Help! Need advice for surviving in deep stuff...

[Dan]

Keep your bum up and the board down ;)

 

IMG_7758s.jpg

 

On a more serious note, a right board helps a lot. Combine it with flexible bindings and you can easily ride your hard boots.

 

First photo of a Dynastar 4807 that I've ever seen in the wild! They're so damn pretty, I can't bear to ride mine...

[BlueB]

First photo of a Dynastar 4807 that I've ever seen in the wild! They're so damn pretty, I can't bear to ride mine...

They are pretty, but they ride even prettier :) On that pow trip, I pretty (pun intended) much outgunned everyone in the group, except maybe the fastest skier on fatties.

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

I don't particularly like the deep stuff unless I can find a reasonable way down an easy grade without too much untracked.  The back bowl at A-Basin was something that I enjoyed because you could just surf down it easily and it was so broad that untracked lines could be found for a couple hours after open.  Floundering around in cut-up piles on a steep trail brings me zero enjoyment.  I have no soft gear and I'm not going off into the trees because I'm almost always riding on my own.  My tactics for pow days work like this:

 

1. Stay home.

2. If not (1), check the grooming report and find the green trails that were groomed right before open.  Set my bindings back and surf them the best I can.  Quite often I can have a lot of fun by carving broad turns around the people who are pushing piles.

[philw]

;-) It's an approach, but I can't help thinking that you're missing out.

 

 

Cut up crud is harder than completely untracked, but not much harder. I think it's easier on a board than on skis, you just have to plough through it. Speed is your friend for that, and for much else in powder. Once you've mastered crud, frozen sled tracks are the next challenge..

 

You have to be careful with the "bindings back" approach, generally. I'm not suggesting anyone here (who I have not seen ride) would do this, but .....  I do see a lot of novices sitting on the back of their boards. It's like skiers "in the back seat". For people who can probably ride ok on piste it's the most common problem. Their back leg burns, and their front leg is stiff. The board performs a sort of "rudder" action and they fall over less than before they adopted this defensive position, but really they're just avoiding learning to ride in powder. It looks bad and it is bad.

 

I'd put those people on a board like a Fish: those are fun and easy in powder. The stance on those is already set back for you, so you should not need to move it at all, and you can ride it all day without burning legs. It doesn't turn novices into experts, but it saves a lot of peoples' days.

 

One thing which sometimes tricks people is that they lean back because it pulls the nose of their board out of the powder, where they like to see it. Looking at the nose is not a good idea. If you're having problems penetrating powder then ride steeper or use a bigger board, but mostly more speed is what you'd probably want. Only turn when you have the speed to do it.

 

--

At risk of banging on...

Almost all hard boot riders you'll find in helicopters at least are great in powder - the standard is significantly higher than for soft boot people. I guess that a lot of hard boot people fail in powder because they're using the wrong type of board. It's not, once more, about the boots. Indeed, as below, you can't see the boots.

 

[Corey]

Phil, can you clarify something?  I think you're basically saying that you shouldn't worry about the nose being under the snow.  Is that right or am I misreading?  I don't get much time in soft stuff, but I hate the feeling of drag as the snow piles up against my front leg when I'm submarining.  

 

Your pictures make me want to rent a helicopter!  

[lowrider]

Would it not depend on density of snow ? Not all powder is the same. Try a thread what is powder snow ?

[Allee]

^^^ I was going to say that. I've ridden powder where it's pretty dense and drags on everything that's under it, and I've ridden powder that was so light that even when you cross tracks, you barely even feel it.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Allee

[philw]

...I think you're basically saying that you shouldn't worry about the nose being under the snow.  Is that right or am I misreading?  I don't get much time in soft stuff, but I hate the feeling of drag as the snow piles up against my front leg when I'm submarining.  

 

Yes, in that some boards are intended to ride low (the Fish and many more modern shapes). And looking down is a bad idea anyway ;-)

That said, you're of course right that you do get a lot of resistance from deep snow... if the avalanche risk is low then the answer is to ride steeper stuff; if it's not, then a bigger board is the only way to make that better; if that doesn't fix it, then it's not great. About one day each 365 I've had on snow has been like that - you can just about manage a straight line down the steepest stuff you dare ride, and it's not a lot of fun. Often moving somewhere else will fix it as snow is changeable stuff.

 

I suppose it's all a question of degree, but personally the only time I'd ever deliberately lean back is in breakable crust, to ensure the nose absolutely doesn't auger in. You see a lot of powder-novices leaning back just to ride - maybe 80% of the boarders I saw in the last two weeks were doing that, and about a third of the skiers.

 

Light and dry ("blower") snow is obviously different from "coastal" wet stuff, but I don't think good riders change their style because of that: it's not that different.

Edited January 6, 2016 by philw

[Corey]

Apparently I need to move.  Haha!  

 

I've ridden in 4+ feet of powder before, but that was MANY years ago and I was being towed by a snowmobile across the flat prairies.  There was a LOT of leaning back for that day!  

[Neil Gendzwill]

I honestly don't get why people have such problems with it.  So long as you don't get stuck in a flat section, you let yourself get up a good head of steam, bank that sucker over and flow.  Snowboards were made for powder, it's so much ridiculously easier than skis (or at least, the old skis I used to ride a few decades ago).

 

ETA: or maybe it's just that I've never used a true stiff, narrow raceboard.  My rides always have at least a 21.5 waist, and the most carve-focussed board I own is my Nirvana, which was designed to work well in most conditions.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[RCrobar]

Great thread, great information, just too bad that SWriverstone didn't have a better time in what should be so much fun!

I agree with PhilW and would like to echo his thoughts.

A few days ago I had a good powder day, a day earlier and it could have been a great day:)  I decided to use this day to experiment with two powder set ups.

For the morning I rode a 175cm x 27cm wide Swoard Dual with flexy plates and hard boots, a board I have had for a long time.  In the afternoon I rode a 193cm x 28cm Dupraz with soft boots, this is a brand new set up for me; this is also the longest and widest board I have ever owned!!  Both boards are said to be made for powder and piste', hard or soft boots.

Both boards were so much fun, hey it was a powder day:)

The Swoard is a better carver than the Dupraz, but still great in powder; traditional nose and freeride shape.
The Dupraz is better in powder than the Swoard, and is also a good carver; Surf/Swallow Tail inspires, shape.

The Dupraz is a powder dream come true for me, I didn't think it was possible for such a big board to turn so quickly.  Getting a bit of speed on a board with a long ST type nose, feeling the board rise to the top of the powder, having the feeling like it is impossible to sink the nose ... just awesome.  It was equally amazing at how the gradual nose rise and long wheel base of the Dupraz smoothed out the chewed up 'harbor chop' type sections.

I think the point is get the right tool for the job, a powder board as PhilW explained.  But even within the correct parameters of a 'powder board' there are pros and cons to given powder design.  As I am a bigger guy, that lives in a place with quite a bit of snow, near resorts that are not particularly steep ... the importance of float can not be overstated.  Don't be afraid to try a big board.

So many boards, so little time:)

Cheers
Rob

 

Edit - This is the video that inspired me to buy a Dupraz, it shows the 6'3" (193cmx28cm).

 

. Edited January 6, 2016 by RCrobar

[BlueB]

You have to be careful with the "bindings back" approach, generally.

Yeah, Phil, the suggestion of bindings back is very specific for the Dynastars, tried and tested by many riders. Those boards have nose a lot softer then the tail, so they ride better with the suggested setup, both in pow and on piste.

Me, I like riding the surface and surf-carving my turns...

 

Btw, your buddies at Pow Mountain treated us really well when they figured out we "knew" you :)

 

Scoob shredding:

[Rob Stevens]

SWriverstone. My condolences.

 

Next time...

 

1st. The board. Big, wide nose. Short, narrow tail. You need to get a board under you that will allow the kind of fore / aft balance you're more used to. That is to say, a set-up that will tolerate some pressure on the front foot. That said, it's very difficult to drive a turn from the front like you're accustomed to, on any powder board, at any skill level. The snow support is just not there in most cases. I've had to go straight for a 1,000 feet, in heavy snow, and lay into one turn, to get the same edge pressure as you'd receive from going 50 feet on the beginner hill and simply tipping the alpine board.

 

2nd. The slope. Do go steeper. You'll go about the same speed on an expert run in powder, as you would on a beginner run on your carving board.

 

3rd. Stance. Flatter angles will allow greater sensitivity to pressure from heels to toes. If you want to run higher angles, however, that's cool too. What you're trying to avoid (and stance angles can help) is too much commitment early in the turn. On an alpine set-up, it's soooo easy to bank the whole body into a turn and receive lots of support from the edge. Banking a pow turn is a sick sensation, but at first, a more "slalom" approach, with angulation and separation, between upper and lower body, will help.

 

3rd. Expectations. I'm talking about pressure feedback and your desire to "carve". Your turn on hard snow is accompanied by a certain amount of pressure feedback (the snow pushing back against you) that won't be there. It relates to the second part, as under high pressure, you can balance on a single pencil line very well. As there's less pressure coming back at you in powder, trying to balance on the edge alone will be almost impossible. Allow the tail to come out of the noses track a little, and you'll feel a more stable platform develop.

 

4th. The boots. Either loose hardboots, or soft boots. You can't have every little twitch you make transfer straight to the edge. As the support from the edge / snow isn't there, the edge will just go away. You need to be able to make subtle adjustments, that don't result in edge angle.

 

5th. Practice. I know you're from a mountain-starved region, but your area is not snow-starved, so far as I know. With that in mind, get yourself a bindingless board, like a Grassroots or Shark pow-surfer and head out to your local toboggan hill, or golf course. If there's a foot of snow and a pitch, you're set. Being "soft" with your movements will come naturally on these boards.

 

A few other things... The light f u c k e d you. If you can't see, you pretty much have no chance, no matter how good you are. Someone also asked which way you were falling. That's just about the best point made on this thread. If it was over the nose most of the time, a board with the profile I described should sort you out. If it's to the side mostly, then it's a pressure thing, where the board will help, but your technique will need to change. Patience and a more gentle application of pressure will be the key. Think about pouring water slowly from the tops of your boot cuffs, rather than all fast and splashy, like some piss-tank.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Rob Stevens

[philw]

... The Dupraz is better in powder than the Swoard, and is also a good carver; Surf/Swallow Tail inspires, shape.

... This is the video that inspired me to buy a Dupraz, it shows the 6'3" (193cmx28cm).

The piste part of the video I'm so-so with, but the trees look great and the guy is clearly on it, surf style. I've never ridden one of those boards, the closest would be the Burton Stellar which has at least superficial similarities. The hill looks mellow, although that may be the camera flattening it as his rooster tail suggests some speed. I'd like to know how he's getting that video angle, precisely, and will look more at that.

 

I'm thinking that the Dupraz and the Dynastar take similar design approaches.

 

 

Yeah, Phil, the suggestion of bindings back is very specific for the Dynastars, tried and tested by many riders. Those boards have nose a lot softer then the tail, so they ride better with the suggested setup, both in pow and on piste.

Me, I like riding the surface and surf-carving my turns...

...

Btw, your buddies at Pow Mountain treated us really well when they figured out we "knew" you :)

..

 

Sounds right. Some boards I've ridden (eg the Travis Rice thing, Salomon Sick Stick) definitely required bindings back - I think it's the way they're designed (as opposed to those boards which simply mark the reference stance as the holes one back of centre).

 

Oh, I'm glad the powder was good and they treated you right, although they do try hard all the time (Canadian service...?).

 

They had, I heard, a reasonable snow start to the season, although "the snow machine" needs to refill the tanks fairly regularly for the cats (because they are limited in where they can go). I think they're only running heli (where you can fly over old tracks) right now for that reason. I was in Blue River until New Years, and I didn't call into Whistler as conditions further north were at a 10-year best (lots of fresh snow, negligible avalanche risk). I almost went to Cypress last Sunday but after 14 days straight of powder I decided to skip it this time. There's always next time... ;-)

 

 

...

3rd. Stance. Flatter angles will allow greater sensitivity to pressure from heels to toes. If you want to run higher angles, however, that's cool too. What you're trying to avoid (and stance angles can help) is too much commitment early in the turn.

..

4th. The boots. Either loose hardboots, or soft boots. You can't have every little twitch you make transfer straight to the edge. As the support from the edge / snow isn't there, the edge will just go away. You need to be able to make subtle adjustments, that don't result in edge angle.

All good advice. I particularly like the first 3rd (sic), which I'd forgotten about. I played around with angles in my early days but always went "mellower" for powder. If you're on a powder board then it's wider so there's no need for really steep. These days piste fashions are less steep (for some of us), but for me around 45 parallel works well enough.

Also your 4th - although I'm a control freak, you're right that you don't need hyper-tight boots in powder. Your toes will probably freeze if you do that, but in any case "relaxed" works fine. I can certainly tell if my boots are in walk mode, but it's all less critical than on piste. I think Rob is right: loose actually gives better performance here.

[billyt.]

My 180 Kemper bullet with plates was a great deep powder board when I lived out west.

[P06781]

I still love Radair tankers for my go-to powder boards .  I ride them with roughly the same stance I ride on my alpine boards with a looser top cuff on my boots . I usually have a set of collapsible ski poles to help get thru transitions when cat skiing . Makes it way easier .  Central BC is the best !     Ride on 

[Duke]

  In the afternoon I rode a 193cm x 28cm Dupraz with soft boots, this is a brand new set up for me; this is also the longest and widest board I have ever owned!!  Both boards are said to be made for powder and piste', hard or soft boots.

The Dupraz is a powder dream come true for me, I didn't think it was possible for such a big board to turn so quickly.  Getting a bit of speed on a board with a long ST type nose, feeling the board rise to the top of the powder, having the feeling like it is impossible to sink the nose ... just awesome.  It was equally amazing at how the gradual nose rise and long wheel base of the Dupraz smoothed out the chewed up 'harbor chop' type sections.

I think the point is get the right tool for the job, a powder board as PhilW explained.  But even within the correct parameters of a 'powder board' there are pros and cons to given powder design.  As I am a bigger guy, that lives in a place with quite a bit of snow, near resorts that are not particularly steep ... the importance of float can not be overstated.  Don't be afraid to try a big board.

So many boards, so little time:)

Cheers

Rob

 

Edit - This is the video that inspired me to buy a Dupraz, it shows the 6'3" (193cmx28cm).

 

.+1 on the Dupraz!!

[b0ardski]

Jim - thanks for your insight. When I get some powder, I "revert" to softies. I like the way that I can feel what the board is doing underfoot. However, once one is used to plate bindings, soft boot bindings seem crude & clumsy. 

another sig worthy quote there John

 

I learned that flexy hardshells and long twintips rule in deep(1ft+) PNW snow, the deeper and lighter the snow the longer and wider the board to stay on top and reduce resistance.   I often bump the binders back on deep snow days. especially the rear foot. It's been working for me for 25yrs.

There's a perfect speed that balances your weight, board flex, snow density and displacement, and let's you surf the surf ace and lay out carves like an EC'er.