Free carving and these new plate systems?

[trailertrash]

So has anyone on the east coast ridden (on the east coast) a production plate of the type Bomber and Donek are coming out with? I assume no?

[~tb]

Maybe I will pull out the postal scale later tonight. . . but does anyone else on this thread know how much the rest of a set up weighs?

How much does a boot weigh (with Fintec and BTS)?

how about a TD2/3 or OS2 with all the bells and whistles (including hardware)?

an "average" 185 cm Board?

Plex plates?

What % change are we really talking about here?

[Michael Pukas]

If you haven't ridden a plate, then you have no idea whether or not a plate will be for you. You can speculate all you want, talk smack w/ other doubters, but you won't know until you try it. Plates are certainly not for everyone.

Personally, I think they have huge potential for free carving, free riding, all-mountain riding and even powder. I can see riding a new school rockered powder board w/ a plate and side-winders as being one sweet-ass ride that the park rats will just gawk at slack-jawed in disbelief and non-comprehension as they are mached past. Maybe for pure untracked bottomless pow they are unnecessary, but how often does that happen (if that happens to you so often that you don't "need" a plate, then hats off to you, you lucky barstool!).

About the only place I don't see plates working is for freestyle park & pipe riding - those guys bend twist and torque their boards too much to do what they do. A plate would inhibit this ability.

As far as the added weight goes, you'll get used to it and it'll be a non-issue. If it is an issue, then you won't ride one, and we don't want to hear about how heavy you think it is and how much it hurts your leg on the lift. Did you come out to ride a snowboard or ride the chair lift?

One issue with a plate can be if you have long legs, it can be difficult/impossible to get your board foot on the foot rest and under the safety bar on some lifts. We've seen it happen...

Snow will build up between the plate and the board - and that weighs more then the plate does. You just have to kick it out in the lift line.

The added dampening and mobility of the TD2/3 e-rings may be redundant/unnecessary with a plate. That remains to be seen. Certainly lower height and less weight are better. Both can be reduced and the net gain of height and weight will be less than the actual height/weight of the plate itself.

I can see sidewinders still being useful/effective and working in harmony with a plate.

[lowrider]

It's all about the hardware not so much the plate itself. I have ridden my own hardware at Mt St Anne in the spring time and in Ontario throughout the previous winter, anything flat that you can mount your bindings on will work as a plate the magic is in the hardware.I think Fin has nailed it as far as the best hardware you will find (next to mine):) If you are the type who always wants to try something different, variable hardware placement and a tuneable plate will be the ideal setup.Looks like for now the choice is $1000. or $380. Or maybe a custom plate SGP style.

[Rob Stevens]

When you OWN the terrain, there's no advantage. Perhaps there's more disadvantages already stated in previous posts by Boardski, Pukas, Lowrider and Mike T. I'm not seeing it either, Mike.

In powder and park, you want to be able to, and more importantly CAN, control how your base is presented to the snow for maximum performance. The snow surface has little, or no, ability to overpower you.

When the terrain owns YOU, it's proven you need one to win. The snow surface inputs are just too extreme and rapid to possibly adjust to and any adjustment you did make would be a recovery position and not optimal.

Jasey's final run from the Olys would not have been possible without this tech. He's so still while the board goes crazy, as it is subjected to that pure carve through the ruts and chunder.

Less clear is the FR application. Would it help or hurt on takeoffs and landings? (I have my theorys) Do all types of turn benefit? (I have my theorys) How fast or rough does the snow have to be before it "kicks in"? (I have my theorys)

I'd like to try one on my Salomon 171 Burner, with the leather on, at Kicking Horse when it hasn't snowed in weeks.

[Jack M]

It's all about the hardware not so much the plate itself. I have ridden my own hardware at Mt St Anne in the spring time and in Ontario throughout the previous winter, anything flat that you can mount your bindings on will work as a plate the magic is in the hardware.

The flex of the plate, or lack thereof, will be a factor. I've set foot on tb's Donek proto on dry land, and it is possible to flex the plate with your feet. A plate with flex like that will still allow some displacement of the feet with respect to each other. I don't know if that's universally a bad thing, or if it would be a more forgiving ride for freecarvers or freeriders. Or less forgiving? I dunno.

[SunSurfer]

Sounds like what is really needed is a series of demo days, where riders can try before they buy. Identical boards, with and without plates.

SunSurfer

[MUD]

My question is not with whether or not these systems would be advantageous for free carving.

I am wondering how practical they are for riding all day as the weather changes. The slide mechanisms look to me as they could/would get packed with ice and lock up. I would think this would be worse than no plate at all.......

Please open my mind.

[fin]

Mud,

You bring up a good possible issue with the slide mechanism. I say possible as there have not been any issues reported so far. But this is something I thought of in the design of the Bomber Plate. I have a taper or point inside the area that the slide block moved towards. Not super sharp but it will push stuff to each side.

Is it even an issue to worry about? I don't think it is. Anything that gets in there will be "snow" and will be blasted out of the way on the next turn. Not to mention the force we create in that turn translates to uber-high forces on that slide block. If something icy did get in there I suspect you would just pulverized it in the first turn.

[Donek]

My question is not with whether or not these systems would be advantageous for free carving.

I am wondering how practical they are for riding all day as the weather changes. The slide mechanisms look to me as they could/would get packed with ice and lock up. I would think this would be worse than no plate at all.......

Please open my mind.

The snow building up has been discussed. The rib on the bottom of our plate functions as a stiffener, but the shape and design was chosen to help remove snow from the system. My slider is UHMW (the same as your base) and stainless so snow may get in there, but is unlikely to stick to it.

[colintkemp]

Sean (and Fin),

Can you comment on how effective the plate systems will be if one uses a traditional 4x4 hole patterns to mount the plate to the board? (I thought I saw that this would be an option.) Based on the recent video (Sean's), it seems that we are moving away from traditional hole patterns (assuming one is going to use one of the new plates) and that there is considerable benefit to that for a plate - i.e., it allows the plate to function as intended. I would think mounting 4x4 would take away a lot of the benefit. Am I wrong?

Thanks for sharing all of your ongoing efforts, videos, etc. It is very interesting.

Colin

[Donek]

Sean (and Fin),

Can you comment on how effective the plate systems will be if one uses a traditional 4x4 hole patterns to mount the plate to the board? (I thought I saw that this would be an option.) Based on the recent video (Sean's), it seems that we are moving away from traditional hole patterns (assuming one is going to use one of the new plates) and that there is considerable benefit to that for a plate - i.e., it allows the plate to function as intended. I would think mounting 4x4 would take away a lot of the benefit. Am I wrong?

Thanks for sharing all of your ongoing efforts, videos, etc. It is very interesting.

Colin

I'm not certain on a performance benefit. In reality, the hardware basically flips over on my setup. The components mounted to the plate in a UPM essentially get mounted to the board in a 4X4 and vise versa. As a result I don't know that there is a significant mechanical advantage from one to the other as all the forces go through a similar path. The problem arises with the spacing of a 4X4 and the shortened lever arm that results. We had bending of parts in the destructive testing on the 4X4 where they didn't bend in the UPM. As a result it was necessary to make certain components stronger and heavier on the 4X4 system. I'm sure the gap will close in the future, but for the time being the UPM hole pattern makes it simpler to make a lighter/stronger system

[fin]

colintkemp,

I talked a bit about this in another thread I can't locate right now. However, one thing to remember is that these plates are relatively new so a lot of this is (and I admit it) speculation.

I believe the UPM version has some advantages as it essentially uses a wider stance and pattern. What I think this does is add more rigidity to the entire system and keeps the plate and board torsionally in place while still allowing the board to bend longitudinally. This wider stance also put the contact point of the plate closer to the edge of the board. Some might say this puts more power to the edge of the board where it counts. Also, the pattern (being wider) is just stronger as far as insert retention. And finally the UPM pattern is consistent. It is the same on all boards where the 4 hole pattern has a different center to center distance depending on the board.

I think the 4 hole version however might have some benefits for the free-carver as it will "attach" closer to the middle of the board which should allow the board itself to twist a bit more under foot. Of course this also depends on how the plate manufacturer makes their hardware.

I agree with ~tb on his post above, hardware will be a big determinate on these plates and especially the pivots and sliders. One thing for the plate to act nice and tight and smooth on the first day. But if it turns into a rattle trap with the tolerance of an old lawn chair after a week, that won't make anyone happy. Ever had the rear triangle on your full suspension mnt bike rattle/move side to side? Man, I hate that

[lowrider]

After a season riding on the SGP hardware no issues with ice or snow impeding on the function of the plate hardware. There was some snow build up under the plate but was easily brushed out when putting board in vehicle at the end of day. Spring slush was heavier but not enough for me to consider riding without a plate. The benifits are just too great to ignore. As a word of caution to anyone wanting to be the first out on the hills with a plate this season. Don't be too hasty there are lots of options out there and they are all different in lots of respects. Don't trash talk because you were to quick to jump on the first plate and ride down a hill. Think flex, hardware construction,plate construction, stack height and weight,and $$$. Have you heard anything about these points when discussing plates and hardware ?? If you haven't slow down listen to you wife, what's the hurry, try a plate if you can ask around ,look and learn,after all the last thing you want to do is end up with another Hangel or Vist bolted to your board when the latest bling is something else. :lol::lol::lol: I like the SGP but i have a personal bias.

[lowrider]

Jack i think the issue of plate flex is going to be an interesting one, as we can see from Seans video it is possible to make a plate stiff enough to eliminate bending of the plate but you may still want the ability to pull your knees together for balance or comfort and with a stiff plate this would not be possible. However with a softer flex it would be possible and would not cause the board to deflect as it would without the plate. The primary benefit of the plate hardware is seperate from the benefit of a soft or stiff flex plate. Maybe a good seperation would be to define the plate choice as "race" or "recreation" but the hardware stays the same. Stack height then will go into the category of obsessive engineering

[philw]

Sure, I'd try one if I had a chance.

[...]I can see riding a new school rockered powder board w/ a plate and side-winders as being one sweet-ass ride that the park rats will just gawk at slack-jawed in disbelief and non-comprehension as they are mached past. Maybe for pure untracked bottomless pow they are unnecessary, but how often does that happen (if that happens to you so often that you don't "need" a plate, then hats off to you, you lucky barstool!).

Ahem, well it's there if you know how to get it.

I'll happily test one of those in bottomless powder. But it would be more weight/volume in the ski basket, and I'm not convinced that you get that much mid-board flex in a powder ride (the tail flex is the most important bit).

If you ride hard gear you already get disbelief from most people in powder. Then when you've ridden rings around them they explain that by classing you as something different from a snowboarder. I don't think more technology will help particularly, although sexy carbon fibre looking stuff may help.

Build one which is EST compatible (!) and it'd make Burton powder boards ride-able again... that would be neat.

[Jack M]

but you may still want the ability to pull your knees together for balance or comfort

I can't think of a case where knees together improves balance. Or comfort for that matter.

[bobdea]

I can't think of a case where knees together improves balance. Or comfort for that matter.

lol, yeah, the day glo is required for it to work.

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[lowrider]

I think some movement is desirable for comfort and perhaps drawing your knees together may not be effective in controlling your board it can provide comfort.If that were not the case why would Sidewinders be so comfortable to ride on ? Emery proved years ago with their first incarnation and Fin has proved it again for another generation.

[Seraph]

Sounds like what is really needed is a series of demo days, where riders can try before they buy. Identical boards, with and without plates.

SunSurfer

I'm hoping that Fin and Sean will be bringing plenty of demos to SES this year.

Maybe an early season demo day at Loveland too?

[softbootsurfer]

I can't think of a case where knees together improves balance. Or comfort for that matter.

Everything is in transition, in a state of flux going from here to there...

I can not think of one alpine coach or racer that believes what you stated here. :lol:

[bobdea]

ohhh boy, this is crazy.

[pow4ever]

never mind... i give up embed youtube video

[Jack M]

Everything is in transition, in a state of flux going from here to there...

I can not think of one alpine coach or racer that believes what you stated here. :lol:

What? I've never seen any picture or video of any racer in the modern era riding a course with their knees jammed together.

[philw]

Knees: sure, that was back in the day. I still ride with some guys (softies) who're stuck with that style and which they probably learnt from KC. They still rock, but that's not quite the point, and most people moved on once we figured out better approaches.

[... stuff reasonably pointing out that this stuff works...] But I don't think the knock-kneed demo illustrates how actual legs work in a turn. I say this because my legs bear little resemblance to the straight, unhinged shafts used in the video.

Precisely. All that does is to use the length of the bits of wood to amplify the effect of the minor curvature changes in the board caused by a point load at the centre through the two fulcrums. It illustrates that the plate isolates that curvature from the 4x4 mountings. It doesn't attempt to model the real life situation even statically. It's misleading to draw an analogy between two unloaded bits of wood and your legs. If your legs look like that, perhaps you have other problems.

I can already run my boards in reverse camber and cut clean circles in the snow, knees apart. That works for hardboots or no-boards. So that's real life examples which disprove the analogy for piste and powder.

But you get the argument two ways: the other is that the plates stop the board flexing, which is kind of funny because it's almost the opposite of the other argument. I buy neither: my boards do flex, and they do it well enough that I've never noticed the marketing "flat spots" or any other issues with the curve they cut. Clearly my need for and sensitivity to the board arc is somewhat less than a PGS racer: I'm not arguing that isolation doesn't have some effect, I'm arguing that it's nothing like as large as suggested here.

What works in F1 sometimes has application in road cars, and sometimes it doesn't. In this case... well you have to ride them to see; I have not, so I don't know if what works with PGS boards will work for what I do.

If you're suffering fatigue in normal riding then probably fitness or style are the issue, and more toys won't help with those. Ditto riding "challenging" snow: people whine about that and talk about "carving" slopes: you can carve any slope on today's gear, and new toys won't help you if you can't.

I will try these when I can and if they're good I'll use them. I hope I don't have to, as an inelegant system in my view and it brings even more complexity and weight, both of which are negative aspects of hardbooting.