Tell Me About (TMA) how to adjust your carving radius

[bobdea]

Maybe (just maybe)the recreational rider doesn't necessarily need the same things in a 'Plate System' that a racer does How about separate plates front and back, allowing the board to flex torsionally with 'recreational riders input' .

yeah, it's called a hangl or s-flex

[Seraph]

As I read through this post one thing that has yet to be mentioned is head/ eye position. Head/ eye position is critical, are you looking to where you want to go?? I usually spy a tree or some other fixed object on the opposite side of the run and focus on that. You want a tighter turn, look further up the hill for something. By locking in on something it brings your shoulders and chest across the hill. I have seen many carvers look down the hill, their chests are facing that way also. They get the long radius turns that you describe in your original post.

I learned this lesson when I used to water ski competitively. When you are skiing a slalom course and rounding the turn bouys, going from one side of the boat to the other one thing that a coach will always say is " Don't look at the turn ball. Look at it and you will ski right to it". This will get you in trouble as you make you way down the slalom course. Coach always told me to fixate 4 feet in front of the turn bouy and ski to that point. Again, by rotating your head and looking to where you want to go this brings your shoulders and chest into position also.

In the carving world we just have gravity to fight against but when it comes to slalom skiing that boat is pulling you down the slalom course at 36 mph, 34 if you're my age. You are in a literal tug o' war with the boat. Incorrect body position that boat will win every time.

I strongly suggest you go and hook up with Mario and the rest of the LCI. They have offered me suggestions that helped me out on my riding!!

Good point, but I don't think it's applicable in this case. From my ski racing days I learned to look two gates ahead, so when I'm carving I start by looking to my intended apex and then follow through to the end point of the C. Works great when I am not choosy about my arc and the general area where I end up at the completion of the turn. I run into problems when I pick a point for my apex (a pile of snow or some type of marking) that is too tight and it screws up my engagement of the carve, then I end up not locking in and slarving, skidding. Thus the question about being able to adjust the carving radius without having to slarve or skid.

[valsam]

valsam has fun doing his gig man. smaller sandbox maybe. no offense.

I supported you wanting to drag it sometimes but don't think that worn out clothes are a substitute for good race technique.

Theo - I can't say that I have ridden with a plate but I put a lot of torque and twist into my boards all the time. Can't really imagine not being able to. I would try if a plate was available. Pedaling is a great way to get a lot earlier turn that what you should be able to from a long board.

I know you gyus have seen these vids but i have to ask this to all of you,

Which technique do you guys think looks better ?

THIS ONE >

OR THIS ONE> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DhFQoC2kPw

For me race technique riding doesn't look good any more!

Rode like that(not like those champs,i mean that technique!)for years and going mach with flying arms all over trying to turn as fast as possible kicking and slipping isn't for me anymore!

Yes the technique of riding to wear out those clothes is a substitute for a good race technique!

And definitely has a much more "WOW" factor!

After 7 years of skiing i got board and turned to hardbooting then after another 11 years of alpine snowboarding got board of that to so when i stumbled on these swoard videos 3 years ago a new world opened up for me!

[KingCrimson]

valsam has fun doing his gig man. smaller sandbox maybe. no offense.

I supported you wanting to drag it sometimes but don't think that worn out clothes are a substitute for good race technique.

Theo - I can't say that I have ridden with a plate but I put a lot of torque and twist into my boards all the time. Can't really imagine not being able to. I would try if a plate was available. Pedaling is a great way to get a lot earlier turn that what you should be able to from a long board.

I still don't see WHY it is desirable to twist the board unless the objective is to slide.

I don't argue that many people twist their boards, I do it to some degree as well. In fact, I used to have this really stupid problem with my heelside where my back knee would "fall" behind my front knee, and twist the board, causing chatter.

I still question the same thing.

Why are ALL successful race boards so torsionally stiff? Why do boards have carbon butterflies and decoupling plates to decrease torsional compliance underfoot?

Does anyone know of a specific application for pedalling, and the mechanism by which it aids in such a maneuver?

[carvedog]

This video contains content from International Olympic Committee, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.

That was on the second one.

What I don't like about most of the EC vids and EC in general is that it seems like they use body dragging as a substitute for good turn shape and for speed control. Too slow for me.

I don't mind dragging once in a while, but over time it will lead to a big clothes bill and ruined body parts. Whether finger, shoulder, hip or other, I don't think you can EC all the time without hurting something.

I also see the boards go wobble, wobble, wobble as they depressure the edge when dragging. I don't like that.

[pokkis]

Fully disagree, if you look last years films you see guys riding on same level as J&P with Swoards, and this year quality was even higher.

[carvedog]

I still don't see WHY it is desirable to twist the board unless the objective is to slide.

Why are ALL successful race boards so torsionally stiff? Why do boards have carbon butterflies and decoupling plates to decrease torsional compliance underfoot?

Does anyone know of a specific application for pedalling, and the mechanism by which it aids in such a maneuver?

Twisting the board can help to release your edge earlier. Particularly helpful if you are on a long board and don't want to get stuck in a turn. It can also help you to tighten the radius of a turn. Used the other way it can help you to slide a little if needed or just widen the trench enough to change direction and velocity.

Most think of pedaling with the front foot. Try getting in your groove carving someday, then when you are comfortable - instead of moving your front knee or both knees simultaneously down the hill to the new turn, try using just your back knee.

Things can happen quickly so be careful. It's fun to play with asymmetric body movements to see what you can get out of the board.

Again keep in mind I haven't ridden with a plate and I ride a stiff board. Most boards that I have ridden are way soft torsionally. Too soft. I can still carve a super model or a canyon but you have to be so careful and gentle otherwise you twist the edge right out of the carve.

So I welcome the stiffening things being done on boards. Just something to play with - the board twist thing that is.

[pokkis]

Swoard guys, dont count me to that :) i dont own or ride it, i ride with Coiler NSR

If i understand correctly they try to have fun when they carve, and it looks that they have good time. Unfortunately i dont understand your question, what you try to achieve with that?

[KingCrimson]

Twisting the board can help to release your edge earlier. Particularly helpful if you are on a long board and don't want to get stuck in a turn. It can also help you to tighten the radius of a turn. Used the other way it can help you to slide a little if needed or just widen the trench enough to change direction and velocity.

Most think of pedaling with the front foot. Try getting in your groove carving someday, then when you are comfortable - instead of moving your front knee or both knees simultaneously down the hill to the new turn, try using just your back knee.

Things can happen quickly so be careful. It's fun to play with asymmetric body movements to see what you can get out of the board.

Again keep in mind I haven't ridden with a plate and I ride a stiff board. Most boards that I have ridden are way soft torsionally. Too soft. I can still carve a super model or a canyon but you have to be so careful and gentle otherwise you twist the edge right out of the carve.

So I welcome the stiffening things being done on boards. Just something to play with - the board twist thing that is.

I'll try playing with it.

Right now I'm SUPER happy with my transitions, because I'm at the point where I have 2/3 board length overlap.

I find I initiate my new turn with the new inside hand, not the knees. I'm kinda weird.

[carvedog]

I'll try playing with it.

Right now I'm SUPER happy with my transitions, because I'm at the point where I have 2/3 board length overlap.

I find I initiate my new turn with the new inside hand, not the knees. I'm kinda weird.

The thing to remember about turn initiation is that something has to move towards the new edge - right? Hand, hip, knee head - something moves down the hill ( in a hard carve ) and toward the new edge.

If you can narrow that down to the most efficient and quickest reacting way to do that you will be amazed at what goes on and how you can play with it.

Good of you to stay open.

[KingCrimson]

I meant my leading hand.

I guess in initiating like that, I'm already angulated for the new turn before my knees and mass cross over. This may be a vulnerable moment. I just hit the two year anniversary for strapping on snow sliding gear, I still have a lot of time to figure out the best way to initiate!

I can't believe I got myself into a technique discussion!

;)

Theo

[leeho730]

Gain 50lbs, the board WILL bend.

In other words. You must Load the board to bend it tighter.

More edge angle, more pressure on the center of the board = tighter radius.

And not to forget D-Sub's favorite tip. "Be more Dynamic" !!!

+1

About swoard...

I believe width helps with toeside turn where a rider lay down during a turn. Also makes the whole carving experience a bit relaxed. Good for beginners as well.

But I do agree about the slow edge-to-edge transition. And on not-so-good conditions, the board seems to struggle a bit, but that's just my thought.

I've been using swoard as my main board but I'm also considering another board to nail some narrow steep sections. Perhaps donek fc (163 or 171) with softened flex will fit the bill?

[Seraph]

Just a quick update from todays session. So after reading through the post and doing some additional research I made a couple of changes in my riding that when I altered them I noticed a dramatic improvement in my ability to adjust and tightening up my radius, although in some cases it still led to some skidding if I didn't get enough hip commitment at the start of the turn.

So what I found is at the start of the turn (at the top of the C), I did my crossover with my weight displacement driving downhill along with my hip driving downhill (same as before), but now in addition I am focusing on tipping the board higher on edge (by focusing on trying to show the boards base uphill) using the knees, shins, ankle). Its still a little awkward, especially on the steeper runs, and what I also noticed is that if I give it too much tilt and it is too tight for the speed i'm going, i start getting really bad heel chatter.

I do feel like i'm able to tighten up the turn radius, just needs some more practice. Don't feel like I'm at that comfort level yet to start torquing the board with my feet though. :-)

Found some action snapshots from todays session:

http://photos.sharpshooterimaging.com/PR3/SSOrderPage.aspx?pi=Y8771324000054&po=54

http://photos.sharpshooterimaging.com/PR3/SSOrderPage.aspx?pi=Y8771326000090&po=90

I'll buy them first before I post them.

[Rob Stevens]

Nice one, Seraph.

The chatter is probably a good sign. It likely means you're putting too much force through at the wrong time. Experimentation to the point of failure is great... Shows you where the limits are.

If you see independant movement of the feet and ankles in different planes, at different times, as movements for later that's about right.

You'll do them as more co-ordinated efforts, front and back, at first.

About the plate... The plate will not stop the rider from performing steering inputs, from binding to board. It is there to damp inputs from the snow and terrain, through the board to the bindings. It's like a rigid bike fork vs. a suspension fork... You still turn the bars to get around corners, but you stay on line better because you don't feel the roots and rocks as much.

[Helmut Karvlow]

Let me give you a Sword example. I watched a friend of mine get pummeled multiple time on Ruthies this year riding a Sword! Got him on a Prior and he was lovin life! The Atomic Death Pump on a Sword doesn't look like a good time. I don't understand Sword width and what exactly is the turn that you are trying to achieve?

Think Snow!

put down the "stanky bag" and shoot me an e-mail.....had some thing funny to say, but for your eyes only:nono:! and no way to e-mail you through Bomber Mr. Kress.

[QReuCk]

The chatter is probably a good sign. It likely means you're putting too much force through at the wrong time. Experimentation to the point of failure is great... Shows you where the limits are.

Can you elaborate on how "putting too much force through at the wrong time" leads to chatter?

I would really like to learn about that as I am myself a big fan of all sorts of experimentation in turns.

I currently believe that the turn radius, and even the fact you hold the edge or not is the result of a complexe equation between your speed, the pitch of the slope, pressure and angulation you apply under each foot. My guess is there is some range of torsion (=difference of angulation between the front foot and the back foot) that combined to different scenarios of weight distribution, pitch and moment of the turn where you can both hold the edge and change the turn radius. Although too much torsional input can result in having the front part of the board gripping and the back part sliding, which results in pivoting = loosing the carve or the back part being too much active, resulting in a wider carve or in chatter. I also suspect "correct" torsionnal input with too much pressure (high speed, high angulation) on a stiff board with a tight sidecut radius can also result in chattering and I attribute this to the edge never being engaged on its full length, letting the board resonate without the dampening effect a longer radius would have when the center of the board contacts the snow.

Anyway, this is based on pure speculation + some experimentations with boards that are not your typicall carving sticks, and stances many of you don't even consider ridable. So I would like to learn what alpine riders think about these machanics (if applyable, I think a narrow stance with steep forward angles give more importance to general board angulation and flex than torsional inputs). So what you think about this?

[carvedog]

Can you elaborate on how "putting too much force through at the wrong time" leads to chatter?

I would really like to learn about that as I am myself a big fan of all sorts of experimentation in turns.

I currently believe that the turn radius, and even the fact you hold the edge or not is the result of a complexe equation between your speed, the pitch of the slope, pressure and angulation you apply under each foot. My guess is there is some range of torsion.....

Chatter only happens when you get the board sideways too quickly with too much speed down the fall line. Too much speed and not enough turn shape=chatter.

Torsion - for me - mainly comes into play in the very early phases of the turn and in the middle of the turn ( 90 degrees to fall line) by the time the board comes back around towards the bottom of the turn torsion (al flex) can widen the carve or cause skidding but if the shape is right it won't cause chatter.

pivoting = loosing the carve or the back part being too much active, resulting in a wider carve or in chatter. I also suspect "correct" torsionnal input with too much pressure (high speed, high angulation) on a stiff board with a tight sidecut radius can also result in chattering and I attribute this to the edge never being engaged on its full length, letting the board resonate without the dampening effect a longer radius would have when the center of the board contacts the snow.

I believe you are right about the pivoty turns causing chatter. The edge being fully engaged but too sideways to your line of travel causes the chatter. A longer board doesn't really affect this if I am understanding you correctly. It's very much just a physics equation that is not affected by dampening or length of board.

Anyway, this is based on pure speculation + some experimentations with boards that are not your typicall carving sticks, and stances many of you don't even consider ridable. So I would like to learn what alpine riders think about these machanics (if applyable, I think a narrow stance with steep forward angles give more importance to general board angulation and flex than torsional inputs). So what you think about this?

To reference the first part of this. I ride all angles from almost 70 degrees on both on my Burners, to 45 on my frontier, tanker am type to about 30/20 on my canyon. I think everything is ridable so maybe you are referring to others comments.

I don't really understand the bit about narrow stance and steep forward angles.

[lowrider]

That second video is blocked by the IOC in Canada.:nono:

[LeeW]

Hmm, I dont know how to go about it with the "technicality" of riding (I just do it, pretty much).

I -do- know that sidecut does make a difference (well, to a degree/extent), and i've always stuck to Lib Tech Emma Peel for a good reason -- 800 sidecut radius which is real responsive to sharp turns, if needed. Long caawrve pencil-line can be done with it, too, just remember with lower sidecut radius measurement, it can get a bit "squirrely."

[Dave ESPI]

Snowman (mark) not sure if you have ever ridden a SWOARD, but it is a board that demands a vastly different input as to rotation and muscles than most "carve" boards on the market.

I rode two of them for about 10 runs in aspen, and they handed me my ass a few times when I gave bad input to them trying to ride them as I would other boards. When I emulated the movements as shown for how the board works (and adjusted my angles of stance) to the specs from the company (after a quick retreat to my hotel room for liquid courage and internet technique advice of mental refreshment) I went back out and rode it the way it was supposed to be, and it performed nicely.

Infact, I found they ride nicer than a few other MFR's boards on the some trails, but then conversely performed worse in other less agressive steeps.

It is purely a case for proper tool for the job.

In terms of this threads quandry, I'd say try fore/aft movement over the leading and trailing leg into and out of the turn. If you chest hits your front knee, you went too far for the speed U are traveling, (but have a really wicked up-hill slice though) adjust accordingly from that point.

[Seraph]

photo from my last carving session:

[BlueB]

I liked Swoard on steeps for EC, and on green runs for aggressive cross-unders. I didn't like it on the medium pitch or on the steeps for race-carve style.

It taht Dave is trying to say the same thing...

[Jack M]

Snowman (mark) not sure if you have ever ridden a SWOARD, but it is a board that demands a vastly different input as to rotation and muscles than most "carve" boards on the market.

I rode two of them for about 10 runs in aspen, and they handed me my ass a few times when I gave bad input to them trying to ride them as I would other boards. When I emulated the movements as shown for how the board works (and adjusted my angles of stance) to the specs from the company (after a quick retreat to my hotel room for liquid courage and internet technique advice of mental refreshment) I went back out and rode it the way it was supposed to be, and it performed nicely.

Infact, I found they ride nicer than a few other MFR's boards on the some trails, but then conversely performed worse in other less agressive steeps.

It is purely a case for proper tool for the job.

In terms of this threads quandry, I'd say try fore/aft movement over the leading and trailing leg into and out of the turn. If you chest hits your front knee, you went too far for the speed U are traveling, (but have a really wicked up-hill slice though) adjust accordingly from that point.

I really don't understand how you can make comments like these when you are not even carving the board?

[trailertrash]

Remember Dave, I saw you ride in Aspen and your talking skills far surpass your riding skills; that being said, I feel that your conclusions hold no water.

Ouch, sounds a lot like:

Oh and based on your level of riding you might want to be careful what you post about giving riders advice I have seen you ride....

Is there a three strikes rule?

[Buell]

I really don't understand how you can make comments like these when you are not even carving the board?

Wait, I thought you just had to ride hardboots to give advice here! Carving too?