Edge type - Magne-traction vs traditional

[Hilux]

So, I have a couple softbooting neighbours who rant and rave about Magne-traction where your edge is shaped like "~~~~", essentially a "steak knife" (at least that's what Lib Tech is comparing it to). I've been in softboots once in my life and I don't care to get in them again so haven't tried this technology. My neighbours claim it's the cat's meow, spectacular edge old etc.

The theory is that these waves along the edge are spaced at specific locations like under your toes/heel so you can engage the edge sooner and pressurize it. To me this design would seem to create leverage and effectively depressurize the rest of the effective edge along the board and/or if the board is up on edge it would appear that you would only have contact points at the peak of the waves (3-7 "contacts" depending on board) thereby decreasing TOTAL edge contact (little contact in the valley). From what I've read the other selling feature is for the kids in the park; you can detune your edges for rails/boxes but still have grip with these magic waves.

Then I was thinking, if this really is that awesome, surely Sean, Bruce, Frank and Co. (sorry to the other builders I've missed) would be adopting this...no? Or is it specific to playing in the park (even though my neighbours don't go near that stuff) and this creates the illusion of edge hold because the majority of softbooters are sliding and pushing snow around to turn (no offense to my friends who can actually carve)?

Either way, I don't buy it, but then again I haven't tried it. Thoughts?

*Brian/Corey, is this section okay for this post?

[boardguru]

I've a few friends who ride different boards with Magne-Traction type edges, Rossignol and Jones boards specifically. Most say they love it. They are all soft booters btw. But one of them who was a huge proponent of it when it first came out is now waiting on his new Donek Incline 170 that is definately not mag track. He says he is tired of not having the speed when turning, the board feels like it's slowing down in the turns, and is "grabby" when on edge.

Personally I can't say since I've never ridden one.

I'm sure that there are fans of it that wouldn't ride anything else now. Just my 2 cents.

Edited December 11, 2013 by boardguru

[dingbat]

Yeah, It's a trade off of speed for easy edging with poor technique. Also, think about how the Mag. Trac. works with the way most soft booters ride. Even when they are "carving" they're still side slipping some. Think about those nodes digging in and how that would feel like significantly more edge hold under those circumstances. Where I think Mag. Trac. is a real advantage is for riders who spend time running their edges down metal rails and box edges. What I've been told is the board sort of settles in to the rail between the nodes so the same, deep spots get duller, while the protruding nodes keep some sort of edge on them.

[philw]

What they said, including that it will be interesting to hear what those who actually build boards say.

My take...

If you think about decambered noses on race boards, they are there (as per the Kessler patent), to ensure you have an even pressure distribution along the entire edge in contact with the snow. Previous nose/ tail designs didn't work that way, resulting in edge contact pressure which was uneven. The effect of uneven edge pressure is that where the pressure is greater the board is more likely to break away. So for a race board ridden by a skilled rider, you want the pressure evenly distributed along all the edge, so that it breaks away at the highest force possible. Still with me?

Now look at Magne Traction. I'm not sure of the precise geometry, but you're increasing pressure (to help poor riders) where the edge sticks out, and reducing it where it crinkles in. So in practice you're increasing the point load where the edge is actually in full contact with the snow... therefore it will break away quicker than a straight race board edge. Which presumably is why race boards don't have crinkly edges.

I've ridden Magne Traction in powder and it's irrelevant there. I've no memory of being overtaken by anyone riding it on piste. Probably it works for park riders, who abuse traditional edges for obvious reasons.

[John E]

I've wondered about the same things. We can all speculate about the edge/snow interface as we imagine what is going on. Board builders and other experts can add their views.

I would like to hear from an experienced snowboarder (softboot or hard) who has actually tried magnetraction and hear their non-biased review.

[Bobby Buggs]

I have Rossi 1 Mag with it but I cant tell the diff since when Im in softies Im sliding on purpose.

From Rossi site, "Rossi's exclusive Magne- Traction 5S features 50% smaller Mag bumps for total edge control with a more forgiving feel."

not sure what that tells us

Edited December 11, 2013 by Bobby Buggs

[b0ardski]

I've ridden a lib banana rocker. Not a fan, training wheels for rockered boards skidding on hard/icey snowpack imo.

I can't really say how/if it's slower carving because I couldn't get the banana tips to engage in a normal carve but I could spin like a clothes washer and the edge grip between my feet was bomb proof, so it works. The camrock/c2 (haven't tried yet) with a bit of camber under the binding might be better all around.

[TLN]

Then I was thinking, if this really is that awesome, surely Sean, Bruce, Frank and Co. (sorry to the other builders I've missed) would be adopting this...no? Or is it specific to playing in the park (even though my neighbours don't go near that stuff) and this creates the illusion of edge hold because the majority of softbooters are sliding and pushing snow around to turn (no offense to my friends who can actually carve)?

Almost what I think about it.

If it is really that cool - first who will buy a licence and use it are the racers. Money is not an object there, the board + plate cost over $2000. But noone have a magna there.

May be this is because racers, and typically carvers can properly push the board and this makes all the edge stay on snow. People who don't push their boards that hard have three major points: tips, and one in a middle. So 6-7 points of a mange-trection really helps them. But when you push your board harder you have all your edge in contact, then you don't need magnetraction.

[leeho730]

Tried Libtech TRS 157 MTX in 2007.

The edges seemed to drag, especially if there was a patch of ice under soft snow, would sometimes hear grinding noise. Not very smooth. For me traditional edges felt like riding a motorbike on a sealed road whereas MTX edges were like riding a 4WD on a mud flat. Returned for refund after 10 days and never looked back....

MTX kinda makes sense to me since boards with detuned MTX edges for jibbing can still bite edges for spins at the kicker.

I believe if done right it could be really advantageous on icy slope. I believe Lindsey Vonn talked about it?

http://www.denverpost.com/politics/ci_11435013

Would be interested to see how her serrated edges look like.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dano]

WTF? This really sounds kind of dangerous...

My brother in law got his rotator cuff smashed by a hit and run Jibber doing blind jumps

and was down for a long time, but it might have been fatal with a 145 cm steak knife.

Though now I wonder if a magna edged board might be just the thing for carving ice coast steeps without gaining too much speed.

[Donek]

Carvers and racers sharpen their edges, jibbers don't. Skilled Chef's sharpen their Chef's knives; the average steak eater doesn't. A steak knife will leave a ragged torn cut and a good chef's knife will slice the same meat with less effort and make a very clean cut. Serrated knives and snowboards are effective at getting the job done, but do a messy job, typically requiring more force to push the blade through the substrate. As a result the wavy edge will slow the board down. I think most manufacturers of alpine or carving boards would compare themselves with the maker of a fine knife while, from the descriptions above, Lib Tech compares themselves to a steak knife manufacturer.

[CMC]

Great analogy Sean. Can you please pass the fine wine, the filet mignon, and of course, the fine Donek knife?....

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Anyone remember the "ICE" edge??

It was a technique of basically cutting another parallel groove along the edge , sort of a slot or valley. Been a while since I have seen it offered or advertised. There was also the "DUAL" edge of the long gone snowboard maker Hobbie.

Sorry , a flash back occurred, now back to the topic at hand.

Not to be confused with "Dual Camber" , sorry , that just slipped out.

[Dan]

Not to be confused with "Dual Camber" , sorry , that just slipped out.

LOL, their website is still up: <a href="http://www.incaempire.com/home.htm">http://www.incaempire.com</a>. I actually demo'd one of their boards about my second season of snowboarding, when I was just a little beyond consistently linking skidded turns. It seemed to work pretty good at the time, but now I know better. ;-)

[slopestar]

As a softbooter here in carving country and having tried c2bx with camber and rocker. All I can say is its a crutch for those who can't. Advantage in absolute crud/cut/icy steeps but otherwise there to bring more confidence to the average gaper. Extra confidence means one more idiot to watch out for bombing a run while we are carving back uphill. My softboot friends love it but they can't match a carver turn for turn. Thank you to those that provide the tools needed to do the job right. Let the masses eat steak. I'll take my filet rare...

[kieran]

Anyone remember the "ICE" edge??

It was a technique of basically cutting another parallel groove along the edge , sort of a slot or valley. Been a while since I have seen it offered or advertised.

like the base edge profile of an ice hockey blade? i've wondered about a corner-block style edge, damned if i know how one would maintain it though — and it'd have half the life expectancy of a conventional edge.

[Donek]

pretty similar:

http://www.incaempire.com/home.htm

http://neversummer.com/snowboard-tech/

[Beckmann AG]

^^Not so much.

Clamp a ski, base up, to the table of your favorite high speed milling apparatus. Mill a groove, diameter maybe 1/4 the width of the base edge, into said edge, maybe 1mm in depth. This groove would be located between the toe and heel of the bindings, just slightly shorter than the length of the boot sole. Does it work? Sure, for some applications/surfaces. However, just like an eroded base, this process makes slipping, skidding, and drifting, (particularly on sharp crystals) more problematic.

Imagine a WRC car with a partially seized steering universal...

And, in the end, really good skiers have more than enough grip from an unmolested edge.

(The average water-injected, WC course tends to look like packed powder beneath talented feet).

Magne-traction does offer advantages for some applications.

In much the same way as the ice-caulked chains at all four on my plow truck. Phenomenal grip in certain directions, at the cost of rolling resistance,fuel consumption, noise, and limited road speed.

Glide rate is paramount in racing, which explains the use of 'conventional' edge geometry, and the hours spent honing and polishing.

Grip is certainly an important part of the picture, but one seldom asks the tech for a 'grippier' wax.

Would not be surprised if Vonn's skis were not actually serrated, but had alternating sections of typical and extremely acute side edge bevel.

Carnivorously speaking, those with a 'taste' and 'budget' for hamburger likely outnumber those with the same for Kobe.

Magne-traction is a shrewd means of satisfying greater market demand at relatively low cost.

Kinda like reverse camber/rocker.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Beckmann AG
Tai-Po

[P06781]

LOL, their website is still up: <a href="http://www.incaempire.com/home.htm">http://www.incaempire.com</a>. I actually demo'd one of their boards about my second season of snowboarding, when I was just a little beyond consistently linking skidded turns. It seemed to work pretty good at the time, but now I know better. ;-)

I have been on a bunch of Cat trips with my friend Mark who knew the starter/owner of INCA. He has 2 of the boards and rode them for years until finally buying a coiler ....? He is a local PNW oregon person and son of "privileged" parents who set him up in the business from what i understand.

Edited December 13, 2013 by P06781

[Johnny]

This got me interested, and I founf this, something called SKIBO; http://www.carvingworld.de/Tests/Specials_im_Test__Airboard__Sk/SkiBo_Edge__Profilschliff__Kan/skibo_edge__profilschliff__kan.html

Here's the translation:

We had this winter the possibility of Skibo-Edge to testing! Behind this term refers to a new technology that provides increased edge grip in combination with a longer shelf life of the section and increased security! This will be achieved with one, ground into the ski or board edge between the bindings wave profile with depth of 0.4 mm! This profile can be refinished with all popular grinders. Full details about the technology can be found at www.ultimategrip.ch ! What we ultimately is more interested in whether the whole also works! First of all - doing it!Something scared we were when we took our freshly machined winter sports equipment back to reception because of interference with the material is "not to miss"!This initial skepticism evaporates immediately but after the first few turns. In grippy soft snow, the driving characteristics of the sports equipment is still good. Once the runway is hard or icy plays Skibo-Edge from its full strength. The profile bites himself in the document, provides greatly increased grip and a sense of security! The grip on ice surpassed that of the brand-new ski by far!Remains the question of durability: After 5 days of skiing the edges were definitely not the sharpest, but the grip on ice almost unchanged up! A normal sanding is not to make something similar to the situation in our eyes! This opportunity to forego the sharpness of the edge, reduces the risk of cuts and extremely gentle on the clothing! Conclusion: Skibo-Edge works and is a worthwhile investment. Even older Carver or boards that have already lost of performance due to voltage loss should receive a decent tune-up by Skibo-edge and bite properly again! "

[Johnny]

Here's a better picture:

[Johnny]

Looks like Nidecker does it too: http://www.nidecker.com/Ultimate-Grip.html

http://www.nidecker.com/local/cache-gd2/24dec83747c0ad47ffe729605a590e7b.jpg

[LeeW]

I'll make this quick and short since I used to work at Mervin MFG.

My skis are magne traction... and to be honest, can you cut the steak with serrated knife as well as regular sharp blade? Yes. Same idea with skiing/boarding with magne-traction. I sincerely believe it's not the edge themselves, it's the side cut radius hands down.

[slopestar]

We used to get factory seconds in the early 90's from mervin. Basically the funky blunted tip and tails on the MC and Jlynn's this is just after the inner course was not made anymore. We would put 3 strap Burton's on them and cut off the tails. Mount it forward a little and carve the snot out of it. Crystal Mountain locals had some fun on these. Short side cut radius makes a nice tight turn but only with good grip. I still prefer to have my bindings mounted centered on SCR to just forward of center...

Edited December 14, 2013 by slopestar

[John Bell]

I too have a Rossi One Mag. I like MTX a lot--but then (being on the East Coast) I find myself on ice a lot. I've never jibbed in my life.

Probably true that it's grabbier than a smooth edge. But I prefer that when the run is a Zamboniland.