Bam! You hit a fellow carver breaking their board. Do you replace the board?

[Dan]

Would you still replace my board if I was riding my white-walled Madd 170?

I think there are still 6 or 7 around the board...

Don't get me wrong, I would hate to shell out for a new Kessler or an expensive-to-replace classic board, and it would put a crimp in my gear budget for a long time. But do you really think that the answer should be different if the victim is riding a $50 lunch tray vs. a $1,500 Kessler? It's a lot more painful to replace a Kessler, but it's still your responsibility.

Mind you, if it was really irreplaceable, I might try to talk you into a new metal Coiler or something :)

Also, those voting "no" above, please identify yourself here so I know to let you go in front. :smashfrea

Edited March 8, 2012 by Dan

[davekempmeister]

Yeah, if it's someone who paid full-whack for the board, you replace it with equivalent, and you get to keep their old board to build a plate out of :-). If it's a demo or something, there had better be some wiggle room.

i do believe that if i paid the full replacement value of someone's board, i'd want the damaged board. particularly if there were any hope that it could be salvaged for some second - life purpose.

interesting thread, for sure.

[scrutton]

Not to thread jack, but doesn't it tick you off when someone (usually on rentals) ski's over the back of your board in the lift line (probably an East coast thing), and they don't even realize that that's a problem. Makes me want to make them get their check-book out right there and write me a check for some wear and tear on the board. I am thinking seriously of those metal spikes for the next new board.

[fin]

I guess we can certainly debate what is "required" for you to do in this situation, but I am more interested in what is the "right thing" to do.

Several year ago I barrowed a buddies truck to go to the Hardware store in town. I parked the truck, turned away, and started walking to the store entrance. I heard a loud "THUD" and turned around to see the truck has silently rolled one row of cars down (parking lot is on a slight slant) and hit the door of what looked like a nice new Acura sedan. The parking brake in the truck did not work even if you set it to the floor as I had done and I had also not put it in gear as the back-up.

So I staring at this situation and I remember these scenarios running through my head:

• OK, no one is around or saw it. Get in the truck and drive away.
  
• 
  
• This is my friends fault. He should have told me the parking brake did not work.
  
• 
  
• The owner probably has insurance, no skin off my back.
  
• 
  
• I actually even blamed the owner of the car for parking there at one point
  

I eventually stopped and told myself I know what I have to do. Went in the store, found the manager, put a call out on the PA for the owner of the car. When the owner showed up she was stunned. She could not believe someone would take responsibility for this. I paid for the damages out of pocket and had her car fixed.

My point is I could not accept the fact that had I not done the right thing I would remember that for long time, just as I remember it now. Every time I saw a hit and run and made the comment we all do "what a scum bag" I would cringe a little inside knowing I was that scum-bag. Why would I want that hanging over me for years? Bottom line, I feel good for taking responsibility for my actions, she feels good as she gets her car back to where it was, and the world is just a little bit (very little bit) better.

Edited March 8, 2012 by fin

[scrapster]

It is a really interesting thread. I guess one of the problems with hypotheticals like this is life is rarely so black and white. What if the person doesn't expect you to replace their board? Do you insist? What if they're a con man and try to seriously screw you over? What happens if it turns out they're riding some fancy, mega high-end skis that cost them $5,000? what happens if your wife says "fat chance!"?

Funny, this kind of reminds me of the law school example of gently bumping your car into a an individual with brittle bone disease and having it kill them. Even though it was a minor, almost non-accident, you're still responsible for the damage it caused. I always found that sobering.

Anyway, for me, I think the bottom line would be that I'd try to make things right in a mutually agreed-to way.

[Allee]

Splitting the cost of a new board seems reasonable, but not necessary. Any board on the snow has been used. Just because someone jacked my board up doesn't entitle me to a glossy new board.

When you take you gear to the hill you assume the risk that it might not make it home in one piece. Materials could fail, you could hit a tree, you could hit a landing wrong, you could stuff the nose hard.

What if you do any of these to avoid someone who is out of control, and subsequently break your own equipment? Should they pay because they were out of control even if they didnt hit you physically?

Big bag of worms for sure.

Not really. Sure, they could wreck their gear themselves. But they didn't. You did.

It's the same as saying that every time you drive, you risk damaging your car. If I hit a pole and ding my car, that's my fault. If someone else runs into me, it's theirs, and they're going to be paying to fix it. it's a reasonable assumption that you can drive around without people taking you out, and it's also a reasonable assumption that you can ride around a ski hill without getting your clock cleaned.

How do you ask someone to pay for a $2500 virus they just broke? How do you put a value on a NOS board that's not made anymore?

I'm an accountant, so I'd definitely depreciate! If they've had three years of use out of the board and it's kind beat up, I'd offer them half the cost of a new one, because they've had some utility out of it and you have to take that into account. If I smashed someone's three day old Kessler, then yeah, that would sting, but the only fair thing is to sack up and replace it.

The NOS issue would be the worst for me. I have boards that are irreplaceable now (my Madd BX, for instance) that I will cry over when I have to retire. If someone trashed one for me, I'd be pissed. Sometimes things are worth more than their monetary value - those are the ones that really sting.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Allee

[davekempmeister]

I guess we can certainly debate what is "required" for you to do in this situation, but I am more interested in what is the "right thing" to do.

Several year ago I barrowed a buddies truck to go to the Hardware store in town. I parked the truck, turned away, and started walking to the store entrance. I heard a loud "THUD" and turned around to see the truck has silently rolled one row of cars down (parking lot is on a slight slant) and hit the door of what looked like a nice new Acura sedan. The parking brake in the truck did not work even if you set it to the floor as I had done and I had also not put it in gear as the back-up.

So I staring at this situation and I remember these scenarios running through my head:

• OK, no one is around or saw it. Get in the truck and drive away.
  
• 
  
• This is my friends fault. He should have told me the parking brake did not work.
  
• 
  
• The owner probably has insurance, no skin off my back.
  
• 
  
• I actually even blamed the owner of the car for parking there at one point
  

I eventually stopped and told myself I know what I have to do. Went in the store, found the manager, put a call out on the PA for the owner of the car. When the owner showed up she was stunned. She could not believe someone would take responsibility for this. I paid for the damages out of pocket and had her car fixed.

My point is I could not accept the fact that had I not done the right thing I would remember that for long time, just as I remember it now. Every time I saw a hit and run and made the comment we all do "what a scum bag" I would cringe a little inside knowing I was that scum-bag. Why would I want that hanging over me for years? Bottom line, I feel good for taking responsibility for my actions, she feels good as she gets her car back to where it was, and the world is just a little bit (very little bit) better.

When I was a teenager I burned the passenger seat in a friend's VW Scirocco (I wont say how, exactly). Ugly burn that marred an otherwise pristine vehicle. Re-upholstering was as expensive as finding a near perfect example of the same seat in a salvage yard so I went the latter route, unprompted. Anyway, he never said thanks and that's what I remember 25 years later. That's not really the point though because I am glad that I righted the wrong. That one anyway.

Edited March 8, 2012 by fin

[Miltie]

Fin, Interesting poll and thread. In my opinion, the uphill boarder should pony-up and make things right with the downhill (and now bummed out) rider. Some discussion/negotiation should take place on what is the acceptable solution to make the downhill rider whole again. That is the right thing to do in this case. Take care, Tom

[NSSage]

Not to thread jack, but doesn't it tick you off when someone (usually on rentals) ski's over the back of your board in the lift line (probably an East coast thing), and they don't even realize that that's a problem. Makes me want to make them get their check-book out right there and write me a check for some wear and tear on the board. I am thinking seriously of those metal spikes for the next new board.

Definitely not only an east coast thing I'm in California and it happens all the time I have even had some very rude skiers purposely ride over the back of my board as I was carving and they yell at me and say its my fault!

[NSSage]

I would say absolutely you should offer to buy the person a new snowboard no matter who it is whether you know them or not and you break equipment you should offer to pay for it. I think whenever you hit somebody you absolutely have to stop and offer help and if there is broken equipment at least just offer to pay for it.

[leeho730]

Yes but it gets tricky. Since snowboard is an equipment, it loses value over time.

Like car. Just because I crashed it doesn't mean I would have to buy a brand new car for the other driver. I only have to compensate for whatever value the car would have held at that point.

Same for the snowboard. If I crash onto someone who is on a pair 10-year-old ski which are nearing the end of its usable life then I don't have to buy a brand new pair of ski for him.

However, with car it's easier to valuate but with ski/board it's trickier.

The answer: I let the insurance handle it. Depends on the insurance but some travel insurance can cover up to 3 million dollars worth of damage. Skiing/boarding is a dangerous sports (but not to the extent of motocross sports), don't ride without some sort of protection, whether physical or monetary.

[Sinecure]

Somewhat related story. A few years ago I was riding with another BOL member at Mt. Bachelor. He had a brand new Coiler that I wanted to try out. I had a big board that he wanted to try out. We swapped and rode together. Early run, very foggy/cloudy (surprise) and we both rode straight off the edge of a cat track and dropped 8-10 feet into a big pile of snow. Bad news for him was that since my board was long, it hit bottom and pushed his knee up into his chin. This did some cosmetic damage to his face (blood, nothing lasting) and messed up his ankle a bit. I was physically fine. We dug ourselves out and rode down to first aid. On the runout I noticed that the nose of his board (the one I was riding) was a little flappy, but I was more concerned with his health and didn't think much of it.

We got him patched up and headed home (his ankle really hurt). Turns out I had created the first ever rockered Coiler. His board was broken. Was this my fault? Hard to say. But that doesn't really matter. I was riding it and it broke. I called Bruce at Coiler and thankfully he did two things for me. First, he agreed to replace the board for basically the cost of materials and shipping (a lot less than regular price). Second, he put my friend near the top of the list for crafting his replacement board. I could have / would have paid the full price to replace his board, but it would have hurt. I like to think that Bruce gave me a good deal for doing the right thing.

I now have a really pretty Coiler wall-hanging and I still have the board that my friend was riding.

[colintkemp]

I'm with the majority -- you replace the board.

The more interesting question to me, and one I'm frankly pretty surprised folks aren't addressing in their posts is the following: If you're the uphill rider, you take out the downhill guy, it's clearly your fault no if-ands-or-buts, and you thrash his board, then - in addition to replacing his board - aren't you also supposed to buy yourself a new Kessler?

[michael.a]

Im wondering how such a situation looks from a legal point of view because its apparent some people will never except they were at fault nor take responsibility for their actions.

Should you file a police report? Or even call the cops? What are the legal requirements to file suit against someone who killed your snowboard?

[leeho730]

Im wondering how such a situation looks from a legal point of view because its apparent some people will never except they were at fault nor take responsibility for their actions.

Should you file a police report? Or even call the cops? What are the legal requirements to file suit against someone who killed your snowboard?

Civil law court. Police report involves criminal law but that's not the case here since it's dispute not crime. Even in states like Colorado where ski responsibility codes are the law.

Some countries such as Australia, New Zealand and US have adopted small claims court where there is a monetary limit, typically less than $10,000. Perfect for snowboards. You can also claim for court costs ($15-150) but you cannot claim loss of income or other related costs. Lawyers are not allowed and juries are not involved and the whole thing takes between 10-30 mins so it's quick and cheap. And the party that does not attend the court automatically loses :)

The prob is, how enforceable such system is? Against locals yeah, but against tourists who can simply leave the country? Tricky. I say travel insurance is better if you're travelling but if you're local and some tourists hit and break your snowboard it's tough luck, they can be hard to trace, unless they're on work visa or something. There is one US case where a tourist hit and injured local skier and simply left the country.

[softbootsurfer]

the Correct response would be Sorry!, what can I do to make this Right ?

[Corey]

the Correct response would be Sorry!, what can I do to make this Right ?

I'd go this route.

The other person's answer/attitude would greatly affect what I'm going to do. Calm or even slightly agitated (I did hit them after all!) discussion, he/she'll be slightly inconvenienced while I make it right. If he/she is a raging A-hole with personal threats and the like, I'll make sure they're physically ok and then leave - after Ski Patrol is on scene if in Colorado.

This reminds me of the joke a skier friend loved to repeat often:

"How does a snowboarder say hello?"

"Oops, sorry!"

[Jack M]

Do we accept the risk that we might get hit from behind every day we snowboard? In the grand scheme, yes, we do. Just like we accept the risk that if we drive somewhere in a car we might get hit from behind. But we do not accept the responsibility for other people's mistakes or negligence. We expect the other driver or snowboarder to pay for repairs. We don't just say, oh well, s*** happens! The motorcycle racing or track day analogy is incorrect. I've been to several track days and they tell you up front, if someone wads their bike into yours, they're very sorry, and that's the end of it. Such a disclaimer or agreement does not exist at a ski resort. I pity the fool who runs into my wife or kids and takes this attitude.

[sic t 2]

well, the current score is: 44 saints verses 7 sinners

but before we start handing out St. Christopher medals, let's have a little test for the "saints":

suppose.... the result of the accidental contact was not a banged up board, but your friend's knee.

(a plausible scenario would be that upon contact you hit your friend's front leg (the framing carpenter) and his knee hyper-extended destroying his ACL. it was a low impact contact but the ACL is gone now and reconstructive surgery is needed.

would the same deep pocket generosity apply ? I mean, would you be willing to reimburse him for his lost wages? figure at least 8 months lost. would you be willing to pay for the costs his medical plan did not cover ? figure at least $12k. let's say, in rough terms you are knowingly responsible for at least $52,000 of direct, measurable damages. Would you still have deep pockets? Or would the generosity quickly dry up and you become one of the sinners ?

now I understand that is not the scenario Finn established for this thread, but as soon as this great thread has run its course I will submit one with that "slight variation". of course only the saints can participate. and then we will tally up the numbers to see what we come up with.

in the meantime be careful out there. don't get it in your heads that your responsibility is arbitrarily capped at $800. it could lead to a reckless attitude.

[Neil Gendzwill]

would the same deep pocket generosity apply ? I mean, would you be willing to reimburse him for his lost wages? figure at least 8 months lost. would you be willing to pay for the costs his medical plan did not cover ? figure at least $12k. let's say, in rough terms you are knowingly responsible for at least $52,000 of direct, measurable damages. Would you still have deep pockets? Or would the generosity quickly dry up and you become one of the sinners ?

Well I live in Canada so that sort of thing wouldn't happen, or at least not to that extent. But sure, I would pay. Just not directly. I would say "sue me, I won't offer any defence if your request is reasonable, my insurance will cover it".

[Jack M]

well, the current score is: 44 saints verses 7 sinners but before we start handing out St. Christopher medals, let's have a little test for the "saints": suppose.... the result of the accidental contact was not a banged up board, but your friend's knee. (a plausible scenario would be that upon contact you hit your friend's front leg (the framing carpenter) and his knee hyper-extended destroying his ACL. it was a low impact contact but the ACL is gone now and reconstructive surgery is needed. would the same deep pocket generosity apply ? I mean, would you be willing to reimburse him for his lost wages? figure at least 8 months lost. would you be willing to pay for the costs his medical plan did not cover ? figure at least $12k. let's say, in rough terms you are knowingly responsible for at least $52,000 of direct, measurable damages. Would you still have deep pockets? Or would the generosity quickly dry up and you become one of the sinners ?

Yes, I would expect that my insurance would pay for this.

[Steve Prokopiw]

This thread illustrates why I'm either the first or last one down the hill when riding with other carvers.As much as I love 'sessions',I simply could not afford to replace someone's 1000 dollar board because we met in the middle of the run.No one I ride regularly with could either,nor would I expect them to.If injury was the result and carelessness/negligence were apparent,I suppose I would have to reevaluate.

I have a slightly different outlook on this in that simply attending a session is a choice I make with the knowledge that an incident is more likely than when I'm on my own.By attending I have already made the choice to take what comes within reason.

ps.My health insurance has a rediculous 5000.00 deductable(fodder for a heated debate on healthcare at another time in another place);further reason to just stay away from other riders.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Steve Prokopiw

[jskyhawk]

I believe the uphill skier would be at fault and should make any necessary reparations.

A similar situation happened to me at ECES during the race clinic. I was on the 175 Donek Rev demo when another carver lost control and drove right over the demo board causing damage to the sidewall. Fin witnessed the entire thing, seeing that his demo had been damaged by an uphill carver and that some horseplay may have been the root cause. After being 'struck' by the uphill carver I lost control myself and tried to avoid pushing over several other carvers as a result. In avoiding the other carvers I was forced to drive over a close friends board and somehow I feel responsible even though I had been in control until being 'struck'. The same friend had hit my board at a USASA event a few months previously and caused some minor damage to the sidewall (karma?). No matter how hard we try to preserve our expensive equipment, chaos is always constant and gives us plenty of excuses to buy new equipment ;) My faviorate example is the skiers and soft-booters in the lift line that end up on top of you when they try to get a closer look at your rig.

The whole situation could have been avoided by giving other carvers ample space to move, especially at low speed in a large group. Thankfully no one was injured and we can all ride again!

[jskyhawk]

I just got to think about this more and more. It brings back a horrible memory from my childhood.

When I was 16 I was out at Wachusett mountain during the night session. I had just seen the groomer leave Conifer Connection and patrol had dropped the rope making me the first person down the fresh trail. Knowing this, I knew I could really own the trail and ride a bit faster. I came over one of the roads and noticed a skier had lost control and had a yard sale off to the side (he must have came in from the road I said to myself). As I came over the next whale back I encountered one of his ski's lying adjacent to my board. With no time to maneuver away from the ski I hoped I could pass over it. Unfortunately, the ski ended up getting flipped up by my board and 'struck' me in the mouth.

I had recently received braces to help straighten my teeth. The impact of the ski upon the braces caused the braces to transmit the energy though most of my front teeth. Most of the front teeth had been broken and were still attached to my braces which were now embedded in my lips. I had a trip to the emergency room that night where they removed all of the damaged teeth and braces from my lips. I couldn't even get the skiers info due to my lips being sewn shut by my braces.

After 13 years I am still having my teeth reconstructed. I have added up nearly 20 thousand in cost and hundreds of hours of painful prosthodonitia (prosthetic dentistry). I still need another 4 crowns and one implant (approx. 15k total).

I took me about 10 years to get back on the horse and start riding without fear (hence the full-face helmet)

My employer likes to say all accidents are preventable/avoidable, I believe this is entirely BS. I don't blame the skier for losing control, I don't blame myself for hitting the ski. I believe I was a victim of circumstances that ultimately led to a very unfortunate ACCIDENT. Were any parties negligent? I don't think so! This is like trying to blame a binding manufacturer when the equipement fails and you are injured. This is sports, you assume any risks when you participate! If you want to avoid all accidents, you can never leave the safety of your home!

[twelsch42]

Yes, I would expect that my insurance would pay for this.

What kind of insurance are you talking about that pays out when you wreck someone else's knee on the slopes?

Because I don't even have insurance that covers my knees on the slopes.

T