Technique Question - getting lower

[Corey]

Ok, I'm at a plateau and need some advice to break through it. *(see disclaimer below) I'm working on learning a few different styles/techniques. I typically adopt the East-coast style of hyper-angulation to deal with ice, but when the snow allows I'm trying to learn the ExtremeCarving style of dragging armpits on the snow. Toeside is coming along nicely with a clear path of learning ahead of me, but I've hit a wall on heelside. I get to this point easily:

(I do try to not wave my rear hand around like that, but it still happens every now and then for balance)

But then my hip hits the snow and unweights the edge. Well duh; taking downwards pressure off the edge and onto my hip doesn't help the board any!

So I start to shift my upper body inwards - the edge breaks free. If I instead shift my shoulders forwards and towards the snow - the nose washes out and I leave a 4-6" wide trench instead of the usual 1-2" trench while scrubbing a lot of speed. It seems like everything I try just results in the edge washing out in some form or another. If I couldn't get much lower on the toeside turn I'd argue that the snow is too hard to support that aggressive turn style, so that argument falls apart... Thoughts or suggestions?

I've used the push-pull technique as well as the classic cross-under and cross-over without much luck. I can definitely get lower using the push-pull technique, but I'm far from touching an armpit on the heelside. To me it feels like you're actually pushing the board out further than you could support in a long-duration carve, but you know it'll come back under you to catch you a split-second later. That's wickedly fun!

Two videos of me riding:

Sorry, no camera views from a stationary observer. Both are available in 720p if you click the lower right corner of the video.

Snow conditions are usually firm. I don't even try the EC style if conditions are such that I can't achieve the style of carves shown above. I typically have between 1" and 3" of cord on top of a yellow ice base. Board is a 182 Coiler Monster (old version with 14/15m sidecut) or a 167 Coiler VSR (~10.5m sidecut) if I only have access to narrow runs, TD3 step-in bindings with yellow E-rings, UPZ RC-10 boots, FinTec heels.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

* Disclaimer: Yeah, this is theoretical and cubicle carving at it's finest. If that bothers you; please deal with it somewhere else. :p I'm looking for drills and exercises to try on the snow to have more fun and learn something new.

[queequeg]

I can occasionally get pretty far down on the heelside when the snow is firm and I'm feeling good. When I am able to do it, I find myself bringing my rear hand progressively forward, across my knees and down towards the snow (hand starts behind the rear knee and brushes forward across both knees and down towards the snow). As I move the rear hand forward I bring the shoulder with it, as well as the hip and press out a bit so my legs are somewhat extended in the apex of the turn (which will keep your ass of the snow) and get you laid ... errr out. So basically, as I approach the turn: I extend as I bring my rear hip and shoulder forward (rotation), which is a movement that I facilitate by bringing the rear hand forward. It's more rotation, less angulation.

I also find that leaning way forward helps.

One thing I do find: If I actually think about touching the snow with my rear hand across the knees this actually keeps me from getting fully laid down: as touching the snow seems to result in greater angulation. Generally I do like to get that hand down there because it keeps my shoulders a bit more upright and allows me to transition to the next turn a bit better.

Between 00:07 and 00:10 on this video is an example of what I am talking about:

http://vimeo.com/20091947

But I don't usually ride like that unless the conditions are pretty much perfect.

my 2c

[RCrobar]

Hello

This is a really interesting and difficult question!

The idea of learning and switching between two different carving techniques is not an easy goal, but it is a good one.

Because ECing as demonstrated by Jacques and Partice, particularly on the heel side, is your goal here are a few suggestions for the rotation/push-pull technique:

-on your toeside your rear or trailing shoulder/arm should be over or inline with the tail of the board, this will set up a strong rotation that makes it much easier to do a heelside push pull turn.

-the shape of your turns need to be less this shape (and more this shape C.

-the transition from a toeside to a heelside is very important and should be a strong cross under.

-for both toeside and heelside turns, if a person at the top of a run was watching you, should be able to see the bottom of your board (for both toeside and heelside) just after you have made your transition.

-you should feel very centered on your board.

-legs bent much more right at the transition.

-Think of almost jumping up the hill during the transition; the falling back sensation is reduced by extending your legs to 'catch' your falling body. The leg extension is used to maintain balance, not your arms.

-If you really want to commit to the push-pull, experiment with a BX type board, much lower stance angles, a larger range of motion in the ankles, more lateral flexibility, slower speeds, full C turns and don't worry about laying the carve down.

Take this with a grain of salt from one weekend warrior to another:)

Cheers

Rob

[leeho730]

You can lean forward and rotate your hip more.

[Zone]

Love your smooth style.

I would say there is nothing wrong with your technique but probably more with the timing of the push. As Rob mentioned, the turn initiation onto the edge should be done while you're almost going uphill, ie. in your first picture, the stage you're at should have been about 90 degree earlier (going across the hill) so by the time you're in that stage of the turn in your pic, you should've been fully laid out already.

The VSR has a very similar feel to the Swoard, but with both board, if you put a bit too much weight at the front, esp. in hero snow, the nose will bend like crazy (much shorter radius and less floating sensation over the snow), and slow you down.

Today I was learning the opposite and firm/fast snow, I was trying to look like Jack Michaud's heelside and it felt sweet!

PS. Post the same query on the EC forum, as you're get the more dedicated EC coaches hang out there to answer your queries.

[NateW]

I also find that leaning way forward helps.

This is something I noticed about a lot of the EC videos that show guys getting their shoulders down to the snow. I'm not there yet but I do think it's helping.

Speed helps too.

[Rob Stevens]

Love your smooth style.

the turn initiation onto the edge should be done while you're almost going uphill, ie. in your first picture, the stage you're at should have been about 90 degree earlier (going across the hill) so by the time you're in that stage of the turn in your pic, you should've been fully laid out already.

That's it.

You have to be in a super-compressed, balled up position while you're going across the hill and extend out along the snow, so you're fully laid out by the time you're pointed downhill.

Most people I've seen struggle with it wait too late.

You'll know you're onto something when you start sliding headfirst down the hill because you're laying out too quickly. Once you can back that off a bit, you'll get the timing right, where maximum extension and stretch come when the board is in the fall line.

Coming back is as easy as allowing your body to collapse back onto the board as it comes out of the fall line. You can pretty much just rock to the new edge in your super compact position, riding across the hill and extend across the snow into the new turn.

[Corey]

Cool stuff, thanks to all for the great feedback and suggestions! That gives me a few things to focus on. :D

[Ear dragger]

I think you're body position is off in the picture. it looks like you are in the back seat, because the right shoulder is behind you. that twisting is in the wrong direction. You should to rotate you're shoulders into to the turn more and attempt to grab the toe of you're front boot. by putting you're arm down there, you are able to pressure the edge more efficiently. Get the "ice coast" style down first, then the EC carving should be easier to achieve.

[Zone]

I think you're body position is off in the picture. it looks like you are in the back seat, because the right shoulder is behind you. that twisting is in the wrong direction. You should to rotate you're shoulders into to the turn more and attempt to grab the toe of you're front boot. by putting you're arm down there, you are able to pressure the edge more efficiently. Get the "ice coast" style down first, then the EC carving should be easier to achieve.

Not sure I'd agree. The videos looks great.

It's more stylish to have the shoulder facing forward, but Jacques heelside looks like Corey's style.

[pokkis]

I would assume that he was refering with EC to Extreme Carving style, not with Euro-carving

[Jack M]

what do frontside and backside mean? I never know.

[Corey]

I'd like to think that the above picture is not the finest example of my riding, it's just a recent picture that shows butt-on-the-snow turning. There's a bigger variety of turns in the videos. The SES one doesn't show as much about body positioning as there is only one camera angle pointing at me.

As much as I'd love to join a race team and get coaching, there's no such thing within 500 miles of me. Nor are there any other alpine riders to compare with. I've debated joining a ski race team, but I figure I'd spend most of my time with them urging me to switch to skiing.

I'll definitely focus on maintaining a positive rotation on heelside turns. I do catch myself counter-rotating every now and then, I'll have to drive that point home with more practice...

For reference, here's a toeside turn in the same super-soft conditions as the above heelside:

Admittedly, that wasn't as controlled as I would have liked but I came out standing. I'm much more comfortable on hard snow than this soft stuff, but it's easier to get lower in the soft stuff! I was confident to charge into toesides in this soft stuff but struggled with the heelsides.

[queequeg]

For reference, here's a toeside turn in the same super-soft conditions as the above heelside

Watch those hands/arms in super soft snow ... you really don't want to end up with a shoulder like mine, it can really mess with your head. I only lay them out when the snow is nice and hard.

One thing I meant to add in my original post is the importance of sucking the board up into your body by flexing your legs in the transitions. Other people have pointed this out as well, but it is really important. This is probably my biggest technique flaw, I forget to do this a lot of the time and it really screws me up. You can see this in the video I posted, I am standing entirely too tall before entering my turn and have to lower myself somewhat before initiating, making my transitions longer and less "automatic". When I remember to keep compressed during my transitions, my riding improves like 50%, it makes a dramatic difference.

[scrutton]

what do frontside and backside mean? I never know.

Using a half-pipe rotation as an example :-

Frontside is the front of your body is facing the outside of the rotation when turning. So, if you are regular, and you just do a big air and land while on the right wall of a pipe, you are doing a frontside rotation.

Backside means your back is on the outside of the rotation. so, if you are hitting the left wall, it is backside as you are rotate approx 180 degrees with your back facing the outside of the rotation.

[Jack M]

Using a half-pipe rotation as an example :-

Frontside is the front of your body is facing the outside of the rotation when turning. So, if you are regular, and you just do a big air and land while on the right wall of a pipe, you are doing a frontside rotation.

Backside means your back is on the outside of the rotation. so, if you are hitting the left wall, it is backside as you are rotate approx 180 degrees with your back facing the outside of the rotation.

I've heard those, but I don't know how that translates to carving. That is, I have my interpretation, but I never know if it is the same as someone else using those terms.

Why can't we just say toeside and heelside??

[Neil Gendzwill]

Using a half-pipe rotation as an example

I'm sure Jack knows that version. We've had this discussion a bunch of times. Old skaters/surfers think of backside and frontside the way you explain, other people who don't come from that background think the opposite. So when someone says "frontside", we're never sure which way they mean. It's just way simpler and clearer to say "toeside" and "heelside".

[Corey]

Good point Jose. I actually did catch an arm a few times that day. I went back to the upright shoulders style after that. I now try to follow the same guidelines and only put hands down in firm conditions.

It seems like our European friends refer to the side of you that's closest to the snow as the side. So 'frontside' = toeside, 'backside' = heelside. Yeah, that's backwards to skateboard terms and I always have to look at the poster's location and apply the little mental filter whenever reading. I've heard the theory that it refers to the bottom turn in surfing (toeside facing the wave = frontside), but I know nothing about surfing so I can't comment.

Good point about sucking up the legs in transitions. When trying to do this I walk the fine line between having my knees smack me in the chest (throwing me off-balance) and too little compression in the transition. My timing definitely needs work as I have a hard time tossing my body down the hill on heelsides. On toesides I'm quite comfortable hucking my center of gravity downhill ahead of the edge.

[Surf Quebec]

See how Patrice Fivat does it.

Both hands are in front when entering the heel carve and knees are bent.

I like this pic as you can see the details in the steps

[RCrobar]

Why can't we just say toeside and heelside??

I have to agree, I too find toeside and heelside an easier reference when trying to discuss a technical topic. When I did my previous post I actually had toe and heelside, then changed it. I too think I have done this because of the text and discussions on the EC site.

Both hands are in front when entering the heel carve and knees are bent.

Images 10, 11, and 12 of the Patrice sequence are very important if you are interested in learning the rotation technique:

-check the position of the right arm/shoulder in picture 10 vs picture 11

-picture 10 is the very end of the toeside turn

-picture 10 shows a completely finished turn, finished in that the right arm/shoulder is over the tail of the board.

-images 10, 11 and 12 are the transition, which is a strong cross-under as the shoulders simultaneously rotate

-the heelside turn begins at the moment that the edge transition has completed and the rotation has stopped.

I'm working on learning a few different styles/techniques. I typically adopt the East-coast style of hyper-angulation to deal with ice, but when the snow allows I'm trying to learn the ExtremeCarving style of dragging armpits on the snow.

I would find it very helpful if a person posting their thoughts would clarify or specify which technique they use and are commenting on. For me a lot of confusion comes from not knowing whether a rider is commenting on the static upper body vs rotation upper body techniques;example - the arm goes here vs there depending which technique you are speaking to.

[Flywalker]

Those of you who find it difficult to understand front side and back side must be wearing your jackets with the zipper behind you.

Must be difficult to get dressed in the morning....

[Jack M]

According to the halfpipe analogy, a backside air would be a toeside turn.

So it is totally ambiguous.

[teach]

A backside air is a toeside turn, unless snowboard half-pipe riders have switched skate terminology. Maybe that's why Shaun White switches his stance when on a snowboard...

I think the terminology comes from surfing, but not bottom turns. When you're cutting back up the wave face and you turn with your front facing the crest, that's frontside. In other words, are you facing to the outside of the circle you're tracing? That's frontside for skaters and I believe surfers. Not at all ambiguous unless you face forward; then just think about where your feet are pointing. Unless you ride 90/90... even then it's not ambiguous, just subtle.

[Flywalker]

I understand what you're saying....

However, unless you are riding your board like a monoski, front side and toe side should be exactly the same.... unless you wear your boots backwards.

This is a CARVING site, after all.

[teach]

The term "carve" in reference to turning predates the snowboard. Probably comes from surfing too. I just know we dreamed about carving empty swimming pools in the 70s.