What's the difference...?

[SaffainSweden]

I noticed that there has been a bit of debate (like in this thread for example: http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?39382-Swoard-EC-advice-feedback) about the suitability of different types of boards for different styles of riding.

Something that keeps coming up is "Bomber style" and "EC style". When I check out the videos it seems to me that EC style has laid down turns. Is that the difference? Or is there more to it?

I came to snowboarding from a surfing background so I completely understand how different types of equipment can be more suited to or promote different styles riding and conditions. Is that the case in snowboarding too?

-15c here today, sunny and nice = perfect for the slopes:-)

[Hans]

Different boards for different styles of riding? Yes, but a versatile rider can do every style with every board. For instance you can also do ec style with a freeride board, no problem. Or race in bomberstyle with an ec board like a Swoard. The one board is more suited for a type of ridingstyle as another board is, like you have differences in skis, surfboards, bikes, and so on.

[Hans]

Fully laid turns in ECing: yes, mostly it has to do with fully laid turns, has to do with rotational technique combined with other techniques like push and pull for instance. But there are other techniques as well you can do the Ecing ride type of style.

[SaffainSweden]

Different boards for different styles of riding? Yes, but a versatile rider can do every style with every board. For instance you can also do ec style with a freeride board, no problem. Or race in bomberstyle with an ec board like a Swoard. The one board is more suited for a type of ridingstyle as another board is, like you have differences in skis, surfboards, bikes, and so on.

Yes I fully get what you are saying. My brother rips almost every type of surf on a little 5'9" fish which is a board that most people only ride on small sloppy stuff. i used to think he was crazy until I tried riding it and discovered that it is a very versatile board. But I also see that with our sports it's more of an equation like board+rider+conditions+attitude=style.

"Fully laid turns in ECing: yes, mostly it has to do with fully laid turns, has to do with rotational technique combined with other techniques like push and pull for instance. But there are other techniques as well you can do the Ecing ride type of style."

Thanks for explaining that, Hans. So EC is (basically) push-pull plus rotation to create laid out turns? Is that right? I guess you ride EC style? What does Bomber style entail then? Or are they pretty much the same except for the laid out turns?

[Corey]

My rough way of thinking of the different goals:

Extreme Carving - Lay down on the snow, dragging the entire side of your body on the snow. Dragging is too harsh of a word here, more like a brushing contact?

'Bomber' Carving - Don't touch the snow at all. Carve as deeply as you can, but avoid touching the snow, keeping your shoulders roughly parallel with the snow. (I dislike calling this 'Bomber' carving as it has nothing to do with Bomber bindings or this forum, but it seems to have caught on)

Both are stylish when done properly, and I love trying to do both and changing it up often. Most people do some blend of the two styles, as they both work well in various conditions.

[pogokoenig]

Not to forget. These are only two styles and do by far not describe the entire beauty of our sport. There is a variety of tools that can be combined in unlimited way which ultimately leads to different techniques and styles. I personally prefer to adopt my riding to the mountain/ condtions and the mood I am in - rather than limiting myself to a certain style or two.

[Hans]

Use the search function and you will find tons of info here. Also good sites are:

http://www.bomberonline.com/resources/ (tons of info about technique, links, articles and so on)

www.swoard.com

http://www.alpinecarving.com/

Like Pogokoenig said, mix different styles depending on the mood you are in, color of clothes, the color of your board, the terrain is of no importance :rolleyes:, it's just how your looks are:eplus2:, the rest of it sucks anyway...;) Especially for those who has only had beachsand between his toes the last couple of years :lol:

Edited March 14, 2013 by Hans

[RCrobar]

Hello

There are TWO distinctly different techniques generally used by hardbooters:

**Please realize that the following points have also been very oversimplified, experts out there please take this with a grain of salt**

1) Rotating Upper Body, Surf/Skate Heritage, EC Technique/Style - (Swiss Technique-CERN Web Site)

2) Static Upper Body, Ski Racing Heritage, Bomber Technique/ Style - (French Technique-CERN Web Site)

Try this:

-Imagine the letter “T” painted on the chest of two snowboarders, from belly button to neck and from shoulder to shoulder.

-Watch the chest and the painted “T” of the two different hardbooters coming down the mountain towards you.

-Place yourself at the bottom of the hill watching the rider come straight down the fall line.

Two snowboarders will now ride down the hill, just riding down a flat green run coming straight at you doing basic turns, one with the "Bomber style" and the other using the "EC style".

Rotating Upper Body (EC Style)

Rotation turns (Swiss): requires that the upper body rotates or leads the turn while the lower body follows. The “T” on the chest is visible only half of the time, as the upper body rotates the “T” turns sideways and disappears from view. Next the 'T' will reappear as the rider rotates to complete the next turn.

Static Upper Body (Bomber Style)

Non-Rotation turns (French): requires that the upper body does not move, it remains static while the lower body initiates the turn. Riders of this technique try very hard to keep their shoulders level and square to the fall line at all times. Ideally the “T” on the chest is visible at all times.

Hope this helps.

Rob

Edited March 16, 2013 by RCrobar

[BlueB]

I think that you mixed 2 different techniques into one, in the description of "Bomber/French"... While the "French" implies counter-rotation, mostly suitable for quick unfinished turns (slalom), the "Bomber", or we could call it "CASI" :) technique, requires the vertical axis allignment of knees/hips/shoulders with the binding angles and no rotation or counter-rotation. However with both of these non-Swiss techniques the upright upper boddy is desirable (angullation).

And, as few other poster said - learn them all, use them all. You'll have more fun.

I found that good all-round board can be ridden with any technique.

[ExcelsiorTheFathead]

I've posted this before, but this guy still impresses me. I "think" that this is some kind of French or Swiss style, but I don't know nuthin'. It sure ain't Bomber or EC.

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9LR3pN5mJng?rel=0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

[RCrobar]

Hello

I think that you mixed 2 different techniques into one, in the description of "Bomber/French"...

No, not mixed ... but definitely blended or oversimplified for discussion of this thread for sure!

It seemed to me that using rotation and static upper body as a starting point would in fact help to simplify a complicated topic for someone trying to make sense of it all.

BlueB, I agree 100% with your post. I didn't want to go into how the CASI, Rotation, French, Swiss, etc. technique(s) are like first cousins that can be further divided into different sub-sets, like the push-pull, or a desired upright body, etc, etc.., I just didn't want to confuse or open up a can of worms.

Learn them all, pull them out when the spirit desires and enjoy what ever board makes you smile.

Cheers

Rob

[SaffainSweden]

Thanks for all the answers it is all a bit clearer now. I was actually wondering whether one of the styles had a racing heritage and now I know! It's also useful to know that the different styles have actual practical applications in different situations.

I didn't have anyone to each me when I started 10 years ago and had to take what I knew from surfing and skateboarding and see what worked and what didn't. Also finding this forum a couple of years back made a huge difference to my riding and understanding of what I was naturally doing and how a snowboard actually works. So thanks for that all you old regulars.

I've got m brother coming for a visit in a few weeks and would like to impart some knowledge to him. So if you were going to teach someone to snowboard with the aim of getting them to carve which style do you think would be the best to introduce them to first? The rotation or counter rotation method?

[pokkis]

Where in Sweden you go for boarding? there are some good carvers there, Teddo & Co

[SaffainSweden]

Where in Sweden you go for boarding? there are some good carvers there, Teddo & Co

I live in the north so I mainly go to Tärnaby/Hemavan and Kittelfjäll when I go to the mountains otherwise I ride the small local hills around Västerbotten. I've actually never seen anybody hard booting in my years of living here but I did get to try out a friend's who used to race in the 90's racing board and boots once which was cool and scary. The boots were too big for me and I'm sure the board was way beyond my capabilities but it still felt pretty cool. I would definitely like to try hard booting more but no-one sells or demos the equipment here. I even phoned around a lot of the resorts to see if they offered HB lessons and they had no idea what I was talking about. So I finally resorted to buying an F2 Eliminator which has been super fun and a huge boost to my carving.

[b0ardski]

I'm with B & RC, if you want to lay out on the snow, certain technigue facilitate this, if you want to get thru the gates in the most direct/quickest route a different technigue is required, if you want to ride the whole mt with style in various slopes/conditions/mood learn as many variations as you can and blend any and/or all to fit the situation.

that said, I ski on a snowboard so my style is wierd, what would you call this

[pokkis]

Teddo and guys atleast used to ride lot's in Åre, we had even carving session there some years ago.

There are still some swedish guys lurking here and Swoard forum but unfortunately Sweden and Norway are very quite related carving,

totally different than Finland where we have very active carving scene.

Perhaps you dont have too long way to Levi or Ylläs :)

[SaffainSweden]

Those resorts are 600+km from me! Looks like I'm on my own up here. It's cool not everyone gets to learn from an instructor.

[pokkis]

This came too late for you but anyway:

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10816&sid=409afc3111ba17a81acffdcbd4906741

[RCrobar]

Hello SaffainSweden

So if you were going to teach someone to snowboard with the aim of getting them to carve which style do you think would be the best to introduce them to first? The rotation or counter rotation method?

This is a loaded question! I don't think it is possible to answer this question definitively, just too many variables.

IMHO, I would ask the rider what they are after. Generally I would steer a long time skier type to the Static Upper Body Technique and a long time surfer/skater to the Rotational Upper Body Technique ... but that is just me.

SaffainSweden, here is a question for you:

Do you think it would be helpful if the Bomber web site had tech articles on both (or more) techniques?

As many guys have already stated in this and other threads, knowing and switching between techniques is a desired skill many riders aspire to. In addition, Bomber bindings are used on boards designed specifically for many different techniques, but only one technique is represented on this web site.

Would this information help a new rider or is it just not necessary?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Rob

[Corey]

Interesting point RCrobar! I never thought about that, most of the articles in the Bomber archives are on one style. This is likely not due to some selection bias, but rather those that have been interested in submitting articles ride in that style. There is one EC article (EuroCarving) but it's clearly not written by a huge EC fan. ;)

I'm biased as I learned to carve using those articles (no instructors or other riders anywhere near me), tips on this forum, and a whole bunch of very kind people I've met at SES. In my mind the fundamentals that the Bomber contributors have written tend to give you the diversity of changing turn shape through angulation of the board. It's through that skillset that you become able to turn very hard and have the snow come up to meet you. But again, I'm biased due to what I've seen and experienced. Are there good 'rotational' articles to teach that to beginners? Perhaps had I encountered those first I would have been saying the opposite now.

About counter-rotation: Does anyone recommend counter-rotation? I think it's universally despised by everyone. The articles on Bomber tend to direct people to face the nose of the board on heelsides, which is a positive rotation.

[Beckmann AG]

So if you were going to teach someone to snowboard with the aim of getting them to carve which style do you think would be the best to introduce them to first?

Neither. Go find a Hockey rink, and practice sweeper turns in both directions with the dominant foot in front. Then mount him to a board, and suggest he find similar sensations on a gentle grade. Once the 'simple' use of the sidecut is under control, you have a point of origin from which to move forward.

And then, as RCrobar suggests, you can let him figure out what he wants from snowboarding.

Otherwise you'll be putting the socks on over the boots.

Does anyone recommend counter-rotation?

The ability to allow, (or inhibit), the rotation of the upper body mass relative to the lower has application, depending on the size of the turn, and the circumstances in which the turn must be made.

At the entry level, one should probably try to rotate the entire body around an external axis, as that is a lower order maneuver.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Beckmann AG

[Jack M]

'Bomber' Carving - Don't touch the snow at all.

"Bomber" style can mean no touching...

Or touching...

[slopestar]

If i pat the dog, I usually like to dislocate my shoulder. But toe side, it's hard because I want to pet it so bad

[Calle]

Teddo and guys atleast used to ride lot's in Åre, we had even carving session there some years ago.

There are still some swedish guys lurking here and Swoard forum but unfortunately Sweden and Norway are very quite related carving,

totally different than Finland where we have very active carving scene.

Perhaps you dont have too long way to Levi or Ylläs :)

:)Lurker reporting.

[pogokoenig]

Neither. Go find a Hockey rink, and practice sweeper turns in both directions with the dominant foot in front. Then mount him to a board, and suggest he find similar sensations on a gentle grade. Once the 'simple' use of the sidecut is under control, you have a point of origin from which to move forward.

And then, as RCrobar suggests, you can let him figure out what he wants from snowboarding.

Otherwise you'll be putting the socks on over the boots.

The ability to allow, (or inhibit), the rotation of the upper body mass relative to the lower has application, depending on the size of the turn, and the circumstances in which the turn must be made.

At the entry level, one should probably try to rotate the entire body around an external axis, as that is a lower order maneuver.

Second that. On top of that I woud familiarize him with what some people call the "tools" with simple but effective drills. Start with "rotation", because this is the easiest for a beginner to leran and understand. Once you understand the tools, you can develop into any other style.

Other tools are:

vertical movement - leg extension

weight shifting forward and backwards

inclination (the only tool that is always applicable - without inclination, no turn.)

and finally angulation (Angulation is in Europe more regarded as a tool when situations get hairy. Icy, narrow etc)