Yard Sale Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Back in February of 2010 I exercised my right to remain silent at a roadblock. The response was a contrived smell of alcohol on my breath, a threat of taking my truck and motorcycle, a forced PAS/PBT test, a threat of arrest for "obstruction," and an order to never return to the area. (I lived a couple blocks away.) To protect myself from malicious prosecution, I began travelling with recording devices. Surprise, surprise, surprise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Good for you. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Yard: I've had exposure over the years to your specific way of responding to officers like these. Overall, I think you did the right thing by affirming your rights as a citizen but, may I ask a few questions? As a fellow BOL-er I know that you don't have to answer them but, it would make my determination of your plight with these officers more succinct. First, did you have a gun or weapon on your person or in the car? If you did, was the weapon loaded or in a stage of operation? Was there a clip in the vehicle (I hate using that term)/car. As an owner of the weapon, did you have a concealed carry permit? Secondly, was the alcohol test positive in any manner? Please know that I know that this information was taken from you under duress and (implied) threat of harm. You have every right to defend yourself from unlawful search and seizure. Including here. For those who might rail against what Mr. Yard Sale did, I'd offer that you might want to do some research into what modern-day law enforcement officer training now entails. It's not pretty if you are any fan of the constitution. And if you aren't, it should be of note that you or I might be next in line for these illegal searches. Illegal? What? Remember, the cop said 'administrative checkpoint'. Administrative means he didn't have to get elected by the people to SERVE them. And if the War On Terror is part of your argument against Mr. Y. Sale, please cite specific examples of vehicles (ugggh, it's a CAR!) driven by tape recording-toting citizens being involved in terror attacks. Too bad Karen Silkwood didn't have one on her many years ago. Mark Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjvircks Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 What I'm negativly impressed by is the way the officers would not really talk with YS but rather kept issuing the same orders (lawful?) and threats over and over and over. At no time did anyone indicate how or why what the officers were doing had any legal standing. Can someone explain to me the lawful limits of both citizen and officer in this situation? YS was Ghandi-like in his non-combative, non-confronational resistance. However, I'm not sure I would advise my children to do the same. For their own short term well-being I think I'd advise comply with the officers rather than risk harm. So I guess, with me... they've won. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 What I'm negativly impressed by is the way the officers would not really talk with YS but rather kept issuing the same orders (lawful?) and threats over and over and over. At no time did anyone indicate how or why what the officers were doing had any legal standing. Can someone explain to me the lawful limits of both citizen and officer in this situation? YS was Ghandi-like in his non-combative, non-confronational resistance. However, I'm not sure I would advise my children to do the same. For their own short term well-being I think I'd advise comply with the officers rather than risk harm. So I guess, with me... they've won. :( Assuming all things equal, I'd consider YS a very fortunate young man. He seems to have come out of this relatively unscathed. In former times, the legal standing of the officers would have been held suspect. Now? Hmmph. What with the WOT, militarization of law enforcement, and general apathy among the populace, this is SOP and you'd be stupid or a smart-a** to cross the line with cops now. Not that YS is stupid or a smart-a** but, I'd have a hard time doing what he did and I'm stupid and a smart-a**. :) But, at what point do we as individuals or as a community stand our ground? Thoreau spent a night in jail over a poll tax. His neighbors didn't even balk at idea of standing up to an oppressive tax but he did. YS chose his battle and stood his ground (momentarily) and ended up making a long night for the police. Did it change anything? I guess for me that's where I know to draw my own personal line. If I can stay the oppression, limit the scope of draconian laws, try and make a convert to my way of thinking, then I act. Otherwise, I use my wits, hold my tongue, and remain to fight another battle. YS chose a time and place to cross his line and we get to witness the results. We each have a breaking point and a point at which we will not break but will bend. At each step, YS kept bending until he was bought, so to speak. For most of America, the cops did their duty and took down a non-compliant hippie. For the rest of us, the cops don't have any idea that they are paving the way for another regime which could result in a police state or, worse. I've gone through a checkpoint like YS did and I demanded to be tested for alcohol. I was told to keep moving. I had a wife and kids in the car and thought the better to do just that. If I had been alone, I'd have chosen to stand my ground. Clog the artery. Peaceful resistance. Coward? maybe. Resister? still. The police were once the friend of the neighborhood and generally did their best. Now, there are more problems that can possibly be handled in an hour let alone a day. Add to that all of the illegals, drugs, and organized crime and they are out-gunned. But, they aren't out-gunned by their neighbors even though they are taught that they are. Good guy? Bad guy? Who knows? The point here is that the courts are going to rule on the side of the officers (who BTW, are officers of the court which makes it illegal and unlawful for them to set up and issue the damned checkpoints and citations in the first place). Assuming YS is going to court Pro Se, he could ask for a Proper Summons and a Formal Information in relation to the charges. Next, he could motion for the court to Quash the Information as it was obtained unlawfully. Motion to Dismiss would be another good motion to file with the clerk. Another would be to appear in the court Pro Se and demand of the court all of the Procedural due that the Accused has been allowed. That is, using the courts terminology, simply force the court to obey it's own rules. Words mean things and the courts have to obey the rules. If they don't? That's why we have appellate courts in America. Frankly, they won't. They can't. They are set up to collect taxes from crimes which have no victims. They'll violate civil rights of everyone, they'll collect the revenues from everyone, and to hell with liberty and freedom. Welcome to the machine. Except on appeal. So far. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdyno Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Here is a link to a guy that would probably be shot if he were in the US: http://www.youtube.com/user/cveitch#p/c/54E742FCDBA04FCE/1/mzyPMx1Yx8o I think it is alarming the way Law Enforcement is headed these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Sale Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 I have a CCW permit but took my jacket off in my warm truck after my last stop. There is no prohibition against open carry. The picture in the video is me, wearing the same clothes and holster and pistol earlier in the day. On the opposite side of the belt was a spare magazine. I have not seen the blood test. I tried to issue a subpoena but the court wouldn't let me. I have little to worry about regarding its contents, as I last consumed alcohol in August, but I am worried the test and/or the blood samples will mysteriously disappear. (Arresting or proceeding against an innocent person is a crime in this state.) BTW, I'm not young and I'm not a hippie. FYI, an administrative roadblock is defined by state statute NRS 484B.570. What are the requirements at a roadblock in this state? You must stop at the traffic control device. However, I was stopped by hand signal prior to the traffic control device (stop sign). When you are stopped you are detained and not free to go. It is a per se fourth amendment seizure. However, you have the right to remain silent. You must follow only lawful orders. Anything else is a request, invitation, or threat. The police detaining you have no lawful authority without a warrant, probable cause to arrest, or reasonable, articulable suspicion of a crime. Once they have RAS, even for something as simple as a non-functioning license plate lamp, they have the authority to order you to roll down your window, order you out of the car, etc. or face some kind of obstruction charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 ... That is, using the courts terminology, simply force the court to obey it's own rules. Words mean things and the courts have to obey the rules. If they don't? That's why we have appellate courts in America. Frankly, they won't. They can't. They are set up to collect taxes from crimes which have no victims. They'll violate civil rights of everyone, they'll collect the revenues from everyone, and to hell with liberty and freedom. Welcome to the machine. Except on appeal. So far. Mark I think it is alarming the way Law Enforcement is headed these days. The extremists dealt a near death blow to american liberty a decade ago. Those in power then made sure the bill of rights could be bypassed at will, that power will never be given up short of armed revolution or the second coming of christ. Only the later being likely to succeed. The sovereignty of individual states and it's citizen's rights are a shadow of what was intended by the founding fathers, the original feds. In Idaho they charge you money for being in jail regardless of your crime or lack thereof proven later. Those monies will be taken from cash on your person at the time if you have any and sent to collections if you don't. welcome to Idaho, don't drive drunk and carry papers if you have a gun. These opinions are just that, and flames will be ignored. rant over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C5 Golfer Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Don't try that in Seattle... here is what happens when you carry a simple folding knife with a 3" blade -- and it is closed. What 4 secs? And the poor homeless guy could not hear in one ear. Yes the guy is dead Court started today on the police officer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvin29 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Yardsale that took serious balls! Good for you man! What's the current state of this whole thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnuts514 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Don't try that in Seattle... here is what happens when you carry a simple folding knife with a 3" blade -- and it is closed. What 4 secs?And the poor homeless guy could not hear in one ear. Yes the guy is dead Court started today on the police officer. wow, I hope he is being charged for murder. Note to self:don't carve wood in public in Seattle. One more thing that makes me hate Seattle even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnuts514 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 yardsale: good luck man, your gonna need it. Going head to head with a$$hole cops is a tough road to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utahcarver Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 I have a CCW permit but took my jacket off in my warm truck after my last stop. There is no prohibition against open carry. The picture in the video is me, wearing the same clothes and holster and pistol earlier in the day. On the opposite side of the belt was a spare magazine.I have not seen the blood test. I tried to issue a subpoena but the court wouldn't let me. I have little to worry about regarding its contents, as I last consumed alcohol in August, but I am worried the test and/or the blood samples will mysteriously disappear. (Arresting or proceeding against an innocent person is a crime in this state.) BTW, I'm not young and I'm not a hippie. FYI, an administrative roadblock is defined by state statute NRS 484B.570. YS: My use of the word hippie was rhetorical. It was meant to convey a generic view held by some authoritarian figures in everyday life. Sorry, if I wasn't more clear on this. As to the administrative roadblock (checkpoint), it may have a legal cite and may be used by your local or state government but, it still violates the spirit of illegal search and seizure without probable cause. Your other clarifications illustrate to me that you had control of the situation and were clearly in the right. Cool. At this point, what are, if any, any legal situations regarding this incident? Thanks, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yard Sale Posted January 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 DUI charge was dropped at jail. Possession of firearm while intoxicated charge was dropped at jail. (Credit the deputies at jail for calling the arresting officer on his bull****. However, it's less paper trail evidence to hold him accountable for malicious prosecution.) He then added a no insurance charge, saying whoever searched my truck couldn't find proof of insurance. As the video shows, whoever searched my truck took the proof out of the owner's manual and left it on top. My pistol is held as evidence pending the blood test, despite the dropped charge. The A/O wanted to see if it comes back with anything else he can charge me with. How's that for due process? I was arraigned and formally charged with two misdemeanor crimes: obstructing an officer and not having proof of insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FTA2R Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 man, you really showed them....you should be a ****ing constitutional lawyer...have fun at your tea party rallies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnuts514 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 man, you really showed them....you should be a ****ing constitutional lawyer...have fun at your tea party rallies. go put your head back in its hole while all of our rights are stripped away, god forbid someone tries to stand up against injustice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 not supporting either side, but just to add to the discussion: supreme court has said that these checkpoints are ok so long as there are no discriminatory factors taken into account when stopping the drivers. Naturally, a checkpoint where everyone is stopped would be constitutional. it's really a hard line to draw. I don't think anyone really knows (even police) what police can and can't do. It's kind of a Hey let's try this and see if it works sort of thing. YS: you got balls, man, i couldn't have done that. I would have just rolled down the window, said I'm good, and driven off. Maybe if they pulled something after that (like wanting to search my car) I would say something....scary on both ends... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinecure Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Seems to me that if you're carrying a weapon, with or without a permit, you should warn the cops about it before you exit the car. Its pretty common knowledge that they freak out when they see a weapon on someone, especially someone who has been giving them a hard time (you can't say you weren't and can't say you didn't know you were getting under their skin). They were already anxious when you finally opened the door. I'm surprised they didn't pin you to the ground in a really hard fashion and mash your face into the asphalt as soon as they saw the weapon. I probably would have. And you keep a round in the chamber? WTF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 god forbid someone tries to stand up against injustice. Maybe I am missing something but I don't get the point. The guy has a record now and he really didn't achieve anything of mention. Am I missing something? I am not saying I am for or against the checkpoint I am saying there are probably better ways to get your point accross and not have a record that follows you around the rest of your life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C5 Golfer Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 And you keep a round in the chamber? WTF? My 2 cents or best offer... Carrying an unloaded gun is pretty dumb.. 2nd only to carrying a loaded gun as a civilian... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 My 2 cents or best offer...Carrying an unloaded gun is pretty dumb.. 2nd only to carrying a loaded gun as a civilian... empty chamber is not anywhere near unloaded. If you know what you're doing, it would take less than a half second to chamber a round and fire. Walking around a chambered round is a good way to shoot yourself in the leg. Not sure what the CC laws are in your state, but in Texas and Connecticut, it is your duty to inform an officer that there is a weapon in the car if you are stopped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C5 Golfer Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 empty chamber is not anywhere near unloaded. If you know what you're doing, it would take less than a half second to chamber a round and fire. Walking around a chambered round is a good way to shoot yourself in the leg. Not sure what the CC laws are in your state, but in Texas and Connecticut, it is your duty to inform an officer that there is a weapon in the car if you are stopped. Correct Tex.. and no offense – I enjoy your posts and discussion we have had in the past… I have many handguns.. autos - revolvers... been around these tools for 60 or so years.. Have a CWP – Washington State where you legally can have one pretty easy. Yes you can bring that slide back pretty quick --- specially at the gun range or in the back yard shooting at tin cans.. But if you ever get yourself in a situation where you need to respond "right now" -- pulling that slide back will be one of the heaviest and slowest things you do in the heat of a gun fight..most likely you will fail. Plus don't forget to have the frame of mind to take the safety off - that is if you have it on -- oh damn is off or on? I can't remember -- did the round chamber or did it not.. should I fire oh S%^T I don't know .. I need to look at the side of my gun but the bad guy is coming - do I have my single action or my double action ... damn where is my exposed hammered double barreled 12 ga? Old man today – but ex 3 yr vet in 1969 ish US Army--- been in heat and I know how it affects your current sitting on a chair in front of a computer thinking. If you carry – don’t forget to practice everything once a week.. otherwise – leave it at home.. my 3 cents now or best offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Maybe I am missing something but I don't get the point. The guy has a record now and he really didn't achieve anything of mention. Am I missing something? I am not saying I am for or against the checkpoint I am saying there are probably better ways to get your point accross and not have a record that follows you around the rest of your life. empty chamber is not anywhere near unloaded. If you know what you're doing, it would take less than a half second to chamber a round and fire. Walking around a chambered round is a good way to shoot yourself in the leg. Not sure what the CC laws are in your state, but in Texas and Connecticut, it is your duty to inform an officer that there is a weapon in the car if you are stopped. I tend to agree with these two points. While I admire your willingness to resist authoritarian abuses by the police, I tend to think that there are less personally perilous ways of doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Seems to me that if you're carrying a weapon, with or without a permit, you should warn the cops about it before you exit the car. Its pretty common knowledge that they freak out when they see a weapon on someone, especially someone who has been giving them a hard time (you can't say you weren't and can't say you didn't know you were getting under their skin). They were already anxious when you finally opened the door. I'm surprised they didn't pin you to the ground in a really hard fashion and mash your face into the asphalt as soon as they saw the weapon. I probably would have.And you keep a round in the chamber? WTF? I know Nevada is a Freestate but most states its still a legal requirement to inform a LEO that you are carrying a firearm concealed or open if you are stopped for any reason. Last I heard its illegal to record audio of a police officer. Video is fine but audio requires consent. carrying a pistol on your person without a round chambered is like flying a Cessna without a propeller. A Glock is a safe enough pistol to carry in Condition 1 and is certainly more useful than Condition 3 When I was living in Guam the law was I could carry openly on my person while driving or I had to have the ammo in the front and the pistol in a lockbox in the trunk........now that was weird. Since I shot about 2000 rounds a month I carried it was just easier....I don't own a gun now but that's a whole different subject. Sorry but what I heard sounded like you were looking for trouble and it sounds like you got what you were looking for. I would say you are lucky you didn't end up dead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
en93nsx Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 And you keep a round in the chamber? WTF? A firearm without a round in the chamber is just an expensive paperweight hanging off your belt (or other location of your holster). If one who has a CCW permit would, God forbid, ever need to use the weapon the last thing that person should worry about is chambering a round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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