilmour bias. I never measured it, but to give you an idea, my rear boot had about 1/4-1/2 inch toe over hang and more or less the same for heel overhang front boot. My boots are pretty much centered now. 

[michael.a]

On 28/03/2018 at 2:09 AM, Beckmann AG said:

Randy,

I"m quoting myself from another thread:

Regarding bias and boot shells:

It's not so much the toe and heel edges of the boot that matters, it's the transposed contact point at your heel bone and metatarsal heads that count. Those are the load bearing parts of your foot, and 'a' means of transmitting inputs to the board, so they should be located similarly with regard to the edges. When in doubt, bias toward the toes.

If that needs clarification or further explanation, check back in.

 

Still feeling the post-Easter effects so I might be a tad hazy here but if the manufacturer center line cannot be trusted thrn how could you transfer the center of your foot located inside the boot shell (obviously with footbeds/liners) to mark a reference point on the exterior? An idea with neodyme magnets comes to mind but wondering how you would approach the subject

[Beckmann AG]

8 hours ago, michael.a said:

if the manufacturer center line cannot be trusted thrn how could you transfer the center of your foot located inside the boot shell (obviously with footbeds/liners) to mark a reference point on the exterior?

First, find the center of your first metatarsal bone, as shown here under "determine cleat location' :

http://beckmannag.com/cycling/on-cycling-alignment

(  Maybe whack that spot with the round end of a ball pein hammer just to make it more sensitive. (This will make sense later). )

 

Second. In a similar manner, find the center of contact under your heel, and also find the distance from there to the most rearward part of your heel bone.

Looking at the boot shell in profile, measure forward from the outer curve of the boot heel  the distance from the back of your heel to the contact point, then add about 12 mm.  Make a mark on the side of the shell in that location. 

Then measure  the distance from your point of heel contact to the center of your first metatarsal (on your foot), and transfer that mark to the side of the boot shell.

Finally, put your foot in the liner, in the boot, and lightly tap the side of the boot in the area of the 'front' mark, and see if you can find the sore spot where you previously whacked yourself. That sore spot should verify the mark you already made on the side of the boot shell.

 

Then install the boot to the binding, and see where things line up.

 

And step away from the peeps. Them there is the road to ruin.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Beckmann AG