What idea do you keep in your head going down the mountain?

[Guest Armon]

I will be heading up the mountain tomorrow for the first time this season. 20 years old, never carved before. I'm going to go about it slowly, but I just wanted to ask a few questions.

I've read over "the Norm" and some threads about where to face your hips and shoulders, and so on. It kind of reminds me of golf, where there are about 200 things you should remember at any given time, but during a swing I can usually only think about 3 actual things. (maybe thats why I'm not a good golfer). It seems that you choose a few important things... keep them in mind as you practice practice practice.. and then move on to new things. But my main question is this:

What main ideas would you suggest a newbie carver keep in his/her head as they are learning? Then, if this idea becomes well learned, what next?

(for reference, I am using soft boots at very moderate angles- 20/10 for now anyway - on a relatively stiff freeride board with relatively stiff freeride bindings)

Thanks!

[D-Sub]

yesterday was my 3rd day up this season due to some crappy weather, and the first few runs on an almost all new setup I was really getting tossed around.

1st thing I did was remind myself to relax. Keep the concept of "economy of motion" in mind...use as little energy as possible

I was having a hard time switching from heel to toe, but the very instant I started really driving hard with my lead shoulder, the problem completely disappeared and I found myself hitting some of the best turns I have ever done, especially in somewhat variable conditions (definitely wasnt perfect out!)

so...relax, and really drive that lead shoulder into the turn. economy of motion all the while! worked for me:)

[nekdut]

One very easy and important one to remember: DONT REACH FOR THE SNOW. As much as you start to get your carve on, reaching for the snow will break angulation and is bad form. Keep your arms up and forward, do not break at the waist to "get low to the snow".

[bobdea]

that I used to ride with and he gave me more tips that really helped me than any snowboarder

to hold a solid line have your next few turns planed out as you are starting the current turn in a enviroment other than a race course some adjustments do have to be made on the fly but in general it still works

[Baka Dasai]

I reduce it all down to one command - ANGULATE! If that word is a little meaningless to you, you could rephrase it as "keep your shoulders level", or "outside hand down to the snow, inside hand up to the sky".

This has always worked for me, right from my first ever days carving. It's my Golden Rule.

Edit: When Nekdut above talks about NOT reaching for the snow, he's saying the exact same thing as me, just from another angle.

[Guest Armon]

ah.. I was actually wondering what was meant by angulation...

So, it's basically dealing with the angle of your torso relative to.. your lower body? the board?

thanks for the answers.. every little bit is helpful

[Baka Dasai]

Originally posted by Armon

So, it's basically dealing with the angle of your torso relative to.. your lower body?

Yep, I'd say that's it.

Here's some pics showing really really exaggerated angulation (skating, not snowboarding, but that doesn't matter):

<img src="http://www.slalomskateboarder.com/events/2003/Paris/Paris2003_14_Luca_Giant.jpg">

<img src="http://images2.fotki.com/v20/photos/5/53745/222970/Luca-vi.jpg">

I did say exaggerated!

[DrCR]

This link helped me a lot in going from counter-rotation to a more pure, rotational approach. Check it out! There are some nice vids there too. FYI the technique works on a softy setup as well. (LINK). Check the vids out too, but don't expect to carve that well with a softy setup! :D

Also, here's a nice carving resource for you in general: www.alpinecarving.com

DrCR

_______

EC doesn't seem to like direct linking sometimes. Directions: www.extremecarving.com -> Technique

Also look at Philosophy -> Gesture purity, and Rotations

[DrCR]

Originally posted by Baka Dasai

Yep, I'd say that's it.

Here's some pics showing really really exaggerated angulation (skating, not snowboarding, but that doesn't matter):

The first pics looks like he's just trying to maintain his balance.

The second pic scenario, Armon, would look like this on the snow:

http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/02html/photos02/p01_02.jpg

http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/02html/photos02/p10_02.jpg

Or like this if the rider isn't quite fully laid, something like this:

http://bomber.smugmug.com/photos/4513022-M.jpg

http://bomber.smugmug.com/photos/4513027-M.jpg

It's important for you to realize there is comparatively very little weight in on the hand/side of the body in these photos! Beginners who don't realize this tend to 'reach for the snow' and face unpleasant resultants. What keeps their weight off the snow? Q answered with just some simple vector analysis, or, for the extremecarving (EC) case where there is almost no vertical component, simple inertia.

Edit: Whoa!, your in Clemson, awesome. I'm in your general area. What mountain will you be going to? I don't want to disappoint you, but learning to snowboard on NC slopes (if that's where you're going) might actually discourage you from the sport. NC=ice ... real bad for a beginner carver, esp. on softies! Hopefully you'll get a "good", non-ice day though! :)

I would recommend the ~5’30” drive to Winterplace in WV, and as you progress, Snowshoe in WV. (again, assuming you're not already going to a decent mountain)

[Baka Dasai]

Originally posted by DrCR

The second pic scenario, Armon, would look like this on the snow:

http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/02html/photos02/p01_02.jpg

http://www.extremecarving.com/photos/02html/photos02/p10_02.jpg

I don't think there's much angulation happening in those photos. Something like this gives a better idea of what I'm talking about:

<img src="http://bomber.smugmug.com/photos/4514010-L.jpg">

[Jack M]

Get those images out of your head for now. You will not be getting that low, and do not try to, you will end up bending over at the waist and reaching for the snow.

A few simple things to remember, in no particular order:

1 - when you are <i>carving</i>, you are not <i>steering</i> the board with your feet. you are letting the board do all the work.

2. Your upper body should never be more leaned in to the turn than your lower body (a common bad habit). This picture referenced above actually shows a guy reaching for the snow. His upper body is slightly leaned over more than his lower body, and the carve isn't <i>bad</i>, but there's no need for him to be reaching down to the snow. This is a much better toeside carve. Or look at Baka's avatar - same idea, he's pretty far over, but he isn't touching the snow and his shoulders are mostly level.

3. LOOK where you want to go - which is <i>not</i> straight down the hill, look into the carve. This should probably be number one if this list was ordered.

4. Do not swivel at the waist. A good way to tell if you are is if your front hand swings back and forth across the nose of the board when changing edges.

[Tommy D]

<---- Angulation. :D

If you want to keep 3 things in your head, this is what I concentrate on:

• Rotate shoulders in the direction I want to go
  
• Bend the knees and get my COG as low as possible
  
• Keep my arms up and facing in the direction of travel, parallel to the snow
  

The last one is basically exactly what Nekdut and Baka say above about reaching for the snow.

Oh, and most important: HAVE FUN!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Three thoughts to keep in mind:

1. Bend your knees.

2. Bend your knees.

3. Bend your knees.

[Guest Armon]

thanks for the helpful information, I think I understand the whole angulation thing. Amazing what a few good pictures and discussion will do.

DrCR - I do go to Clemson, but at the moment I'm in Lake Tahoe. There hasn't been much snow yet but in another week or two I'm hoping there will be a few feet of powder along the sides of the groomers. I'm a little scared to go to an east coast resort because I know it won't compare!

[jtslalom]

Stay forward as much as possible, stay as low as possible by bending your knees, and don't hang your ass off the side of the board.

[FTA2R]

fun to examine the "psychological" aspect of it all. I'm still a newb, and I'd have to agree with everyone else, esp. as you will probably be tempted to touch the snow (for several reasons), just try not to.

in general, though, I try not to think of too much when riding other than something I want to try. riding is probably my main escape from the real world, and I suspect it is for others too. now I listen to music while riding to maximize "the stoke," lol.

Barry

[Miguel]

On the Carver's Almanac site, Flo Jayme and Doug Dryer both recommend rotating the body into the turn and leading the board by about 30 degrees. They actually say you should be looking uphill, not to the side or downhill. What's your take on this? I've looked at many pictures of carving and never recall anyone looking up hill especially on toeside turns. I want to improve my turns especially on the steeps and thought perhaps this might be worth concentrating on. My goal is to tighten up my turns in order to scrub off speed on steep runs. My heelsides are tight but my toesides are less. I know I tend to naturally lead on the heelside and have attributed that to the tighter turns on that side. I'm not a beginner (15+ years) but my toeside has always been my downfall and I've never been as comfortable on the steeps as I would like. Should I be rotating more and if so is that going to effect angulation on the toeside? BTW...this is a great thread! Thanks for any suggestions!

Miguel

[Jon Dahl]

One exercise that was shown to us at SES last year, by Sean, was something called the butler (?) turn, where you keep your arms close to your body, one in front and one in back, and starting with gentle turns, concentrate on using your lower body, breaking at the waist, to turn. I found I was using way too much upper body "english" when I turned. You are basically using balance to power/weight the edge and can turn with more authority when you pay attention to the details! Reaching to the snow actually unweights your edge and can be disastrous unless the snow is perfect.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by Miguel

On the Carver's Almanac site, Flo Jayme and Doug Dryer both recommend rotating the body into the turn and leading the board by about 30 degrees. They actually say you should be looking uphill, not to the side or downhill. What's your take on this?

Interesting, I hadn't read that part of the CA yet. As for rotating into the turn, there are two schools of thought there. But first of all, I don't think this advice applies to toeside turns. Rotating the upper body into the turn on toeside (clockwise for a regular-footer, viewed from above) is very old technique that often leads to bending over at the waist.

Back to the two schools of heelside technique. Some people like to face their upper body towards the nose of the board, which is the same thing as saying "leading the board by about 30 degrees". Some like to face their binding angles. The difference is whichever works for you. They are both fine techniques.

However for newbies, it is often necessary to tell them to face the nose because they're facing the toeside edge and they don't realize it. Facing the edge is bad and leads to the dreaded "toilet-sit". By trying to face the nose, they may end up facing their bindings, which is fine. <b>Often you have to tell people to overshoot the target in order for them to hit the target.</b>

This may be their rationale when saying look uphill - maybe they're just trying to break the bad habit of looking straight down the fall line. Nobody actually looks <i>uphill</i> during a carve, maybe just once to check for traffic.

Now, on toeside, I am a fan of facing the nose. IMO, facing the bindings makes it harder to do the hip-drop, harder to angulate, and easier to bend over at the waist like this.

Many people face their binding angles on toeside and do fine. I just think that for a newbie it is too easy to develop bad habits doing it. If you want to try a little drill to make yourself face the nose, try grabbing your rear boot cuff with your front hand as you make a toeside carve. Whenever I feel my toesides getting sloppy, I do this and I get that nice hip-drop pencil-pinching feeling back and the carves feel good again.

-Jack

[Mike T]

Originally posted by Jon Dahl

One exercise that was shown to us at SES last year, by Sean, was something called the butler (?) turn, where you keep your arms close to your body, one in front and one in back, and starting with gentle turns, concentrate on using your lower body.

Sean showed us that drill at last year's Hood carve fest... I have since started doing it whever I find myself riding sloppily, and it's been very effective!

[Guest Armon]

well, first day back out and I think it went quite well. Took 2 or 3 runs to get back to where I left off last season.

Best part is, I actually did a little carving! But only a little. I was more successful on heelside. Looking back at my tracks after a turn, I noticed that the first half of the turn would be carved, the second half would be sliding. I think this might be due to the fact that I felt like I was about to be shot out of a cannon as I came back around, so I slowed down by sliding.

Either way I'm just glad to have felt what it is like.. And after all that sliding in the past around I can only describe carving as a very clean, smooth, precise feeling. It really does seem that carving is what the board WANTS to do. Apparently it also wants to send you shooting out of each turn at 100 mph.. but hopefully with some more practice I'll get used to that.

I was, however.. having a little trouble on the toeside edge. I could get it to carve, but the turn wouldn't be as sharp as I wanted so I could never hold it very long.

On a side note, this board I am using is a lot stiffer than my old one and has made a world of difference in feeling comfortable and stable at higher speeds. I'm guessing alpine boards give this same feeling.. just a lot more!

Anyway.. can't wait to get back out there tomorrow.

[Baka Dasai]

Originally posted by Armon

I noticed that the first half of the turn would be carved, the second half would be sliding. I think this might be due to the fact that I felt like I was about to be shot out of a cannon as I came back around...

...[Carving] also wants to send you shooting out of each turn at 100 mph.. but hopefully with some more practice I'll get used to that.

Congrats, that sounds like a great start.

The "shot out of a cannon" image is very apt. Carved turns barely slow you down compared to skidded turns, and in the learning stages it's difficult to control (or even predict) exactly where the turn is going to take you.

But as you say, it's just practice. Being able to control that "shot out of a cannon" feeling, and being able to replicate it on every turn, is very fun.

[philfell]

Everyone giving advice please remember this guy is riding with very LOW angles!

The advice you have been given so far is good but keep in mind the angles you ride. The pics you see of people angulating are good ones, but you aren't going to look like these because you should be standing and facing more sideways on you board. On toe sides think about arching your back and on heel sides try to keep your back hand right over your rear boot toe.

[outsider]

loose yet steady

[Miguel]

Jack...I agree with you totally. I have found that it is very difficult to obtain proper angulation when turning the upper body into the toeside turn. By facing the front of the board I can get much more angulation. Perhaps I'm not getting low enough or angulating as much as I think I am. I remember seeing a short video clip of myself last year and being somewhat surprised at how tall I was standing. I was under the impression I was getting much lower. Any toeside tips from anyone would be appreciated!

Miguel