jtslalom Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 My softboot angles are 60 degree back foot and 57 degree front foot. My stance width is about 18.5 inches. I still ride my softboots like I am riding hard boots and have never gotten away from my steep angles. From time to time I will ride 15 back and front but usually only when the snow is very soft or I am either park or woods riding. Most of the time I am carving groomers so I ride some pretty steep angles. I have had a lot of people asking me about my stance angles lately and talk about how they are thinking about moving their angles steeper. Today a guy started asking me if it helps to carve. Funny but I really didn't know what to say because I really don't know of any other soft booters (except one other, Dave) that rides in such steep angles for soft boots. I think there may have been some threads about binding angles but I don't know if any one exists about steep (say 45 or better) soft boot angles. I'm curious if any other soft booter rides steep angles or am I a lone misfit. Thanks jt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 Hey JT I'm was ridding 60/55 but have backed down to 55/50 on my carving boards......(which I still get grief about considering I ride wide 22.5-23.5 carving boards) but like you, that's what works for me! I'm going to try 55/50 angles on my softboot setup with the Bomber Power Plates and Burton Step On's on my Moss PQ60 I would think 60/57 is getting up there for softbooting...........I would expect you'd get even better carving with adding a plate like Bombers Power Plates or Apex Gecko's Look at living legend Mark Fawcett's softboot setup with Geckos .....he is ripping and he looks like (at 1:23) he's running crazy conservative angles like 90/80 ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 My issue with uber-high angles is in the lack of function from the boot/highback. Toeside turns suffer some 'sluff+slide' control, but the leverage from the boot/binding straps is still enough to get up on edge nicely. But, the Heelside turn, once you're above 40*, is not even really using the highback for leverage (except very late in the turn). The exceptions would be if you use a modern 'power-wing' highback , or a vintage 3-strap setup. I have both, and I rarely go beyond 36* of angle in softboots (Some olden boards, it doesn't matter, as they're used only in powder). The highback I like the most is the one Tech-Nine made a few years back (I have T-9 Bradshaw bindings), as it is stiff, and the wrap sticks out a decent 2"+, so when I move my lower leg forwards and then out over the heel-edge, I can get a pretty decent 'early bite' into the turn. I've found that a 25cm waist is as narrow as I can go (w/size 9-10 softboots, no lifters) or I'll 'boot-out' mid-turn. So, on my Tanker 172, I run 33* F, 21* R, using the T-9 bindings. Even then, I need to be careful not to 'go vertical' on the sidewall, or drag will get me. No such issues on the ol' Gordo FF-151, which has Fat Albert as the base graphic! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted December 31, 2017 Report Share Posted December 31, 2017 Eric...............that;s a good point with the lack of heelside leverage with high angles with highbacks. But that's part of my rationale of purchasing the "Step On" setup..... My 55/50 angles and the rigidity of the Burton Step On binding and boot combo should be stiff enough to not need to depend on the Highback anyway......... we will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 (edited) SB with 20.5 " stance, 45 45 with added top strap and bolted ( locked ) high backs....same set up for the last 33 years on all Boards Edited January 1, 2018 by softbootsurfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sic t 2 Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 1 hour ago, barryj said: Look at living legend Mark Fawcett's softboot setup with Geckos .....he is ripping and he looks like (at 1:23) he's running crazy conservative angles like 90/80 ?? Id say 18/6 from 1:40 in mov 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 (edited) Re: angles. Your feet have a 'smart' (weak) axis, devoted primarily to maintaining equilibrium, and a 'strong' (dumb) axis, devoted primarily toward propulsion. (Sort of like Lenny and George in Steinbeck's classic, Of Mice and Men). They are, to an extent, interdependent, though equilibrium/stability takes precedent over propulsion. The snowboard in motion tends to be more reactive to inputs on the short axis, and more docile to inputs on the long axis. So if you set your bindings zero-zero, you're essentially using the various components (feet, snowboard) at cross purposes. Similarly, if you go 90-90, you may have plenty of finesse under light load, low speed, but as soon as the board comes to any significant edge angle, the boots will roll in the bindings and the feet will roll in the boots, negating any benefit gained by initial dexterity, as the joints involved are now compromised/immobile. In general, you don't want the smart, weak guy, doing the work of the strong, dumb guy. And vice versa. Didn't work out too well for Lenny and George. A combined effort though, is ideal. There may be no benefit to riding a front binding angle steeper than 60 (or less than 45) on hardboots (on a standard width board) or steeper than 30-35 on softboots. There are certainly good reasons not to. The splay angle, or angle difference from front to back, is often directly related to foot structure/support, and related issues with how the joints come together on up the kinetic chain. Which is another way of saying you should ride what's comfortable and solid, geared toward your interests, not what's trendy/consensus. BTW, where is your zero point? Edited January 1, 2018 by Beckmann AG 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 46 minutes ago, sic t 2 said: Id say 18/6 from 1:40 in mov 21 F, / 9 R. Very effective angles, btw. He can still go 'switch' as needed, affect toe/heel precisely, move the hip forwards as needed, and use the flex of the tail to 'pump' the finish of the turn. No 'booting out' with the lifters, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 4 hours ago, barryj said: Look at living legend Mark Fawcett's softboot setup with Geckos .....he is ripping and he looks like (at 1:23) he's running crazy conservative angles like 90/80 ?? Binding angles are stated such that 0 means your binding is straight across the board. So now you understand just how steeply forward jtslalom runs his softies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 So, if you run at angles of 40*+, my question is this; "When do the Highbacks affect your turning leverage?" As in, "Do They?", or are you simply lifting your toes in hopes of putting the board on edge? Also, do your 'softboots' transmit lower-leg motion to the EDGE, or just sag + roll laterally? I have (still?!) a pair of Kemper half-hard boots, that did indeed have a clip-in hardshell/Crampon sole, but they DO NOT transmit any Lateral Motion to a board's edge with any authority. Why? The LINERS BEND. So, then , why does the old 3-strap work, at pretty high angles? Simple, it anchors the lower leg into the rigid bit of the highback by way of wrapping around the boot, at it's top. Thus, a move both forwards and over-the-edge tilts the board with decent authority onto Edge, and the response time is within a second or 3 of a Hardboot shell. A Highback, set in it's normal position, with the binding set beyond 40*, is BEHIND the LEG for most of the turn, thus only giving edging control at a point when 75% of the turn has been committed to, with NO RECOURSE or Adjustment Possible. In Soft Snow, this can work, but the turns are asymmetrical, with the Toeside being the speed control arc.Power-wings only work out into the mid-40* range, and beyond that, your lower leg simply is 'out-in-space', not 'pressing' against ANYTHING to vector turning forces (thus, LIFT those Toes!). So, Bio-mechanically, what I've observed ,proven, and ridden these last 4 decades, kinda holds true.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKarver Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 8 hours ago, softbootsurfer said: SB with 20.5 " stance, 45 45 with added top strap and bolted ( locked ) high backs....same set up for the last 33 years on all Boards What bindings are you using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 8 hours ago, barryj said: the rigidity of the Burton Step On binding and boot combo should be stiff enough to not need to depend on the Highback anyway...... Barry look forward to that Burton step in report - think I recall @drschwartz saying he was ordering some too? maybe we can get some input from him as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticBoarder Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 Yeah, from my own personal playing with angles and talking with others, there's definitely a point where the steepness hinders more than it helps. Soft boots and bindings are designed to utilize the forward and backward motion to pressure and control the board, and usually have very little side to side rigidity. Hard boots on the other hand are a much stiffer interface designed to use the sides of the boot to pressure the board. This may be in lieu of front to back pressure or in combination with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 5 hours ago, McKarver said: What bindings are you using? They are made with Different Burton parts, supplied thankfully by Burton ( thanks Chris ) ...a stout High back, bolted to stay up, with a top strap made from an old leather belt added up at the top of the High back, from riding HB, I believe they offer me about 80% front to Back and maybe 60% Lateral of the HB I have used...60 years Surfing on a Surfboard, 30 years Surfing on a Skateboard and over 30 years Surfing on my Snowboard, I know what I like, I don't recommend it for anyone else...A Bottom turn or a Cutback, is an Incredible feeling I learned years ago, to me that is the Joy of Surfing, wherever and whatever I may be riding...this pic is Proof Surfing a month ago in Nicaragua and Surfing on the Mountain are 1 and the same, because that is the Vision I choose to See... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtslalom Posted January 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 I have Ride El Hefe bindings and Burton Ion boots. My riding style in soft boots with steep angles 57/60 is the same as my hard boot style. I jam my knees together and drive my turns with my knees pressuring the sides of my boots. However when i ride low angles it is probably similar to most soft boot carvers that use a lot of ankle flexion to turn. My riding style is very strange. I will admit that and most people question why I ride such steep angles. It works for me but I'm not so sure it would work for others. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-nut Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 30 / 12 seems to work best for me. As others have stated, I don't know how one could ride with high angles without a third strap as the boots just aren't cut out for the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piusthedrcarve Posted January 1, 2018 Report Share Posted January 1, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, jtslalom said: My softboot angles are 60 degree back foot and 57 degree front foot. My stance width is about 18.5 inches. I still ride my softboots like I am riding hard boots and have never gotten away from my steep angles. From time to time I will ride 15 back and front but usually only when the snow is very soft or I am either park or woods riding. Most of the time I am carving groomers so I ride some pretty steep angles. I have had a lot of people asking me about my stance angles lately and talk about how they are thinking about moving their angles steeper. Today a guy started asking me if it helps to carve. Funny but I really didn't know what to say because I really don't know of any other soft booters (except one other, Dave) that rides in such steep angles for soft boots. I think there may have been some threads about binding angles but I don't know if any one exists about steep (say 45 or better) soft boot angles. I'm curious if any other soft booter rides steep angles or am I a lone misfit. Thanks jt I used to ride with almost same setup like your binding angles +55/+40, knees together 15 years ago Then, learned that lower the angles are much safer and effective. I had two accidents that broke my leading ankle and outer bone (metatarsal). All of the incidents were resulted when snow was being too soft (spot or spring condition) while I was pressing nose hard (with front knee). When it do nose-dive, I felt that my front knee touched the topsheet. (I was on Marker's DNR boots and bindings with additional plastic tongue in the boot tongue). Ouch. there my ankle broke. Loved the tobbogan ride by co-workers. That took me complete few seasons and it is one of my main reason that I ride hardboots mostly. Now, I ride 30 front / 15 back. More centered. If I need to push it hard, I do it at center but start with ankle and then knee (new shape helps a lot). I think it works faster, safer, and much effective than knee or tilt alone. Edited January 1, 2018 by piusthedrcarve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 3, 2018 Report Share Posted January 3, 2018 On 31/12/2017 at 1:28 PM, barryj said: Look at living legend Mark Fawcett's softboot setup with Geckos .....he is ripping and he looks like (at 1:23) he's running crazy conservative angles like 90/80 ?? ??? What do you actually consider as 90? Boot right across the board, that 99% of people would actually call 0? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 Blue B - What! you don't understand the new Obtuse "adjective" Math? 90/80 is 21/9 Sorry, must have a case of Mathlexia - was good at Statistic, not Geometry! Really...always thought straight across the board was 90 degrees and zero was the nose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poloturbo Posted January 4, 2018 Report Share Posted January 4, 2018 38/22 with Ride El Hefe on a boardercross JJA metal. Was booting out on heels carved with less angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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