D-Sub Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 yup, true. Coiler especially as for the exposing...well...I dunno...they all build their boards the way they build them, and a contract would be enough to bind the process to secrecy how would someone in italy be any less likely to "borrow" the technology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Originally posted by D-Sub this may have been covered already, but anyone know why MADD didnt contract out to donek, prior or coiler? Donek is in the US...would seem cheaper...? I suspect that in addition to the fact that the above three boardmakers seem to be quite busy building their own product... ... I think you'd find that the companies in question all do some key things rather differently from the way Madd does tham and if for example Donek built boards for Madd you would wind up with something that was neither Donek nor Madd and **EDIT - removed stupid baseless comments** As an aside I find it very interesting how the different folks in the industry attack the same problem with two different methodologies and coe up with very different but very effective products. Example - Sean uses quadratic sidecuts as one way to keep more edge on the snow. It's explained on his site. WhenI placed my last Coiler order I asked Bruce about sidecut shape - he says his are almost all circular, it would seem he is more interested in dialing the flex to the rider in order to achieve the same goal of keeping the edge on the snow. In the end they both work. Very cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Originally posted by Mike T ... I think you'd find that the companies in question all do some key things rather differently from the way Madd does tham and if for example Donek built boards for Madd yo would wind up with something that was neither Donek nor Madd and quite probably not as good as the either of them. Oh hogwash. Any of "The Three" could build a Madd given the recipe. Kind of like how Miller now brews PBR and Schlitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 hogwash. heh. havent heard anyone say that in a LONG time. anyway...Mike...Id have to disagree. Aside from the time issues, obviously Bruce is busy as hell, and Sean too. Im sure the guys at Prior are as well. but...to say that they couldnt build the boards the right way...I dunno...what makes the place in Italy a better option? anyway..I guess this is just speculation and all. Me personally Id be pissed if my board wasnt damn close to perfect. I dont care about _any_ outside considerations. A product put on a market should be as close to perfect as possible, period Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest johann Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 My #1 gripe with all the madd issues is that this thread has more views than the ladies x-session thread. get back to what matters people. chicks, on sticks, on snow. or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Originally posted by Jack Michaud Oh hogwash. Any of "The Three" could build a Madd given the recipe. Kind of like how Miller now brews PBR and Schlitz. Wait a minute Jack - did you just compare our favorite boards to PISS BEER OK, I'll buy that D/C/P could build Madds given the recipe... would they need any Madd equipment or does everyone pretty much use the same shop setup? What I was thinking, but didn't say, was that left with a recipe and their own devices, I have to believe D/C/P would to tweak the recipe... and who knows where that would lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 but..the impression I got was that no one from MADD was actually BUILDING the boards... am I incorrect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 just saw this on www.maddmikes.com: "All products we sell have a 2-week money back guarantee if they do not meet your expectations." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Any Beer Brewer has the capablity to brew any beer it's all in the ingredients. Until Flite built it's own Press we rented time on other folks facilties...I think Mervin still rents time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Originally posted by Jack Michaud just saw this on www.maddmikes.com: "All products we sell have a 2-week money back guarantee if they do not meet your expectations." That's been on their site for quite a while. I recall thinking, "If the boards don't ship until December, I'll actually be able to *ride* the board within two weeks of receiving it". In that respect, I'm glad mine is still enroute! (It's dumping and I am stuck at work today. I can't concentrate on work to save my life, so here I am... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 I thought Mervin prided themselves in building every board themselves. Okay, so what are the options for a little guy with a great design but no manufacturing facility? A guy like Madd? Who, in Canada or the USA, could build boards to spec and be relied upon for consistent quality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Originally posted by skategoat I thought Mervin prided themselves in building every board themselves. Okay, so what are the options for a little guy with a great design but no manufacturing facility? A guy like Madd? Who, in Canada or the USA, could build boards to spec and be relied upon for consistent quality? What I mean is Mervin used to rent out time in their production factility...if you are a small company you can get them to build your board...Thruster made/had produced boards for Shawn Farmer there (long 180ish 13m AM type boards) at Mervin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted December 9, 2004 Report Share Posted December 9, 2004 Any Beer Brewer has the capablity to brew any beer it's all in the ingredients. Until Flite built it's own Press we rented time on other folks facilties...I think Mervin still rents time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipstar Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 I think you will find this is the classic OEM issue - where to get something made. For boots, clothes and pretty much most other stuff Asia and Europe make things for the world. For the most part, American companies are quite innovative sometimes, usually excellent at marketing something, and sometimes not so cost effective at producing it - high labour costs, inconsistent quality due to lack of volumes, high environmental protection standards etc etc. e.g. windsurf sails, surfboards, windsurfers, bindings, skiwear, skis, poles, etc. Almost all can be made to most specifications cheaper and of more standardised quality than in USA. Even taking into account shipping. That's probably why Coiler etc stick to marketing, design and manufacture; not OEM. TO me, it is clear that this company has a brilliant product and terrible service; someone on this board probably needs to advise them of the benefits of learning how to do marketing and communications. Most otherwise, someone should just take an old Madd to an OEM factory in East Europe, and we can start buying knock offs for probably 1/2 the price. With graphics on the right way. Is this the Madd Mikes Bitchin Boards guy?! Kip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 I think Sean Martin if he wanted to could make an excellent Madd Snowboard. I like his boards a lot. I don't think a board made by Sean's production process would ride like a current Madd- but it wouldn't be worse, just different and we would tweak things to meet the decided end use of the deck. It would be a Madd ride with some Donek feel to it. I usually don't say this...but these types of attitudes are what will/could make this the very last batch of Madd boards made. (I didn't help make this batch) I worked for Madd for $00.00 for 4 years. Got that guys!....NO salary. Nothing Zero Zilch. No health benefits (and I have gotten really hurt before) I don't even get reimbursed for gas or lodging or lift tickets. (lets not even get into speeding tickets, girlfriends bitching at me that they aren't having fun and don't want to snowboard alone while I turn screws- that they don't want to talk with shops afterwards while they are starving for dinner. I stay up like a zombie waxing/sharpening demos for the next day until 2:45 am- stuck with wax and metal splinters instead of crawling in the sack with my hottie. How would you like it if you had to work turning screws in the freezing cold all weekend to make customers happy and not get to ride yourself in perfect groomed conditions- and when the credit card bills come in for that weekend you are out $350 (that or sleep ina freezing resort parking lot in a station waggon constantly awakened beeping snow plows all night long- which I have done Far too many times)? I can no longer afford to work for nothing. I have to limit my advice to Cheri and Shaggy- mostly because I just can't devote time without getting paid. I spent time doing Madd when I should have been working on a viable future. So who is working for Madd now? Shagggy and Cheri. They have kids to take care of- two wonderful daughters. Every hour they spend getting quotes, filling out addresses, taking care of epoxy blocked inserts, racking up their phone bills, answering emails, sourcing snowboard boxes, formating websites and newsletters- going onto BBS sites...is a hour taken FOREVER away from raising their daughters- and money that they don't get to spend on them. One less hour of sleep for Cheri to be refreshed working with her class of ADHD kids as a teacher as her day job. Guess what? Shaggy and Cheri work for the same amount that I got. $zero. Zilch nada. Why? Because they love alpine and want to help the alpine community and want fill a wish for a few snowboarders who want to own a Madd deck. They liked the snowboard community to give back to it. Madd still doesn't make enough money to pay salaries. I may work for nothing, but I'm not Santa Claus. If I were, some of you would get coal in your stockings for being so nasty. If you think these attitudes are a turn off for Madd only- you are ALL wrong. EVERY board, and binding manufacturer feels LESS enthusiastic about producing boards when they read attitudes like these-. So Cheri sent out a board without putting a note in it. One mistake- cut her some slack. I highly doubt anyone would use that tone with her in person- so I certainly don't expect to see it in writing for everyone to see. Moxie (has a legitimate gripe) gets to ride this deck and later gets Brand spanking new one mid-season....who would expect anything less from ANY alpine snowboard manufacturer? So why expect less from Madd? Phil and Rick- if you are buying boards from us (I have no idea who is on the list)- you can feel free to comment- but if you are not- save your breath, Alpine could use less negativity from you- your "helpful constructive criticism" is bad for the sport. Phil- use your racing experience to help others on this site. Fergie- who are you? I never heard of you. Are you an Industry guy?- or a TOP World Cup racer??- because you better be more important than that to cop that attitude. You better have some video footage to back it up. (Actually I would never expect a top racer or Industry guy to act like that). If you guys think you can do a better job- step right up. Are you willing to work for nothing? Job's open....c'mon down. Madd Mike lost $380,000 on Madd Snowboards the first time around. So you guys could have boards. Anyone willing to chip in? I'm not willing to work for nothing anymore- I just can't afford it. I just wasted more time working for ZERO writing this. IF Shaggy and Cheri weren't doing this- there would be no boards for anyone. And if they aren't willing to do it again- there won't be another board run- because I know Mike wouldn't be able to do it all. You can certainly spend your money on a another deck- and I highly reccomend Coilers and Doneks and Priors- (all made by super nice guys with good attention to detail) especially if you spend the majority of your time out west. They absolutly ride better than Madd 158's and 170's in deeper softer packed snow because those other boards have softer noses that flex and stay on top of the snow without submarining, they ride shorter than their length as a result- and offer excellent performance in softer groomers and even off piste. But you don't buy a Madd for that- you buy it for ice, windpacked chalk, overskiied compressed frozen granular, frozen groomed snow, wind stripped slopes, bulletproof hardpack that NO ONE but YOU can set an edge in. For snow that you worry would give you a concussion WITH your helmet on if you slammed your head because you lost your edge on ice. I nicknamed the 158 the ICE PIRANHA for that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 I accepted my board with the retarded graphics. I dont care since the bottom is what matters to me. I am glad to have one of a very few. Props to Shag and his lovely wife for allowing us access to the boards to begin with. Hey my board is different but then again so am I;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Originally posted by John Gilmour I think Sean Martin if he wanted to could make an excellent Madd Snowboard. I like his boards a lot. I don't think a board made by Sean's production process would ride like a current Madd- but it wouldn't be worse, just different and we would tweak things to meet the decided end use of the deck. It would be a Madd ride with some Donek feel to it. I went back and read my earlier post... what was I thinking what I said that? I don't know the first thing about making snowboards, my hypothesizing about what would if Sean made Madds was stupid. I did not mean to offend Sean, Madd Mike, or anyone for that matter. I can assure you that I have a great amount of respect and admiration for the folks building these boards. One look at the wall racks in my family room would tell you so; my wife and I own 5 Doneks, 3 Coilers and as of today 1 Madd between us, and they are proudly displayed for all to see whenever they are not being waxed or ridden. Really, I look at each of these boards hanging on my wall as not only a snowboard but a work of art. My line of thought was essentially that "each artist had carefully developed their own art; putting it in another artists hands might not work". But clearly I don't understand making snowboards... so I will stop pretending that I do and say no more on this topic. I apologize to anyone who I offended with my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chillaxin.nl Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Hi John, I do not agree with your statement. People have a right to complain if the product is not according to their expectations. In the end they have paid for it! If you buy a TV and it breaks down, or has a scratch on it, you return it also to get it replaced or get your money back! I don't feel sorry for Madd and you. You both have the choice to build boards or not...and if you don't get paid for it...that's again your own choice. Please, don't put up a sad story to tell everyone how hard it is to build boards, don't get paid, etc. Again, if you choose to build boards and sell them to people, be ready to give them quality for their money. If not, people will complain and they have every right to!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlpentalRider Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Originally posted by chillaxin.nl People have a right to complain if the product is not according to their expectations. See chillaxin, your from the Netherlands so you don't understand yet. This is America and we are on the BOL forums, so if you don't like something, then keep your views to yourself, and stop being such an ungrateful ingrate. We should be thankful there's even people out there to make gear for us to use. Our alpine riding existense is owed to these people so we better stay in line... Isn't that right John??? Sorry I had to after that wonderful performance by happy Gilmour up there :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chillaxin.nl Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Hi Alpentalrider, I have lived in the US for over a year, so i understand the Americans and the culture quite well :-) there are more fishes in the sea :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipstar Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Come on here; if someone has a bad product and terrible service, they deserve to go bust. If someone has a great product, but not always perfect service, then they need to improve. If enough ppl like what they are doing, they should be able to make money out of it; if Madd are not good enough business ppl to run their company at a profit (despite sellling in advance, having decent demand for their product and selling at a higher price than competitors) then I would say they don't need engineers to help them; they need someone who knows how to to run a business to offer some advice on cashflow management, customer service, pricing strategies and procurement. If Madd are reading this, then hopefully they have a good understanding of how they need to improve; summary: - awesome product - poor logistics - poor customer communication Our existance as alpine riders owes nothing to MADD; if I recall there were a ton of boards around before MADD, and there are still a fair few around now. As a potential customer, I think they have some ways to improve, and most of it is fairly easy compared to making a better board; just basic improvements with email to customers! I am not an American, but surely one of the founding principles of USA is freedom to state what we think?! Then again, maybe this is all just a wind up, and I am falling for it?!!! I say...bring back the Checker Pig!! Kip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 but just in case, AlpentalRider is being sarcastic when he talks about "This is America and we are on the BOL forums..." (that is to say he is saying the opposite of what he actually believes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chillaxin.nl Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Oh, is he? did not notice ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Originally posted by Bobby Buggs I accepted my board with the retarded graphics. I dont care since the bottom is what matters to me. I am glad to have one of a very few. Props to Shag and his lovely wife for allowing us access to the boards to begin with. Hey my board is different but then again so am I;) Well that's cool. I certainly couldn't have you pay full price for a Madd board- and on the other hand...I don't have any financial responsibility for this run of production of decks. So when I'm better- let's try to ride together- I'm happy to help you dial in your set up gratis (hopefully I will be able to enhance your riding), and I think it will be funny as hell to ride a chair lift and have the two Madd logos actually looking at each other. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted December 10, 2004 Report Share Posted December 10, 2004 Originally posted by chillaxin.nl Hi John, I do not agree with your statement. People have a right to complain if the product is not according to their expectations. In the end they have paid for it! If you buy a TV and it breaks down, or has a scratch on it, you return it also to get it replaced or get your money back! If Madd were a large Global TV company like Panasonic or Sony - I'd say.....let them have it with both barrels. They have full time QC guys working there, logistics guys all paid real world salaries with decades of experience in their field. Cheri is a mom of two and a helpful school teacher- and is fairly new to Alpine snowboarding. You want to have at her with both barrels- well, right away I can say you haven't assimilated American Culture at all. This conversation is a waste of time. Why? Because if anyone with a QC issue were to email Cheri and say. "Hey Cheri- got my board today- flexes great and I was excited to open the box but the graphics are on reversed. Can we fix that?" Cheri would have said- "I'll send you out a UPS call tag when your new board arrives so you won't pay shipping. Ride this one now- and we'll just toss it in the demo fleet, enjoy riding this board during rock season so you can keep the new one you are getting pristine." Pretty simple really. And I would hope people with issues can learn to treat the small manufacturers respectfully as they continue to devote time to developing your fun. I have lived in America far longer than you. I've lived in Brazil for twice as long as you have lived in America and I can say with full confidence that living in another country for less than a decade won't make you fully understand the country and culture and ways of thought (its faster if you are say from Chile and go to Argentina) but certainly longer if you are from Europe and go to the USA or Asia. Having a girlfriend living with you in that culture would help because you'd have a cultural translator 24/7 but still you can't fully assimilate in less than 5 years. chillaxin.nl- if you buy a cookie from a Mom at a school bake sale and you don't like the shape of it- do you spit it in that woman's face? Or do you act polite and say. Do you think I could have another cookie please? Here is this one back. Originally posted by chillaxin.nl I don't feel sorry for Madd and you. You both have the choice to build boards or not...and if you don't get paid for it...that's again your own choice. Please, don't put up a sad story to tell everyone how hard it is to build boards, don't get paid, etc. Again, if you choose to build boards and sell them to people, be ready to give them quality for their money. If not, people will complain and they have every right to!!! You must be really great to your parents- so appreciative. (saracasm) Where are the fantastic boards from the Netherlands? Those amazing Netherlands cars? Hey, I enjoy stropwafels more than anyone else I know. My whole family generation before me speaks Dutch, lived in Holland, My mother spoke Dutch as her first language despite being born in Switzerland. My family was the first to recognize the managerial skills of the Dutch and employed them in many of our factories in South East Asia my great grandfather Oei Tiong Ham, felt the Dutch were inherrently excellent at that and QC but not production. Our family left Java and eventually moved to Holland. Oei Hui Lan was my grandmother- and wife of an ambassador- she was the one who passed the idea of how long it takes to get to really know a culture. http://www.thingsasian.com/browse/article/author/goto_article/article.2603.html So I'm familiar with attitudes like yours. As for the part in the article of my great grandfather having 42 kids and 18 women- that's all true...lol. I have the bent fingers to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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