Tell Me About (TMA) how to adjust your carving radius

[Seraph]

All,

I know its hard to make suggestions based on an individual snapshot, but if you see something egregious in the photo above, please post.

Thanks,

[Jack M]

I know its hard to make suggestions based on an individual snapshot, but if you see something egregious in the photo above, please post.

Looks fine Seraph, for the speed you appear to be going. Try keeping your head more level, you'll have better balance.

[big mario]

photo from my last carving session:

Dan,

Do you have a Toeside you can post?

Your body position looks good, you are looking through your turn to the next, but what is missing is what is going on in between and during the turn. Do you think you can make it over to lovey on sunday?

mario

[BobD]

photo from my last carving session:

So for what it's worth, I see a couple of things that may, or may not be going on here.

As others have said, the general body position is not too bad. The head tilted outwards looks a little unbalanced. Almost as if you have counter rotated a little through the turn, and everything is starting to feel on the edge of losing it. The big thing the photo says to me is "static." That is, you get on edge, and just balance your way around the turn. What make a carve stick is edge pressure, and it comes from vertical motion. Your body's mass has to move down, and then up again, to pressure the edge downwards into the snow. Good carvers use some degree of vertical motion all the time, often so subtle that it is not apparent. I think when learning to do this, you need to exaggerate the movements. Sink really fast into the turn, and rise very slowly through the turn. Don't worry about looking silly, throw your arms up and down, but really exaggerate it until you feel it.

Your original question is related to this vertical motion. At the start of the turn, this downward pressure is directed more to the nose, by actively shifting forward. Just shifting forward alone won't do much, unless it's combined with some downward pressure to engage the nose.

[Dave ESPI]

I didn't realise I needed to push the envlope and throw down "hardkore Olympic Steez"be a "bigshot" @ SES or anywhere else for that matter. I was focused on returning UNBROKEN from a trip when I didnt feel 100% at ease in completely new surroundings, unfamiliar with the trails, conditions, demos or didnt have a board under me that I was completely comfortable on. Yeah, I do ride cautious, but I also will rip when I find conditions to my approval. There was a few days and times I was out and had no problems laying down stiff lines and railing turns but I will be sure to adjust that next year as apparently a few people are quick to run their fingers on a keyboard rather than say it in person with smack talk..... :rolleyes:

Sorry, I know how to snowboard, I have to work on the being an eletist prick a bit harder next season.

Oh and as to how to adjust the radius..............

try leaning forward with your head and arms in a SUPERMAN flight mode... apparently its the latest rage in style.

[BobD]

I made these illustrations of the how to pressure the edges downward for skiing, but the principle is the same.

Tip the board on edge, and then sink your body quickly downwards to the inside of the turn. The end of this movement establishes the edge pressure.

To maintain the pressure, you lever the edges downwards by slowly rising upwards.

I think it helps, if you think of these movements as going up and down in the vertical plane inside the turn, rather than sinking outward towards the board.

[Seraph]

I made these illustrations of the how to pressure the edges downward for skiing, but the principle is the same.

BobD,

Thanks for adding those illustrations. After reading your post last night, the first thing I thought of was the parallel to skiing movements (which I was taught to think of as weighting/unweighting), and was going to post a reply asking if you thought the motions were similar. With that commonality in mind, it hit me that you are spot on in regards to my being static and just riding the board through the turn not trying to work the carve or pressure the board, very different from what I do when I ski. With that in mind, I've gone back and watched some carving videos looking for that up/down unweighting/weighting movement and I see it and I'm a little surprised I hadn't noticed it before. I guess when you are trying to learn a lot of new movements some things get lost in the mix.

Jim,

Yup on the hands, I do find that rear hand drifting back if I don't think about keeping it forward.

Jack,

Yup, the head thing is a definite must fix. I've done that in other sports too and need to be conscious of fixing it.

Mario,

No toeside photos, but will meet up with LCI on Sunday.

[carvedog]

BobD,

Jack,

Yup, the head thing is a definite must fix. I've done that in other sports too and need to be conscious of fixing it.

the hand itself is not the problem as much to me as it is a symptom of the root which is that back shoulder moving back and up. Think about "rolly" shoulders. So with your hand in the same position see if you can flex your back and shoulders enough to get your hand to start hitting your knee and/or sliding down your back boot and then to your front boot. That will also put your center of mass over the board more.

[BobD]

BobD,

Thanks for adding those illustrations. After reading your post last night, the first thing I thought of was the parallel to skiing movements (which I was taught to think of as weighting/unweighting), and was going to post a reply asking if you thought the motions were similar. With that commonality in mind, it hit me that you are spot on in regards to my being static and just riding the board through the turn not trying to work the carve or pressure the board, very different from what I do when I ski. With that in mind, I've gone back and watched some carving videos looking for that up/down unweighting/weighting movement and I see it and I'm a little surprised I hadn't noticed it before. I guess when you are trying to learn a lot of new movements some things get lost in the mix.

Often movements are subtle and hard to spot, but the best way to feel them, is to exaggerate them.

So if you are comparing this to skiing, the advantage that I see a snowboard having over skis for carving, is the way a snowboarder can shift weight fore and aft. On skis you can do two things to move edge pressure forward. Pressure the front of the boot cuff, but once your legs are inclined, this is no longer a strictly downwards pressure. or rotate the legs into the turn, which is a more downward pressure. On a snowboard, combining a shift forward, with the weighting movement, will hook up the nose of the board, and tighten the turn. After that, remember Jack's "feeding the dollar bill into the vending machine" analogy, and slowly shift back through the turn.

[Jack M]

I didn't realise I needed to push the envlope and throw down "hardkore Olympic Steez"be a "bigshot" @ SES or anywhere else for that matter. I was focused on returning UNBROKEN from a trip when I didnt feel 100% at ease in completely new surroundings, unfamiliar with the trails, conditions, demos or didnt have a board under me that I was completely comfortable on. Yeah, I do ride cautious, but I also will rip when I find conditions to my approval. There was a few days and times I was out and had no problems laying down stiff lines and railing turns but I will be sure to adjust that next year as apparently a few people are quick to run their fingers on a keyboard rather than say it in person with smack talk..... :rolleyes:

Sorry, I know how to snowboard, I have to work on the being an eletist prick a bit harder next season.

No Dave, you don't get it. While I have not personally seen you ride, I have heard from many well-established experts on this forum who have seen you ride at the SES, ECES, and elsewhere, that you do not know how to carve. Feel free to post technique advice when you have mastered it. Until then, please refrain.

[Call me jack]

to tightening your turn radius you have to do the same thing superman does to fly faster; give it more...

...wait... how does he fly faster? just more "whoosh"?

any way, i have found that on my Donek axxess, you really have to pressure to the nose when you start you turn. Which is particularly tricky on heel side because you need to add more nose pound than usually. Idk if your ax is like this but mine has a really soft nose, and i feel like it's always a balancing act between getting enough weight forward, and not flat-out stuffing it... Just my 2 cents... sorry i can't go into more detail, but i haven't seen snow in more than 2 months, so it's all a little fuzzy.

[Jack M]

After that, remember Jack's "feeding the dollar bill into the vending machine" analogy, and slowly shift back through the turn.

Ok, now that he is posting here (about 7-10 years late I might add ;) ) I must say that I got that analogy from Beckman.

[Corey]

to tightening your turn radius you have to do the same thing superman does to fly faster; give it more...

...wait... how does he fly faster? just more "whoosh"?

Awesome! :lol:

[Erik J]

To turn tighter, turn the control knob up to eleven.

[KingCrimson]

The declaration of one's rippage is a confirmation of its glaring absense.

[NateW]

Allow me to provide a contrary perspective: I don't adjust my carving radius. Not mid-carve, anyway.

When I'm in a traverse, I consider my speed, the snow, and the pitch of the hill, and the board I'm on. I adjust the entry to the carve so that I'll exit in a reasonable place. I lean in, arc around, and exit. Mid-carve, I'm just focused on not falling. A trip down my favorite carving runs goes like this: plan, adjust, enter, carve, exit, plan the next turn...

When I start a turn, I'm committed to exit the turn wherever that entrance and carve sends me. Maybe this means I suck at carving. So be it. I compensate by being pretty good at planning. I usually exit my carves pretty much where I expected to be when I entered, and I have yet to fly off the edge of the piste or hit anything or anyone. :)

At low speeds, flats, approaching lift lines, etc, then I actually do try to adjust my carves a little, using angulation to tighten it up a little bit when my speed is low. But mostly I still just try to plan a line that will let me carve as much as possible without angulating.

[Beckmann AG]

Originally Posted by BobD

After that, remember Jack's "feeding the dollar bill into the vending machine" analogy, and slowly shift back through the turn.

Ok, now that he is posting here (about 7-10 years late I might add ) I must say that I got that analogy from Beckman.

Sometimes, when you get to a party too early, all you have is a bunch of loud drunkards that need to talk about themselves. At great length. Later, when the din has died down, and the buzz has 'castra ponere', you may find yourself immersed in fairly interesting, productive conversations.

Not that I would know anything about parties, mind you, but I suspect that scenario is plausible.

While there are any number of things that can be attributed to me, I am reasonably certain the aforementioned analogy is not one of them. The first time I heard that one, it was credited to Bob Jenney.

Like parties, I tend to avoid vending machines.

[Jack M]

Haha... no, Bob got it from me. Then if I didn't hear it from you, now that I think some more I think it came from.... BUSTER!

[Beckmann AG]

The declaration of one's rippage is a confirmation of its glaring absense.

Have you something equally concise/witty for those who heed their need to denigrate riders of purportedly lesser rippage?

And for all concerned parties:

Are definitive metrics employed in the determination of rip/not rip? Or is it something akin to pronography; which often eludes precise definition, yet you know it when you see it?

For instance, I can successfully open a bag of chips while riding, but I'm not sure that really counts?

Incidentally King, from the look of your avatar, you're doing alright for a 'twobie'. (As a freshly minted 'Carver Extraordinaire', I feel I now have license to say such things).

Onward...

I know its hard to make suggestions based on an individual snapshot, but if you see something egregious in the photo above, please post.

Seraph,

In order to vary the radius/shape of a given turn, you need to vary the inputs that brought you into to the turn, as well as cope with the outputs the board sends your way. I will refer you back to the article you posted in this thread:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29014

Re-read the section on dedicated practice.

In a way, you identified part of the solution in the second and third sentence of your initial post.

What I'm curious about is when I throw my hip over to initiate my turn, I'm basically locking into a carve and its a big radius. I ride it through toeside, go into my heelside, and again big radius.

As in the golf analogy, many riders begin their hardboot experience searching for a way to make something/anything work. More often than not, given the restricted range of movement imposed on the rider by rigid boots and questionable binding configuration, this means some articulation in the midsection is required to affect the relationship between the board and the snow. It works, up to a point, but it is far from ideal (unless your goal is to sit on the snow and fill your pockets with same in mid-turn). Moving a large section of your body as a means of turn initiation is slow, not particularly accurate, and does not leave much room for error, in either timing or range. And at some point, this mass needs to move away from the inside of the turn before the next turn can commence. Lastly, moving the hips/butt inside (and forward) on the heelside invariably moves too much pressure towards the nose of the board, often at a time when said pressure should be moving back towards the tail to release the board from the turn.

Unfortunately, a rider reliant upon such midsection articulations will then be reliant, primarily, on the 'crossover' mode of edge change. This requires a fair amount of time, and area, to pull off. This often stands as a limiting factor for the pitch and trail which the rider may utilize. (I realize that many choose to ride this way, but they ultimately limit themselves by doing so; and by gaining proficiency with this mode of riding, thoroughly ingrain the associated movement patterns. This makes adoption of alternative, more versatile, movements difficult.)

Change of line, etc, is much easier when most of your actual mass is stacked up over the board, in line with the loads supplied by the centripetal acceleration of the turning board. Returning to the notion and tenets of 'dedicated practice', I would suggest trying to find a way to bias your weight to the heelside edge (as this is the turn in the photo) without hanging your rear end so far off to the side.

Inside, on the carpet, you may find that it is possible to bias your weight to the heel edge, (which is a pre-courser to tilting the board), using directed movements of your ankles (inversion/eversion), slight, passive knee flexion, facilitated by a bit of rotational movement at your femoral heads. Weight the rear heel before the front heel. More often then not, this will allow you to make the movement towards the heel edge with both feet simultaneously, rather than front foot first. (Such simultaneity tends to reduce the propensity for skid on the heelside, as the rider stands more 'centered'). These are small movements, and, as such, are fairly easy to attenuate while stationary, or in motion. Conversely, if you hang yourself off to the side as in the photo while at rest, sans momentum, you will likely tip over. Try this first without boots, then try it on your bindings without boots, then try it with boots on. As you switch modes, look for the ways in which your chosen setup interferes with easy movement from edge to edge, and work to remove said obstructions.

You touched upon some of this lower extremity stuff in post #43, but the photo indicates a lack of successful assimilation.

Assuming you can tilt the board with smaller body parts, you stand a good chance of starting the turn earlier, which means you can impart more tilt to the board, which brings the turn around quicker, und so weite.

In this day and age, with so many quality boards to choose from, angulation should be considered a byproduct, not a means to an end.

Back on snow, if you find you have to sit into the turn, at least try to tilt the board before you do so.

You should not need to flex/extend to begin a turn, at least not on (what appears to be in the photo) gentle terrain. Similarly, pressure underfoot should develop as the board tries to affect your line of travel, not because you are actively pushing on it. If your ski racing days were pre K2 Four, the movements you developed then will stand as a liability now, as your flexing and extending will be 180 degrees out of phase. Many riders provide way too much in the way of pressuring movements by way of flexion extension; such inputs generally hinder, rather than hasten, progress.

Incidentally, the behavior of your hands and head are counterbalancing the mass of your midsection, providing some semblance of stability. By all means, pay attention to what your hands are doing and where they are going while moving from turn to turn. Trying to 'fix' their location, however, is largely a fools errand. When the movements of the lower extremities are appropriate, so too will be the behavior of the upper extremities.

As a lack of peripheral vision can have an effect on how/when you move, make a few turns with your goggles up.

Do you normally stand a little bowlegged, or is that an illusion? If the former, you may wish to cant your bindings inward slightly.

Good luck on your new board...

[BobD]

You should not need to flex/extend to begin a turn, at least not on (what appears to be in the photo) gentle terrain. Similarly, pressure underfoot should develop as the board tries to affect your line of travel, not because you are actively pushing on it. If your ski racing days were pre K2 Four, the movements you developed then will stand as a liability now, as your flexing and extending will be 180 degrees out of phase. Many riders provide way too much in the way of pressuring movements by way of flexion extension; such inputs generally hinder, rather than hasten, progress.

A lot of great perspective to think about.

Although eventually the pressuring of the edge can be achieved with almost straight legs (witness guys that ride well in stiff ski boots), do you not think that initially, exaggerating flexion and extension through the turn, is a way to start feeling the effect ? Suddenly you get lower than ever before, you play with the concept, and eventually refine the movement.

[KingCrimson]

Have you something equally concise/witty for those who heed their need to denigrate riders of purportedly lesser rippage?

Normality. ;)

And for all concerned parties:

Are definitive metrics employed in the determination of rip/not rip? Or is it something akin to pronography; which often eludes precise definition, yet you know it when you see it?

Absolutely. When one can get away pointing with out the demerits of criticism based on their own presumed ability, uber rippage 6x highscore has been attained. This is under the condition one's own ability is rhetorically being treated as unremarkable.

For instance, I can successfully open a bag of chips while riding, but I'm not sure that really counts?

Incidentally King, from the look of your avatar, you're doing alright for a 'twobie'. (As a freshly minted 'Carver Extraordinaire', I feel I now have license to say such things).

Whoa buddy, let's not get Olympic Hardkore here.

As for flexion/extension being out of phase, I don't entirely agree. That's a huge can of worms as it's not the same as hop turns on skis.

Bordy kickin' it like Stein in WM's Ski A La Carte

[Seraph]

Beckmann AG,

well.....that is a lot to take in. I slowly read and re-read your post several times to make sure I understood the wisdom you were trying to impart. I can't promise that it will sink in the first time I attempt to translate it to action, or even after several attempts...I guess that is where the diligent practice will come in.

BTW, I'm not bowlegged so I think it's a camera angle thing. I've experimented with different canting setups and I'm currently riding flat which seems to feel the most comfortable right now. I will also keep this in mind should others note this in the future.

Thanks for taking the time to craft such an extensive and detailed post. It is great to have a forum where the responses can be so informative and useful (hopefully to others besides myself.) I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.

Time to cogitate.

[buster]

Haha... no, Bob got it from me. Then if I didn't hear it from you, now that I think some more I think it came from.... BUSTER!

wasn't me!

[bobdea]

Have you something equally concise/witty for those who heed their need to denigrate riders of purportedly lesser rippage?

And for all concerned parties:

Are definitive metrics employed in the determination of rip/not rip? Or is it something akin to pronography; which often eludes precise definition, yet you know it when you see it?

For instance, I can successfully open a bag of chips while riding, but I'm not sure that really counts?

Incidentally King, from the look of your avatar, you're doing alright for a 'twobie'. (As a freshly minted 'Carver Extraordinaire', I feel I now have license to say such things).

I taken a piss while strapped in more than once and did not even dribble on my pants. even while moving a couple times.

go easy on the lad, he's usually well behaved here and he's also still in high school.

[Beckmann AG]

do you not think that initially, exaggerating flexion and extension through the turn, is a way to start feeling the effect ? Suddenly you get lower than ever before, you play with the concept, and eventually refine the movement.

The role of active flexion and extension is bi-fold: One part as a proper suspension system for isolation of the upper body mass , while the other as a means of pressure/rebound management,rather than generation.

Granted, some flexion does allow for a greater range of movement 'across' the board, which can facilitate edge engagement. This is a big help when discretionary articulation at the ankle joint is blocked, either by iffy interface configuration, or by muscle tension.

Involving a bunch of flexion/extension early in the learning process is a good way for a rider to get tangled up and standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. If a rider is not cleanly and consistently on and off the sidecut from one turn to the next, they really don't have much to 'push' against anyway.

Introducing movement options out of sequence generally proves to be problematic. Besides, one can do quite a bit of turn shape/size manipulation without involving flexion and extension. Exaggeration of flexion/extension while in a turn to get a sense of 'loading' the board is timing sensitive, which means there are, depending on your viewpoint, either 180 or 360 opportunities to screw it up.

Better to feel the board pushing back at you in a context where fewer tasks are to be accomplished. This can be done on a steep pitch making single, deep sidecut arcs down, across, and up out of the fall line to a stop on each end.

There is a big difference between riding 'dynamic' and wasteful, and being 'dynamic' and effective. The problem is, the former looks more impressive than the latter, because the latter can often be viewed as 'static'. Good riding is comprised mostly of those things the eye is slow to grasp.

I realize that 'getting low' is a pre-occupation for many, and that is all well and good. Unfortunately, this goal often interferes with effective assimilation of effective movements.

Absolutely. When one can get away pointing with out the demerits of criticism based on their own presumed ability, uber rippage 6x highscore has been attained. This is under the condition one's own ability is rhetorically being treated as unremarkable.

Look, my wits are dull, and my machete is in the shop. Would you mind hacking a bit of meaning out of this thicket for me?

As for flexion/extension being out of phase, I don't entirely agree. That's a huge can of worms as it's not the same as hop turns on skis.

If you're thinking hop turns, then your disagreement comes as no surprise. The role of flexion/extension, particularly in the technical ski events, changed quite a bit with the wholesale adoption of more pronounced sidecuts. For a skier accustomed to straight skis, a phase shift in flexion/extension is required for optimal use of contemporary skis, particularly in a race course. As in hardbooting, it is certainly possible to ski 'modern' shapes without shifting phase.

It's simply not as effective.

I've experimented with different canting setups and I'm currently riding flat which seems to feel the most comfortable right now.

So much of how we ride is dependent on how we set up our gear. Obviously, this will vary based on bone structure, musculature, and chosen goals. Given the geometry of most hardboots, the number of riders who truly benefit from riding 'flat' is fairly small.

Thanks for taking the time to craft such an extensive and detailed post.

I hope it proves useful.

My keyboard was lonely and demanded some digital stimulation.

go easy on the lad, he's usually well behaved here and he's also still in high school.

I was being sincere with both the inquiry, as well as the comment on the avatar.