Extended (nose) -on PLATE

[Michael Pukas]

So, with a bumper on, it would seem that the duckbill is being used to dampen the nose of the board. A compressible bumper would then act as a shock absorber for the nose.

Now there's and interesting idea re: bumpers. Dampening means to stop/control/limit vibrations/oscillations. Adding a solid bumper between the board and duckbill will not, in my opinion, act as dampening; it will transfer the force to the plate, and the plate will bend. Or not. The plate, regardless of what you think it was designed for, is not designed to be a dampening device. A rigid bumper will stiffen the nose; a compresible bumper (with the correct material properties) would act a shock absorber, and add dampening.

I think the term and concept of dampening has been misused around here lately; or at least the idea that a plate with a duckbill can add dampening. Dampening is not the same as reinforcing or adding stiffness to a board. Which is what a duckbill with a rigid bumper will do.

I've only seen/heard of Apex plate racers using rigid bumpers - like the TD1 bumpers - but that's not to say they are not using compresible ones (And yeah I know TD1 bumpers come in various durometers and are not completely rigid, but for all practical purposes of this discussion, they are rigid and not compresible to a significant degree). Now this idea actually starts to make some sense... but I still think it's best to have a board that's deisgned to be used with a plate and leave it alone.

[leeho730]

If you must know, I have seen first hand a number of failures with the Apex plate, its easy to post a nice olympic resume when millions and millions are available for development, but at a cost of $1100CDN and a 3 month warranty, I would be a bit leary.

1 year limited manufacturer's warranty, same as bomber boiler plate.

There's no doubt the Canadian team' date=' including JJA, went through numerous plate failures in training & racing. Just how many, we don't know, only Apex knows; we only hear stories. How many plates failures are you willing to go through for your hard earned cash due to design and manufacturing flaws?[/quote']

14 prototypes.

[scrutton]

If the nose of the plate isn't a dampening device, could it be an aerodynamic device to add length and lower the drag coefficient of the plate/board system :-)

[Buell]

Makes sense, so we can expect plate specific boards in the future with additional stiffening in the nose. Just another check-box on the custom order form.

On the mass/dampening theory, I wonder if they have its length tuned to reduce resonance somehow. From the other thread (different plate systems available), it's clear that they experimented adding length behind the rear binding also.

From a discussion about insert patterns earlier this year, Hans Kessler said he builds boards with a stiffer nose if they will be ridden with plates. It has been mentioned that Donek is doing the same thing.

Kessler also mentioned that he does not like putting both the 4x4 inserts and the plate mounting inserts on the same board. He is concerned about it creating a weak point.

[Buell]

I think the term and concept of dampening has been misused around here lately; or at least the idea that a plate with a duckbill can add dampening. Dampening is not the same as reinforcing or adding stiffness to a board. Which is what a duckbill with a rigid bumper will do.

Seems like a bumper on the duck bill with the appropriate flex would absolutely dampen vibrations in the nose from hitting race ruts.

[Michael Pukas]

Seems like a bumper on the duck bill with the appropriate flex would absolutely dampen vibrations in the nose from hitting race ruts.

Appropriate flex is the key phrase. This is the first time the characteristics of bumpers have been discussed here on BoL in realtion to plates. All other discussions of the duckbill interaction with the board have not considered this aspect and taken the perpsective that the duckbill itself is acting as a board flex modifier with the bumpers as a means of connecting board to duckbill.

What Kessler said about inserts makes sense - we see his boards with 4x4 (actually it's 4x2 - at least on my board) or Hangle (and now additionally UPM), but rarely if ever with both. I have no doubt that Sean's boards with 4x4 (and it realyl a 4xx4) + UPM will not have failure issues due to too many holes.

I'm not 100% sure what Sean ending up doing with the sitffness of the nose on his final production boards that are now available, but in spring testing we found that the nose needed to be strengthed to deal with the additional force a plate can provide. Several racers testing his protos found the same thing. We all liked the protos with a stiffer nose better with a plate than previous protos with the standard nose.

[Michael Pukas]

No, while the bumper provides additional leverage to the nose, it also provides a link for additional vibrations and impact feedback to the plate, this is NOT dampening!

Think Snow!

Yeah, if the duckbill touches the board regardless of the bumper type - rigid or impact absorbing - more feedback is going to be transfered to the rider, and that starts to defeat the intent of isolation.

Last night on my way home f/ Fin's shop, all psyched-up on plate talk, I was telling the GF about plates and what they do. I realized that one of the major ways we perceive how fast we are going is through feedback of the board. We judge how fast we are going by what we feel under foot. With plates, especially more rigid plates, we feel less of what is happening under foot and therefore ride faster because we feel more comfortable. Feedback and isolation can be a double edged sword. Some people may start riding faster than their skill level allows, becasue they can't tell how fast they are going. And scary things may result.

[scrutton]

Now there's and interesting idea re: bumpers. Dampening means to stop/control/limit vibrations/oscillations.

..

I've only seen/heard of Apex plate racers using rigid bumpers - like the TD1 bumpers

Two places I saw the concept of a dampening bumper being alluded to :-

From the Apex post :-

"Jasey would finish a run, wet his finger, stick it in the air and declare that he needed a slightly softer bumper for the next run."

And from Corey's post :-

"Jasey Jay ran foam blocks under the nose of his Apex when there was a lot of money on the line"

Foam isn't generally very stiff, unless it's laid up into a composite :-)

[queequeg]

No, while the bumper provides additional leverage to the nose, it also provides a link for additional vibrations and impact feedback to the plate, this is NOT dampening!

Think Snow!

This really depends upon the kind of material being used as a link. Any material that is capable of deforming under load is going to have a dampening effect, since the deformation of the material will absorb energy, subsequently preventing it from being transmitted to the user. Foam seems like it would have that effect.

[Michael Pukas]

This really depends upon the kind of material being used as a link.

Yes!

Any material that is capable of deforming under load is going to have a dampening effect, since the deformation of the material will absorb energy, subsequently preventing it from being transmitted to the user.

No - many materials can deform under laod, but to be dampeners they have to rebound to the original shape when energy is released.

Foam seems like it would have that effect.

Not so sure - not all foam is created equal. Some foam is designed to be rigid and not crush or bend (like the core of Fin's plate) and some is designed to crush under impact to abosrb the energy and dispate it - the the foam in our helmets. Shock absorbers in cars are dampening devices, and they are not made of foam. This is going in a different direction, but I think there are better materials that could be used as dampeners, just not sure what they are...

[Corey]

And from Corey's post :-

"Jasey Jay ran foam blocks under the nose of his Apex when there was a lot of money on the line"

I thought I had read that he used a variety of bumpers, including foam, somewhere. Don't take it as fact as I'm not 100% sure it is. :)

A question for Michael and Snowman: Why could a plate not be made hyper-ridiculously-stiff between the feet and have a flexible nose? I think everyone understands your argument that it's better to add stiffness in the board rather than a supplemental-spring type of effect in the plate itself, but the "OMG, the plate can never bend or it'll break!" part of the argument doesn't hold water - especially considering what the board is doing right beneath it without breaking itself.

I'm going to post my mini-review of the SGP/lowrider plate in another thread.

[Michael Pukas]

A question for Michael and Snowman: Why could a plate not be made hyper-ridiculously-stiff between the feet and have a flexible nose?

Being only part designer, part engineer, and part builder, and not having any experience in actually making such a product, only a general understanding of materials and processes, all I can really say is that it is a design and construction challenge. It's easy to make a product flexible; it's easy to make a product rigid. To make a product flexible in one area and super-rigid in another is a serious feat of engineering and construction. When one part flexes, it has an impact on the rest of the piece. Where and how do you transition between what flexes and what's rigid? When the duckbill goes up, the middle wants to go down, hinging around a point between the two functions. If the middle doesn't want to flex down, that force has got to go some where, and possible failures may result. If the middle piece is allowed to flex some to offset possible failure, then the concept of a stable platform is compromised.

Serious question - why is there so much interest in a plate with a duckbill that can modify the flex of the board? What's wrong with the flex of your board now? Is it because many who have ridden a plate say the nose of the board can be pressured more, and boards for plates need to be built with a stiffer nose, and that a duckbill can be a possible band-aid for older boards? Or is it that some guys are just tinkerers and are always looking for the next best thing (I know I am to some degree)? Hardbooters are a weird bunch... :p

[scrutton]

It's easy to make a product flexible; it's easy to make a product rigid. To make a product flexible in one area and super-rigid in another is a serious feat of engineering and construction. .

Looking at the side view of the Apex plate it appears that the area between the feet is thicker or has some angled construction going on to add stiffness. Hard to tell. Anyone know?

http://www.apexsnowboard.com/product.html

The duckbill is discernably thinner, so may be more flexible.

We could debate this for hours. Has anyone on this thread touched one of these plates? (heh)

[BlueB]

I also tried to stay out of this, thinking it was enough from my side to wrack a board and give the starting point to this thread... However...

Do you guys really think that Canadian team rode the boards that were NOT designed for the plate, so the duckbill was just a crutch?! Don't be funny. They were sweeping the podiums for 1/2 season before Olympics and the team manager (who I happen to know personally) was running back and forth to Switzerland bringing the Kesslers custom made for the team.

[Michael Pukas]

Looking at the side view of the Apex plate it appears that the area between the feet is thicker or has some angled construction going on to add stiffness. Hard to tell. Anyone know?

http://www.apexsnowboard.com/product.html

The duckbill is discernably thinner, so may be more flexible.

We could debate this for hours. Has anyone on this thread touched one of these plates? (heh)

A few of us here in CO have seen one (and a couple of us have ridden one, but not me, nor Snowman). What you are seeing is correct - there are foam blocks molded into the carbon fiber on the underside between the feet for stiffening and there is thinner carbon and no foam in the duckbill. The duckbill is more flexible.

[lowrider]

Go to JJ's camp at Mt. Tremblant Quebec and get the answers to all you questions. Even get to ride his new boards! I find it interesting to see Sean and Fin are both building plates but addressing the issues differently wood and glass(carbon) core vs foam and glass(carbon) core, different construction and materials addressing the same problem. Make a core strong enough to support a rider and hardware, light enough to avoid excessive weight. Durable and affordable while being attractive. If you can add to that features that might reassure the rider his board can be protected from failure by the addition of features (an extended nose that will support the board in extreme cases) why not ? If you haven't the money to spend on the latest technology (ie boards built for plates) buy a plate to use on your older board. And if that plate has a nose that can flex similar to the board under it isn't that a good thing? Think of a stack of leaf spring. One won't do the job but a few together can get you over some pretty good bumps.:p Yes the nose of the Apex is thinner than the middle.Is there anything wrong with a plate that can both isolate and moderate flex at different times or at the same time(in extreme cases)? Yes i have had my grubby hands all over a couple of Apex plates both before and after the Olympics. They are nice. But i like Fins harware better.I think he can get it lower BP2 hardware??????

[Corey]

Corey, why is it that you are soo instant on running this bumper system? With the advent of nose stiffened boards, this bandaid is really no longer applicable.

I'm not insistant. I think it might be a good idea, but aren't sure. I'm refuting your point that it CAN'T be done. I willingly admit ignorance as I've only now had one day on a plate with a 'duckbill'. Even that didn't have any bumpers and I can't tell if it ever even contacted the board beneath. I could see how it might be helpful if you didn't have the money to buy a new board and a new plate all in one shot though.

To be 100% clear: I don't have any commercial interest in any products. I love almost everything Fin's ever made, and it looks like the Bomber plate is up to his normal high standards. Believe me, I read the page and hovered over the "Add to Cart" button before my wife came in and slapped me.

To make a product flexible in one area and super-rigid in another is a serious feat of engineering and construction. When one part flexes, it has an impact on the rest of the piece. Where and how do you transition between what flexes and what's rigid?

Taper the wood/foam/whatever core. Bending stiffness varies to the third power of beam thickness, that means that relatively small thickness changes give very large stiffness changes. That's what lowrider does on his along with a big hole/slot in the nose. Every single snowboard has this varying stiffness along it's length. It doesn't need to be an instantaneous change from thick to thin. Heck, even the Bomber and Donek plates have varying cross-sectional heights along their length. I assume they are changing from 'stiff' to 'really stiff' though. ;)

Serious question - why is there so much interest in a plate with a duckbill that can modify the flex of the board?

a duckbill can be a possible band-aid for older boards?

Bingo! It's a huge market - think of all the people on here that have huge quivers of boards. While it would be cool to buy all new boards that are made for plates that don't have duckbills, it's not going to happen for most.

Another reason is exactly BlueB's Kessler failure. If the duckbill was made to never contact in 'normal' riding, it would have no effect. But in a crash it could contact and maybe prevent a broken board. I don't care if my bindings are no longer isolated when I'm doing my best impersonation of a helicopter crash. That would be cool if it saved even one board.

Either way, I can't wait to get some more miles on the demo plate I have and the Donek and Bomber ones (along with appropriately tuned boards!) at SES. :D

Think Keyboards!

[xy9ine]

If the duckbill was made to never contact in 'normal' riding, it would have no effect. But in a crash it could contact and maybe prevent a broken board.

this was my assumption of it's purpose - kinda like an overload leaf spring on a truck. in extreme circumstances when a conventional board would fold the nose, this would most likely save it, and hopefully, save the race run as well.

perhaps there might be an opportunity to more optimally tune the flex characteristics of the board for carving / tracking performance (ie, a more 'supple' flex) if preventing the nose from folding is a lower priority.

[Jack M]

The basic concept of a plate is to provide a (mostly) rigid platform on which the rider stands - isolation & stability. If you introduce a duckbill that is intended to flex, now you are asking the plate to do two opposite things - to flex and not to flex. Just as Scoob said originally - if the board pushes a duck bill up, then the center of the pate will bend down. If you allow the plate to flex underfoot to accept the defelction of the duckbill, then you are defeating the purpose of a stable platform. If the plate underfoot is rigid, then something's gotta give - and we've seen plate failures because of it - and more than one.

I agree very much. Everyone should remember that the front of the plate is mounted on a sliding pin, and is free to rotate around that pin. Therefore the flex of the duckbill and the flex between the feet are dependent on each other, and will affect each other.

Snowman, nobody is saying you suck, I think you're overreacting there.

[bjvircks]

Time for a cubicle carver to chime in with $0.02

Several comments have been made throughout this thread regarding damping (that is "damping"... DAMPENING is wetting your pants or whatever.)

From what I can see, the first and foremost function of a plate system is to coax better performance out of the board. A positive secondary effect is the isolation of the rider and stabilizing the stance.

Damping of the system can be looked at from different aspects... 1) damping the behavior of the board and 2) damping that appears at the rider's boots. Much of the discussion here seems to center on the least significant issue, damping at the boots. I believe the more significant issue is damping the nose of the board at extreme loadings and deflections. Racers want to assure that their nose stays engaged in a consistent and predictable manner, especially during short burst overload conditions, and a well tuned "psuedo-dashpot" system comprised of a leaf spring and damping element can help provide this.

Like I said... just $0.02

[Shred Gruumer]

Now my head hurts and got a head ache...wow... You guys need to make airplanes...

RSS

[SunSurfer]

Now my head hurts and got a head ache...wow... You guys need to make airplanes...

RSS

I'm with Snowman. It's really very simple. Don't over think it!

Mount up an isocline plate, 4x4 or UPM, any of Donek, Boiler, Apex Composites, Sigi Grabner, Oxess, Shred Gruumer/Lowrider, Beaulieu, homemade (BlueB, SunSurfer et al.).

Keep your binding centres inside the axles.

Crank up the speed, set your edge, and carve!

RIDE & ENJOY!

PS: and be prepared for even more questions in the lift line from breathless skiers trying to keep up!!

SunSurfer

[BlueB]

I'm with Snowman.

You mean Shred? ;)

[SunSurfer]

I'm with Snowman's explanation.

All these designs are isocline plates. They keep the points where the riders feet are placed on the same slope, while the snowboard arcs and bends beneath. This is their defining feature and the source of all the advantages of their use. Hence iso=same, cline=slope.

SunSurfer

[bjvircks]

Think what you will.