Anyone run their bindings flat?

[BlueB]

I would like to say thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.. Last night I got to try my new set-up with a wider (21" up from 19.5") stance and some 3 degree plates on my sidewinders. I REALLY liked it! Very comfortable and responsive. This thread is a good example of how an open mind and some good discussion can really pay off.

You are welcome!

[Ian M]

^ Glad to hear that you found something better Doug, whether it's lifted or not. Enjoy!

[jtslalom]

I ride flat now but have gone through alot of changes over the years with binding cants and lifts. I used to cant in on both the front and back foot in belief that it would bring my knees closer together in order to create a pivot point. This was late 80's and early 90's idea on asym boards. Once I started going back to symetric boards I still left the cants on both bindings but started to seperate my knees more and use them independently and less of a pivot. When I started riding more and more like this(mid 90s) I decided that the cant plates were actually counter productive and took them off. In the late nineties I bought a few pair of new bindings in which one pair had a sophisticated cant system. It was both a riser plate and cant. I messed around with all types of cants and lifts so much that I didn't truly know what was best. I ended up scrapping that cant/lift system all together started to ride completely flat since the early 2000's.

The Leonardo Divinci diagram of the circle posted above does give a good idea of proper foot position when standing totally perpendicular to the length of your snowboard. However, as binding angles increase one must take into consideration the distance the lines running through the length of the bindings are apart and NOT the stance width. This distance minimizes the use of cant plates. In this sense think about a person riding with both bindings straight down the length of a snowboard. This person would not have a need for cants what so ever.

In short I would think that canting and lifting is more of a preference than a need and once again it comes down to whatever the rider feels most comfortable with. However I do think that every one should experiment with them.

Quote from above by Jack Michaud.

The opinions of anyone who does not ride hardboots are not relevant to hardboot binding setup.

Slow down a little Jack, slow down. I may not ride hard decks anymore but my 15 + years experience riding them must give me some sort of right to express an opinion, I think it does.

[Ian M]

However, as binding angles increase one must take into consideration the distance the lines running through the length of the bindings are apart and NOT the stance width. This distance minimizes the use of cant plates.

Agreed, it seems to me that with common HB angles 45-60 degrees only minimal canting is required; mostly for knee comfort. Toe and heel lift I've found much more useful, though. Pure toe/heel lift was not an option with most one-piece 'cant' discs.

[Jack M]

In this sense think about a person riding with both bindings straight down the length of a snowboard. This person would not have a need for cants what so ever.

That person would still benefit from toe lift on the front foot and heel lift on the back foot.

Slow down a little Jack, slow down. I may not ride hard decks anymore but my 15 + years experience riding them must give me some sort of right to express an opinion, I think it does.

Sure it does.

[Tabatha]

I have been riding flat since I began (last season). Been reading the posts on this thread and decided that I should try adding lift. Last weekend I finally figured out how to add the lifts to my F2 bindings and I took the new set-up for a ride tonight. All I can say is WOW! Maybe it was the conditions, maybe I was in the right head space, but with a little front-toe lift and back heel-lift, I just felt I was able to initiate carves so much easier and shift my weight around. I had no idea I was riding so rigid. Now there were no other carvers on the hill ... so maybe I was having a terrible day and did everything really wrong, but it felt right.

Looks like I have moved over to the dark side and will keep the lift for a while.

Thanks for everyone's comments; helped me figure a few things out.

[Downhill Racer]

I suggest to riders that, if they feel a need to cant, they may simply have their stance too wide as it is.

A flat stance will always be the most stable stance.

[saille]

I suggest to riders that, if they feel a need to cant, they may simply have their stance too wide as it is.

A flat stance will always be the most stable stance.

i supinate pretty badly. without cants my knee wants to drive to the outside of my ankle unless my stance is less than 12". it isn't comfortable, and it probably wouldn't be good for my long term joint health.

to go back to the person who said if your bindings were inline, you wouldn't need cants... that emphasizes this point. if that were true, there would be no skiers or mono-skiers who use cants. i sure did when i did both. i was never without cants in my ski boots.

cants allow you line up you knee so that when you drive it forward its over your ankle. that gives you a more efficient application of the gross power of the quads, while also allowing you to engage the finer tuning your ankle can provide.

can you ride without doing that? sure. but i submit that doing so will fatigue you more quickly, and potentially produce additional joint wear, needlessly.

some people are lucky enough that their knees line up quite nicely at 19 - 21" and the angle their board/boot sizes dictate. but many don't... many pronate, supinate or have valgus deflections that make the knee not quite align over the ankle. of those, many can compensate simply by working harder... but just because one can do something doesn't mean its being done in the most efficient manner.

because the most efficient stance width is partly a function of the board itself - canting allows one to ride the board close to its optimum configuration while also approaching their own physically efficient position.

[Downhill Racer]

i supinate pretty badly. without cants my knee wants to drive to the outside of my ankle unless my stance is less than 12". it isn't comfortable, and it probably wouldn't be good for my long term joint health.

to go back to the person who said if your bindings were inline, you wouldn't need cants... that emphasizes this point. if that were true, there would be no skiers or mono-skiers who use cants. i sure did when i did both. i was never without cants in my ski boots.

cants allow you line up you knee so that when you drive it forward its over your ankle. that gives you a more efficient application of the gross power of the quads, while also allowing you to engage the finer tuning your ankle can provide.

can you ride without doing that? sure. but i submit that doing so will fatigue you more quickly, and potentially produce additional joint wear, needlessly.

some people are lucky enough that their knees line up quite nicely at 19 - 21" and the angle their board/boot sizes dictate. but many don't... many pronate, supinate or have valgus deflections that make the knee not quite align over the ankle. of those, many can compensate simply by working harder... but just because one can do something doesn't mean its being done in the most efficient manner.

because the most efficient stance width is partly a function of the board itself - canting allows one to ride the board close to its optimum configuration while also approaching their own physically efficient position.

Supplant canting with wider stance and more obtuse mounting angles.

canting for supinated stance often simply transmits/amplifies the issue to your medial meniscae, which then suffer more permanent damage.

[ursle]

Originally Posted by jtslalom

In this sense think about a person riding with both bindings straight down the length of a snowboard. This person would not have a need for cants what so ever.

I suggest to riders that, if they feel a need to cant, they may simply have their stance too wide as it is.

A flat stance will always be the most stable stance.

Hmm, If yr in softboots this is a moot discussion(why? Because everything is squishy, as in if I can find my keys we can drive out of here)

But if you ride hardboots...

Cant being side to side, lift being front to back(toe-heel)

When I get on a thin board I cant the front foot outward to the point that I'm comfortable with the rear edge, err, without canting outward if I touch the rear edge I can't get off it;) so I cant it outward to the point that I have to move my body out over the edge a ways before it reacts(grabs), wider boards aren't as twitchy.

Wide is 19+

Thin is 15-

Length of stance makes no difference but if it's to small I lose the ability to crouch, and almost all my balance:)

This is a discussion about setup not technique.

[b0ardski]

In hard shells (ski or board) forward lean and lateral cant of the cuff are important for comfort and efficiency of leg position. The inherent floppiness of softies make this almost a non-issue, but I have seen some soft riders us canted pads underfoot.

wide stance + flat hardboots = unnatural position

[carvedog]

I suggest to riders that, if they feel a need to cant, they may simply have their stance too wide as it is.

A flat stance will always be the most stable stance.

Actually a balanced stance will always be the most stable. It may be easier for some to achieve balance easier with canted bindings. You can't comment to someone else's biomechanics and body, without seeing how it lines up and works.

Supplant canting with wider stance and more obtuse mounting angles.

canting for supinated stance often simply transmits/amplifies the issue to your medial meniscae, which then suffer more permanent damage.

Should read:

Canting for supinated stance can transmit/amplify the issue to your medial meniscae, which can then be injured.

Something like that.

It could also be that canting can reduce the amount of angulation and pressure necessary and thus reduce the amount of pressure, irritation and inflamation.

[tufty]

Riding with absolutely flat bindings almost certainly results in a twisted board whilst riding. It may result in a permanent twist on your board. I have 3 boards from 3 separate manufacturers with the same twist. I now run lifts toe and heel.

[KingCrimson]

Riding with absolutely flat bindings almost certainly results in a twisted board whilst riding. It may result in a permanent twist on your board. I have 3 boards from 3 separate manufacturers with the same twist. I now run lifts toe and heel.

Boards twist anyway, regardless of your stance.

[michael.a]

Weird I ran my front bindings flat today and I dont know if it felt better but my toesides were much much better. Im at that phase where I prefer heelsides to toesides and all of sudden I started loving my toesides, will test it on other boards :)

[Scott Petrie]

A wider stance is generally more stable and more powerful. This is a simple geometric fact. The only time it may not be better is on a very short board where you could end up with more board between your feet than outside your feet.

You should be able to cant/lift your bindings such that it's more comfortable than flat, and thus run a wider stance. It takes some experimentation, but you should be able to get there. Everyone is different, you may prefer toe lift on the front foot and heel lift on the back foot and no cant, or you may end up with that plus some canting, either inward or yes, outward. Or you may end up with one foot flat and the other tilted. Play around and see what works best for you. But ending up with a narrower flat stance is usually a hint that you didn't find your optimum setup.

Jack,

You seem to be very knowledgeable on all levels of the carve. I called Bomber and they are out for the week as I am sure most of you are for the event. I would like to ask you some questions off line if that is possible.

Thanks Scott

[zoltan]

Jack,

You seem to be very knowledgeable on all levels of the carve. I called Bomber and they are out for the week as I am sure most of you are for the event. I would like to ask you some questions off line if that is possible.

Thanks Scott

I'd encourage you to ask your questions in the forum, so that way someone else might benefit from it as well.

[Scott Petrie]

Background- softbooing since 1991-current, East Coast slopes and icy narrows.

I do not not ride the park and just love to ride. I ride an aggresive stance. I am 6'4 and 250 poundish. My current ride is a Burton Canyon 168. I have graced the forum here for about 3 years and am ready to jump in. The problems I see is my size factor. I want to start pieceing together but already seeing problems to start. I spoke to the guys at Prior to have a board done but of course the best start will be boots. I have seen a few threads about a few things but no real answers.

My dogs are a 13.5-14. I have tried the sizing chart, which would be a 31. The only boot that would be close is the Head Stratos and it comes in a 31.5 which may work. My concern is are they strong enough. I tried 31 at the local ski shop but are very snug but it is a ski boot. Similar? Looking at the TD3's, same thing, will they house the the boot. It says contact Bomber for possible options for over 30 Mondo. All in all I am not feeling the warm and fuzzy going into this. So, there it is in a nut shell. I did't mean to single Jack out but he seems to have good responses and looks like he has written a few actilces and could answer the above qestions.

Thanks again for reading.

Head Stratos Pro

[BlueB]

Welcome.

Skip the sizing charts and measure your foot in cm = propper Mondo.

When trying in ski shop, it should fit not just "very snug" but rather "too snug". Try pretty much any Head shell or Dalbello of non-Krypton shape, for similar fit.

To the best of my knowledge, TD3 should hold 31 boot, but Fin or Michelle should know better.

Read the boot sizing articles for more info.

[zoltan]

Background- softbooing since 1991-current, East Coast slopes and icy narrows.

I do not not ride the park and just love to ride. I ride an aggresive stance. I am 6'4 and 250 poundish. My current ride is a Burton Canyon 168. I have graced the forum here for about 3 years and am ready to jump in. The problems I see is my size factor. I want to start pieceing together but already seeing problems to start. I spoke to the guys at Prior to have a board done but of course the best start will be boots. I have seen a few threads about a few things but no real answers.

My dogs are a 13.5-14. I have tried the sizing chart, which would be a 31. The only boot that would be close is the Head Stratos and it comes in a 31.5 which may work. My concern is are they strong enough. I tried 31 at the local ski shop but are very snug but it is a ski boot. Similar? Looking at the TD3's, same thing, will they house the the boot. It says contact Bomber for possible options for over 30 Mondo. All in all I am not feeling the warm and fuzzy going into this. So, there it is in a nut shell. I did't mean to single Jack out but he seems to have good responses and looks like he has written a few actilces and could answer the above qestions.

Thanks again for reading.

Head Stratos Pro

As has been already mentioned, you first need to measure your feet in cm (mondo). You simply cannot go off of shoe size, since it's just too inaccurate. Once you have your real size, then you have a starting point.

Yes, the boots will be strong enough.

While I'm pretty sure the TD3 can hold a size 31, I know the SnowPro and F2 Titanium bindings will definitely hold a size 31.

[Petrol]

Jack,

....I would like to ask you some questions off line if that is possible.

Thanks Scott

Hi Scott, I hit mass-o-nuttin, wintergreen, snowshoe, wintergreen & seven springs. not many hardbooter around these parts. maybe we can ride sometime.

[BlueB]

I know the SnowPro and F2 Titanium bindings will definitely hold a size 31.

Nope. Commonly found Snowpro Race will bearly hold 29. Rare Snowpro "large" can go bigger.

[piusthedrcarve]

As has been already mentioned, you first need to measure your feet in cm (mondo). You simply cannot go off of shoe size, since it's just too inaccurate. Once you have your real size, then you have a starting point.

Yup. that's the starting point. I'm on mp29 boots so if your measurement came less then 30cm, you can try my boots (Deeluxe 700T with BTS) if you come up to Whitetail. I post next riding day at other thread, "Riding at Whitetail"

[Jack M]

Background- softbooing since 1991-current, East Coast slopes and icy narrows.

I do not not ride the park and just love to ride. I ride an aggresive stance. I am 6'4 and 250 poundish. My current ride is a Burton Canyon 168. I have graced the forum here for about 3 years and am ready to jump in. The problems I see is my size factor. I want to start pieceing together but already seeing problems to start. I spoke to the guys at Prior to have a board done but of course the best start will be boots. I have seen a few threads about a few things but no real answers.

My dogs are a 13.5-14. I have tried the sizing chart, which would be a 31. The only boot that would be close is the Head Stratos and it comes in a 31.5 which may work. My concern is are they strong enough. I tried 31 at the local ski shop but are very snug but it is a ski boot. Similar? Looking at the TD3's, same thing, will they house the the boot. It says contact Bomber for possible options for over 30 Mondo. All in all I am not feeling the warm and fuzzy going into this. So, there it is in a nut shell. I did't mean to single Jack out but he seems to have good responses and looks like he has written a few actilces and could answer the above qestions.[/url][/b]

Thanks for the nod. The first step towards carving in hardboots is carving in softboots. You can practice The Norm on your current gear and get to the point where you are linking carved turns on green circle slopes - that is, changing edges before the board points downhill and carving the downhill edge around until it becomes the uphill edge. Then you can take that experience into hardboots.

Bomber has a good policy about sizing boots and being able to return them (unridden of course) after trying them on at home. So I say try the Heads. Failing that, look for an all-mtn ski boot and seek help from good retail shops. As for bindings, yes, contact Bomber. They are away at the SES until the 14th, so you should wait and call them on the phone after that (do not email, they will be swamped with email backlog). Standard Bomber TD3s go to Mondo 30. Step-in TD3s go to Mondo 31, but call to confirm. Catek Longplates go to Mondo 31.5, but ordering anything new from Catek has been problematic for several people on here for the past couple seasons - they are having issues. You can check the classifieds here for a used set, but Bomber's suspension system makes for a more comfortable ride, imo.

For boards, going custom is a good idea, or if you're on a budget I would look for a used Swoard 175 XH or H, or a Donek Blade 180. They are wide. Or heck, a new Donek Blade 180 ($700 - will save you quite a bit over a custom). Basically you want a board that is wide enough for you to mount your bindings no steeper than 60 degrees with no boot overhang.

Hope this helps, good luck!