Steve Prokopiw Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 (edited) I took the plunge and followed through on an idea for mounting SnowPro bindings straight to a bomber plate.I have since ridden this setup on man-made in Utah(we need snow in UT) and on hero groomed in 'North Idaho'. It works.Really damn well.I am thrilled with the new connection I feel to the board.very slight difference left between this and binding to board mounting when at slow, harder to balance speeds.The clearance from board to boot sole is 2-1/8" at it's highest(rear heel) and 1-3/4" at the lowest.That's about what some traditional setups are without a plate.It helps that I have size 25 ski boots but as it is,this setup can accommodate a 26 as well as going easily down to size 20(not much use there I know).With the right placement I think up to a size 30 boot (with at least 60 degrees forward angle) is possible.The angles on the pictured plate are about 58 and 54 from what I could figure (I was shooting for 57-54 ) in my 'less than precise' mounting scheme. Next time I'll use a precision template.The stance width is 20-1/2" center to center. I used low profile nuts wherever possible,including a few not shown in the pics.I did tap and thread all 16 M5 bolts into the plate,so the nuts are just precautionary,since the threads hold a high amount of torque.I believe I can drop another 1/4" from here-but I do wonder about a 'through mount' method of mounting bindings to a plate for even more direct connection to the snow. Edited January 7, 2014 by Steve Prokopiw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Nice tinker job ! Is this setup used on your go to board and ridden most of the time or only in poorer conditions. You would conclude stack height makes a substantial difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Great game plan Steve, same as mine is, will send pics as soon I get my hands for my new plates late this month. Plate height is 18mm so total package will be low with lot of saved weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) @Lowrider,this setup goes on my THIRST 8x 188 board that was custom made for me by Mark Miller.It is what I would describe as a reasonably forgiving, bad ass beast of a carving board.The lower I have made stack height(I have also experimented with TD3 Sidewinders using my own pads and center discs to lower them by nearly an inch)the better 'snow connection' I have felt on this board.So,I would conclude (for me,anyway)that stack height is a major factor,for reasons similar to what have made softer plates more popular for riders who were not turned on by the earlier stiff plates that limited the rider's ability feel the board and 'snow connection'. @pokkis,I'm looking forward to seeing what you've come up with. Edited January 8, 2014 by Steve Prokopiw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fin Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Nice job Steve! Love seeing stuff like this and even better when done well. Are you going to drive on down and come join us at SES next month? Oh, and your warrantee is SO void....;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Nice job Steve! Love seeing stuff like this and even better when done well.Oh, and your warrantee is SO void....;) Nice! So when are we going to see the integrated sidewinders?! Baseplates are so 2013. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Tat Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Hmm I think you should take off the red plate mounts and take it for a spin. "Some people ride boards without plates and some people ride plates without boards." It would mean a new line of Bomber short boards for Fin. "Would you like your new Bomber plate with or without edges and p-tex?" Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Hmm I think you should take off the red plate mounts and take it for a spin. "Some people ride boards without plates and some people ride plates without boards." It would mean a new line of Bomber short boards for Fin. "Would you like your new Bomber plate with or without edges and p-tex?" Dave Kildie made reference to plates and boards in a discussion a few years back and his recommendation was to be sure to finish the race on the one with edges or something to that effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Nice! So when are we going to see the integrated sidewinders?! Baseplates are so 2013. Right after FIN makes a softboot binding to go on. Td3 baseplate... Please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 The lower I have made stack height(I have also experimented with TD3 Sidewinders using my own pads and center discs to lower them by nearly an inch)the better 'snow connection' I have felt on this board.So,I would conclude (for me,anyway)that stack height is a major factor,for reasons similar to what have made softer plates more popular for riders who were not turned on by the earlier stiff plates that limited the rider's ability feel the board and 'snow connection'. Typing out loud here, a few things come to mind: Depending on your cant/lift needs (which don't look severe) you could probably use TD1 toe and heel blocks in place of the Snowpro hardware. Either direct mount with cant shims beneath, or the same bolted to the bail plate of the Emery Course/Surf if you need macro adjustment and want more than two bolts through the carbon per boot end. Or you could make up your own blocks and use the bail/shoulder bolt assembly. That should drop you a good bit, and remove the plastic from the mix. Similarly, and this is said with sincerity, if you want better snow feel, find a better boot. Preferably something with a solid sole, whose bloodline has stood on more than one WC podium. The Tecnica line is probably the 'deadest' on the market, right ahead of Strolz. Numb plastic, AVS, and the air bladder fit system are doing nothing for your feedback loop. Binding stack is a lever that works in both directions. When the board gains the upper hand, so to speak, you lose 'feel' and accuracy at the expense of additional muscle activity used in neutralizing the board/rider relationship. Good on ya for following your muse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Thanks Fin! That motivates me to keep tinkering-(you should see what's next for the camera mount) @Beckman;Thanks for the suggestions.The application actually screams for Sidewinder SI uppers (possibly with simple toe and heel lift spacers for my own preference).Another benefit of the direct mounting is that it enhances the feeling of twisting the plate like a board,since the flex of the stock base plate is eliminated. On the subject of boots-whether or not the plastic is not as lively as other brands the boots work great for me and my feet. I've tried a few, and I know what I like.:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jp1 Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Steve, I am curious as to how the bindings are fastened to the plate. From the pictures it looks like some of the Binding Screws are threaded directly into the Carbon Fiber with no nuts or backers of any kind, is that the case or did you use inserts that are not visable ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Steve, I am curious as to how the bindings are fastened to the plate. From the pictures it looks like some of the Binding Screws are threaded directly into the Carbon Fiber with no nuts or backers of any kind, is that the case or did you use inserts that are not visable ? Hey jp1,the bolts are in fact tapped and threaded into the adequately thick carbon fiber.Some of the bolts pictured without nuts did have nuts installed later but a couple of them were left without them because of hardware clearance issues.Considering the amount of torque they were able to sustain,I probably didn't need the nuts but-peace of mind is supplied by the fact that each toe or heel block now has at least two or more nuts installed. Also,at some points the bolts portrude through angled areas due to the shape of the plate structure,so nuts weren't a good fit in those areas.I also shortened some bolts based on the fact I was not going to install nuts on them and to maximize clearance between moving parts.Another factor in the strength of the hold the bolts provide is that some of them are threaded through two of the thick layers of carbon layup as those layer surround the foam core of the main body of the plate. All in all,I'm pretty confident in the strength of the system,partly because the original plate is so strongly built to begin with. Edited January 8, 2014 by Steve Prokopiw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Cool stuff Steve. I spent a while trying to think of a way to do similar, but I kept coming back to wanting adjustability based on changing needs or board widths. Then my design became an F2 binding with less adjustability for a little drop in height. Kudos on making it happen! Generally, the highest stress a properly-designed bolted joint will see is during the final torque. The bolt is being stretched and twisted, and there's both friction and tension in the female threads. If it takes that combination, it's good for whatever it'll see in service. The key phrase there is 'properly-designed'; meaning the bolt will never go slack and clamp load between the mating surfaces is never lost. I'm unsure/nervous about tapped holes in epoxy and carbon, but at least you've got four per block, and it looks like there's at least one metal fastener per block in case the epoxy threads deform over time. If something happens, it'll likely be a progressive failure with ample warning that something is going wrong. Engineers prefer failures with warnings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Thanks Corey. Even we 'redneck 'engineers plan for contingencies when it comes to mitigating possible failures.The four bolts per block,the threading of the plate structure,and the two or more nuts per block(again some were not shown in pics but later installed) to ensure a strong assembly are all part of my basic understanding that,'whatever can fail,will'.I love tinkering as I was raised by a tinkering and creative dad, but have no intention of passing from this life any earlier than I have to due to equipment failure.:-) Edited January 8, 2014 by Steve Prokopiw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Slidewright make SS inserts that would work great for your application Steve. Drill and tap and epoxy them in place. They are 5/16 nc machine thread on the od and metric on the inside. Just order the inserts the tap is a standard machine screw thread. Don't order the Brass or Plastic as they are for ski binding (wood screws) If you have any issues with your present design they are perfect since the hole to install them is larger than the present holes you have swiss cheesed your BP with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Thanks for the info lowrider. It would be a more professional looking install to use inserts.One thing I've learned in my experiments with carbon fiber is that when laminated and layered into a strong and thick structure,it survives Swiss cheesing really well.When it comes to experimenting I'm a 'drill baby drill' kind of guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Nice job Steve! Love seeing stuff like this and even better when done well.Are you going to drive on down and come join us at SES next month? Oh, and your warrantee is SO void....;) Hey Fin.I just got a new job here in Utah,but I will do my best to get to SES for at least couple of days...and voiding warranties has always been part of the fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 The Bomber Store offers some really nice inserts, like the ones used in the original build. Got mine, just working out the canting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Nice work! I've tried the same before using F2 Intecs and a home made wood core/glass plate and pulled the inserts right out of the plate at the rear heel. Would be interested to know what the engineers here think about using heel and toe pieces with a smaller footprint and made of metal, not plastic, mounted straight onto a carbonfibre plate like the BBP. Thinking of directly mounting TD3 toe pieces as an example. Would the more concentrated forces applied make the plate more likely to fail? The SnowPros that are being used here have 4 bolts per component, and have some flex being made of plastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrutton Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 I've seen one user mount TD1's to a plate (Boiler Plate as I recall) and he reported no issues at all. I don't think that I would do it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrutton Posted January 13, 2014 Report Share Posted January 13, 2014 Love the alien stomp pad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Here is the setup in action.The SnoPros are still a laterally flexy binding even with the direct mount.But the improvement in responsiveness is realized in the transition from edge to edge.Definitely an enhancement. <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/p_WUnULveUI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> I'm looking forward to doing this with Sidewinder blocks.Hopefully by mid spring it will happen. Edited January 18, 2014 by Steve Prokopiw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 22, 2014 Report Share Posted January 22, 2014 Anyone ever run a set of Phantom's on a plate? From their FB page, "Who says you can't ride whatever you want on Phantoms! Split, DIY, Solid, park, pipe, steeps, pillows and good ol' pow laps. Don't worry, we've got you covered. Travis Young throwing down a sick method with some old school style on the Vail half-pipe." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) As promised her some pics of my setup First pic, total height from F2 fron top surface is 41 mm which is 7mm higher that normal F2 without plate Second one is full setup in place on board Third is crappy one on rear setup And fourth one shows that under binding i used Bomber suspension kit elastomer, just for test purposes Installing binding parts i used inserts from F2 bindings Edited February 7, 2014 by pokkis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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