My day at Keystone with Mountain Watch and Patrol

[zoltan]

Where is our promised update?!?

[Hans]

Fin is busy making Sidewinders

[fin]

Hans is correct, things got a tad busy with the launch of the SideWinder. So sorry for the delay on this guys. I was hoping to hear back from Keystone on this but so far no response.

Hope to have an update going soon.

[scrutton]

I was hoping to hear back from Keystone on this but so far no response.

That would make a fine part III to the story? Can we hear what happened in the meeting with them?

[Michael Pukas]

After talking about this w/ another friend who is in the ski industry and on several different mountains each week, my opinion is that 'Ol Len had every right to take notice of Fin, perceive him as a possible threat and give him a verbal warning, like "hey slow down, this is a sow zone, blah blah blah." It's their job to look out for potential threats to public safety, and are "trained" to use their judgment. Whether it was a skier, soft booter or alpine boarder skiing at that speed making those types of turns a threat to public safety could be perceived.

Where 'Ol Len crossed the line was giving chase to Fin and giving him a written warning. That is obviously him having personal unresolved issues, being on a power trip, and showing discrimination to wards snowboarders.

I agree w/ JG on many of his points, primarily that these guys are morons and have limited brain capacity, and therefore require playing Jedi Mind Tricks and/or reverse child psychology. There can only be a fight if both sides push; once one side stops pushing it turns into a dance, and these goons have two left feet. Most of these dopes are retirees w/ plenty time on their hands; they have gone through minimal training to get their spot next tot he yellow fence.

I've heard Fin make the argument several times that their is a minimum speed we can go; well, I disagree - Fin could have gone a lot slower, but he would have had to skid turns, and wouldn't be able to carve turns. Not the end of the world to avoid a conflict.

It's a lesson to all us - a little bending, as JG says, goes a long way. When you see the Yellow Jackets, slow down, and skid a turn a two - not to be a puss, but to show you acknowledge them - and then give them the finger as you go by. It's not worth getting your pass clipped just to say "I RIDE A CARVING BOARD, DAMN IT!!!".

[Guest]

I've heard Fin make the argument several times that their is a minimum speed we can go; well, I disagree - Fin could have gone a lot slower, but he would have had to skid turns, and wouldn't be able to carve turns. Not the end of the world to avoid a conflict.

I believe Fin was referring to the fact that if one didn't keep speed up at that particular section, he would have had to skate to their destination. In that case, yes it is crucial to keep a certain minimum speed, as we don't carry poles with us.

[tex1230]

I reiterate my previous statement. I would have been going twice that speed thru that section, and still wouldn't have been out of control. The straightlining skier on the right was a far bigger hazard.

still waiting patiently for part 2.....

[Michael Pukas]

Personally, I don't think Fin did anything wrong or was going too fast for the conditions and crowds. My opinion is that we have to be conscious of the unconsciousness of the yellow jackets and the possible consequences.

[BobD]

There is an unwritten philosophy that the British traffic cops go by. You can speed if it's safe, but if you get caught, you deserve to pay the fine. These guys are the driving equivalent of ninjas. When they drive, everything is taken into consideration, from observing crops in the fields (sowing/harvest may mean tractors/mud on the road ahead), to a crow flying up from the road that can't yet be seen ahead (indicating a vehicle disturbing a road kill feast). They think, if you didn't see the speed trap, your observation was not good enough to be speeding.

We pass slow signs all the time on the mountain, but we often just take extra care, and continue at a reasonable lick. If I see an official standing by a slow sign, I deliberately skid off a little speed, and make a show of it. Out of respect maybe, or maybe I just don't want to get my ticket clipped. What I'm really saying by doing that is, yes, I see you, and could stop if need be.

BobD

[dano]

I agree with Tex, go twice as fast, but then whip out the fabled Invisible Gilmore 360, cutting a deep trench around the yellowbelly, and then make your escape to freedom.

You would have to be carry all your speed through the 360 though, as the rent-a-relic would only be trapped until the next snow-plowing gaper or jibber falls into the trench thus forming a human bridge.

Next time.

[aactis]

I was at Keystone today with some friends who wanted to go there, and ironically... I didn't see a single person in the yellow jackets. Not at the slow signs. Not at the base. Nowhere. This is the first time that has ever happened, and I was rather surprised.

Best of luck in resolving this Fin, I hope it turns out well. :)

[Dave ESPI]

I hope FIN has the sidewinders @ SES since he can't provide Audio..... :p

Definately looking forward to demo-tenting them... and the Whistle that will come with them if U ride @ keystone :p:eplus2:

[zoltan]

That would make a fine part III to the story? Can we hear what happened in the meeting with them?

^^^ THIS.

[photodad2001]

Hans is correct, things got a tad busy with the launch of the SideWinder. So sorry for the delay on this guys. I was hoping to hear back from Keystone on this but so far no response.

Hope to have an update going soon.

You probably won't here anything. When companies like this are faced with one of their employees making a mistake their first line of defense is to bury their head in the sand. About 8 years ago I had an arrangement between myself and the local resort, Mad River Mountain. The agreement was that I would supply them with photographs of their events and candid on slope images for them to use on their web site and brochures and in return I would recieve unlimited access to tickets for myself and a guest at the main office. After a mega company bought out our little mom & pop resort and a new staff was put in place I found myself not only out of lift tickets, but also chased off the slope for taking photos (they claimed some sort of privacy law). Before leaving the office after a 20 minute shouting match with the new manager, I saw as big as life MY photo being used on the cover of THAT YEARS brochure. They had taken it out of the archives but I had only sent them a lowered resolution image and could prove that was my photo because I had the original on file on my home computer. I sent letter after letter and called multiple times only to be brushed aside each time. It wasn't until I had an attorney send them a letter that I got any result at all. They gave me a pass for the rest of the year but by then there was only a little more than a month left, but I knew I wasn't going to get more than that and couldn't afford to pursue it any further. Unfortunately they think they don't have to answer to peons like ourselves. If there are any attorneys on here that could send a letter of complaint that would get their attention.

[biggerwrangler]

While we're baashing Vail Resorts, Inc., has anyone heard that longtime environmental writer and Summit Daily News reporter, Bob Berwyn, was fired by the paper because he wrote an opinion piece about how VR was fudging their snow totals (which happened to be true at the time), and they threatened to pull out all of their advertisements. He refused to write a retraction statement to get his severence pay. How slimy is that of VR and SDN?

Or maybe that should be a new thread.

rofl I had mentions that to 9 news and they would say a thing about it..... see $ buys the world

[Jonny]

Aaaahh - fooey. The yellowjacket was way out of line.

Fin was doing what any good rider would have done since boards first got bindings, and what good skiers have done routinely as long as I've been skiing (50 years next year). He was boogieing down the extreme edge of the trail, in predictable rhythm, slightly faster than the traffic but no threat to anyone. On the contrary, he was an inspiration - any beginner on any kind of sliding device would have looked over and thought "how do I learn to do that?"

I remember that moment in my own life very well - about 9 years old and way out of my depth up on Castlerock at S-Bush, 1964 or so. Two instructors - one in the supervisor's jacket - came down the extreme left side, one after another, in a tight Wedeln, in the only really clean snow on the slope. That image stuck in my imagination, fueled, if I'm completely honest, by resentment as well as admiration until the time I could do it myself. BTW - the lead skiier turned out to have been Pepi Stiegler, and getting to free-ski with the guy some twenty years later (still couldn't keep up) is one of the highlights of my life on snow.

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

Any News?

[kinpa]

Fin???? This thread made it all the way to page 4..... time to get it back on page one!!! just wondering about Chapter 2 of this story..... you do have a way of creating suspense!!!!

[fin]

Dang, sorry everyone, things really picked up with the SW and getting ready for SES.

Will have a conclusion for everyone very soon and get this wrapped up.

[Guest]

Dang, sorry everyone, things really picked up with the SW and getting ready for SES.

Will have a conclusion for everyone very soon and get this wrapped up.

Seriously Fin, you need to get your priorities straight. (c:

[fin]

Part Deux:

So I made an appointment to meet with the head of Mountain Watch (MW) at Keystone to discuss what had occurred on the hill that week. Now let’s be honest here with my intent, sure I was going to ask, if after reviewing the video, that they would consider removing the written warning. However, I knew this would not happen. Think about how much luck you have when a cop gives you a ticket? No luck at all, it is your word against there’s and they will never admit making a bad call. Never.

So my “realistic” intents where:

1) Make them aware that they have a MW (Len) guy that is acting way out of the bounds of reasonable by straight up lying about what someone has done.(shown on video)

2) They have a patrol-man (Floppy) on the hill who openly tells customers they must be guilty based solely on the gear they are on (carving gear in my case)

3) Their method for gauging and enforcing speed issues on the hill is severally flawed and does not work

4) And the chef uses way too much salt in the clam chowder at the lower lodge

So armed with my video on a laptop I made my way over to Keystone with decent expectations. Was I ever wrong.

I was a little taken back to find there were four total people there from Keystone at the meeting. Seemed a bit excessive, but not a big deal. They were:

1) Celeste – Supervisor of MW

2) Jason – another Supervisor for MW

3) Chris Adis – Ski Patrol

4) Craig Simson – Head of Ski Patrol (MW is under the supervision of Ski Patrol)

When I met the first three (I’ll refer to as “The Three”) they were very nice and cordial. We chatted about a few people we new in common and how we needed more snow and basic small talk to warm things up. However, when I met Craig Simpson (I’ll now call “Angry Craig”) I knew right then I was screwed. You know when someone gives you that one quick one-pump hand shake, while they look in your eye with absolutely no expression? That person is saying they already don’t like you. And Angry Craig made it perfectly clear right then he did not want to be there, he did not want to hear what I had to say, and he certainly did not like the fact I was there to question his people.

I showed them the video from the day with Len. We watched it several times before anyone said anything. The Three on my right where silent when Angry Craig spoke up and said it was obvious from this video I was going way too fast and a danger on the hill. I told him I disagreed and that if you watch the video you will see me off to the side of the run, making some quick short carves to check my speed, and I roll through the “slow” zone going, well, slow. I showed him other skiers on the run that where going at the same speed as I and even doing an aerial onto the run (far side of video). I also pointed out the fact on that particular run a snowboarder has to keep a minimum amount of momentum in order to make it past the dips and flat spots. That Slow Zone happens to be at one of those flat spots and you can see this by some of the other snowboarders/skiers on the hill who have stopped and cannot move. I also mentioned I am fully aware that this hill is a beginner hill (even though it is the worst possible spot for one) and that I understand you need to safely work your way through it. Something I have done for the past 18 years at Keystone. Bottom line, these are the same turns on that same run I have made for years, so why did your guy Len decide to pull me over on this day?

It was at this point I made it clear that I believed Len pulled me over not because of speed but because he did not like my response I gave him as I went by (Part 1: “This is as slow as I can go”). And I showed this by playing them audio that has Len telling me I was “swerving in and out of people like pylons” which clearly I was not in the video. I also made a very interesting observation that why did Len not write up Chris who was taking the video at the time? He was right behind me in the video matching my speed 100%. Chris was even there the whole time on the hill while Len gave me the riot act. Len never once addressed Chris, not even a warning. Why? Because Len’s anger was focused on me and me only. I had disrespected him in his mind, and I was getting written up.

I also mentioned I take this seriously as I rely on this ski pass to run my business and do the engineering I need to do for my company. And when Keystone has a rouge MW guy calling his own shots based not from fact but his own personal agenda, yea, I have a problem.

So what was there response to all this? Not much of a response at all. The Three did say “they would have a talk with Len” and indirectly apologies for his behavior. Yea, I am sure they will have a very stern talk with him, but I thanked them for this anyway. But it was Angry Craig that would dominate the discuss with these 10 minutes rants about safety, and respect, think of the children, and “doing his job”. The weird thing was all his rants would end with the same phrase “and at the end of the day I have a mortgage to pay”. I have no idea how his personal mortgage has anything to do with this but he felt it necessary to voice this. Maybe he gets some type of kick-back from maintaining a certain quota of written warnings?

I then played them the video of the patroller (Floppy) riding up and joining in with his little nugget of knowledge that “I must be guilty based of the gear I am on”. You could tell Angry Craig was a bit stumped on how to respond to this. Here it was on tape, right in front of him. But he went to an old stand-by of:

Angry Craig: “well, I think this is just taken out of context and he (Floppy) was just trying to help in that situation”.

Fin: “so you not only agree with his statement but condone this type of statement to a paying customer of your mountain? And how could saying this possibly help in this situation?”

Angry Craig: “what I mean is………and the children……safety…..blah, blah…..and at the end of the day I have a mortgage to pay”.

Side bits of information I got from The Three by asking a few direct question I had written down:

• MW employees are not volunteers. They are paid.

• MW people are not trained in what a hardboot/carver is or even does. i.e. they are not familiar with how we ride.

• MW in training does not address simple concepts like “perception of speed”. In other words the concept that two people can be going at the same velocity but the one going ACROSS the hill can be perceived as going faster than the one coming straight at you. I am betting this has effected all of us at one point as far as being accused of “going too fast”.

I also took this opportunity to tell them their method for gauging speed is flawed and confusing to the public. Their current method for defining your speed on a run is (as quoted by Angry Craig) “Travel at the speed of the general traffic on that run”. So here are some the issues with that:

• Extreme room for interpretation and very subjective. The phrase even has the word “general” in it.

• By their definition there is someone ALWAYS speeding. There is no way everyone can be going the same speed on a single run. It just impossible to have this occur.

• By their definition, if I come up to a run and see everyone is stopped, I have to stop as well?

• By their definition if I come down a run that is 300 yards wide but there are two beginner skiers on the far right, even though I am on the far left I still have to travel at their average speed?

When you get a speeding ticket on the road there are two distinct factors that help me understand what I did wrong: there is a posted speed for that road, and the officer has a quantifiable method for measuring my speed (radar gun). Right now, Keystone has no posted speed other than the ambiguous “Slow” sign (or my favorite “Put on the Brakes!”) and they have no way to measure your speed other than something “observed” by someone who possibly might not have the skills to determine speed properly. Or in Len’s case that day, he was pissed his AARP benefit’s did not cover his latest hip replacement and his judgment was clouded.

Keystone’s current method for speed enforcement does nothing but cause confusion and resentment between itself and its customers. I believe the evidence of this is in the poll for this thread itself (results at top of page). Over 90% of the people who watched this video think I was going at a safe speed for those conditions. So at any given time 90%+ of the people on that run in that same situation think they are just fine but Keystone will write you up? Bottom line, we are not given the tools or reference points to make sure we fall under the mountains definition of “too fast”.

How many of you fellow carvers out there have seen a slow zone, registered it, shut it down and cut your speed, move over to one side away from the main group, rolled through the slow zone and STILL had these enforcers shout at you to slow down? Talking to others after this article, I am going to say most of us have had this happen at one point. Your first reaction is “I am going slow!” so why is there this disconnect between what we believe is correct and what they call correct? Because all we have is our own definition of slow as the mountain does not do a good job of tell us what it should be.

What is the answer? You got me. Other than everyone wearing GPS beacons that beep when you go to fast I have no idea. And also let me state that these MW guys do have an important job and they are needed on the hill to do an honest job of enforcing proper etiquette on the hill. However, in my case, I believe they went too far and they need to real this in and revaluate their policies.

So this went on for about an hour. It was odd, because it was like I was having two conversation at once, The Three (interestingly enough, collected on my right opposite of Angry Craig) where actually civil and open to a good discussion on this. We both spoke our opinions and even agreed on a few points. But the second conversation with Angry Craig was NOT going well. When I started punching holes in their definition of “going too fast” he became very combative. Compounded by the fact that during this entire meeting I never once admitted guilt was just putting him over the edge. And the tension from this was starting to negatively affect everyone in the room. So myself and The Three pretty much wrapped up the conversation and got up as a group as the meeting was over.

This is where it got weird.

Angry Craig apparently was NOT done with the conversation or meeting. As I started packing my bag Angry Craig stayed seated and kept addressing me in a very authoritative manner. He was saying “We are not done here, I need you to understand my position here”. I looked at him and said I believe the meeting is over and I am going to leave now. He then stood up and started to demand that I engage him in a conversation. I turned my back to pack my bag and he comes around in front of me and pulls a chair out and insists that I sit down and listen to him. At this point I started to get a little worried as I had a VERY upset patrolman chasing me around the table. I looked up and saw that the two MW supervisors had scattered away like mice to their attached offices and the remaining patrolman (Chris) was standing by the door with his head down. All I could think of was I gotta get the hell out of here and not antagonize this hot-head anymore. So as he kept demanding I listen to him I would just respond with “Have a great New Years” as I started just stuffing my stuff in my bag as fast as I could. I finally started to make it over to the door when Patrolman Chris stepped in front of me and in a very low whisper voice starts telling me “just tell him you understand and you’ll be more careful on the hill and blah blah blah”. I looked at him and told him I would do no such thing and I just wanted to get out of this loony-bin. I stepped around him and walked out the door. I remember as I stepped outside the building I had this feeling like I had just avoided being mugged. Strangest meeting with professionals I have ever had.

Honestly, that incident prompted me to start this entire thread and poll. I was prepared to just chat with them and be done with it. But when a room of so called professionals acts this way, I feel obligated to tell the story. I did write a letter to the head of Keystone Operations, Jeff Hill, but to date (and several attempts) have not received a response. I guess I never really expected one but at least they are aware of their employee’s behavior. I have also made a half dozen written requests for a copy of my “written warning” as I am not even sure of what offense I am guilty of from their list of offenses? No response on that as well.

In conclusion I am not going to be “that guy” who no starts shouting “don’t go to Keystone, Waaaaa!”. Keystone is a great mountain with excellent opportunities for some good carving. But we are all adults here and you can make your own decisions. Do you feel comfortable going to a mountain that:

• Has an MW employee who lies and writes you up for their own personal reasons?

• Ski Patrollers on the hill who are convinced (and vocal) you must be guilty because you are on a carving board?

• Head of Ski Patrol who seems to be a ticking time bomb?

• Head of Operations, Jeff Hill, would rather stick his head in the sand rather than recognize the issues with their own employees and policies?

Your choice, I’ve made mine.

[fin]

Hey everyone, great news! Len personally sent me a very nice e-mail the other day saying he would love to register on the forum and participate in this very informative discussion. He would have been on earlier but he has to have his great-grand son do the computer work for him as he is still a bit unfamiliar with this, as he put it, “crazy inter-web nonsense”.

Interestingly enough, from his e-mail, I have learned a few telling facts about Len. He is ex-military, but he did not specify if he served on the North or South army. Len was also a university professor. For the record, these are both very noble careers and I certain appreciate anyone who serves in the armed forces. Hmmm, two careers that both demand respect and are positions of authority. Naw, has to be a coincidence.

Anyway, let’s give Len (user: len bawol) a big warm welcome.

[Neil Gendzwill]

So, do you think Len will be interested in a civil discussion after the assorted pot shots you've taken at him regarding his age?

[scrutton]

That is freaky.

"How many of you fellow carvers out there have seen a slow zone, registered it, shut it down and cut your speed, move over to one side away from the main group, rolled through the slow zone and STILL had these enforcers shout at you to slow down?"

Never. I've been pulled once for speeding/disrespect. I cut through a line of newbies on a lesson (hey there was plenty of space, and the whole line of newb's was taking up most of the width of the slope). The whistle blows, the ski-patrol guy has a chat and marked my ticket (day pass).

I've been high-fived by the lifty before - guess he hadn't seen many hard-booters before.

[bumpyride]

To welcome Len to Bomberonline. It would be good to have a countermanding voice to this Forum. As far as the age joke go, don't trust anyone over the age of 38 or under the age of 37. (I would be 60 so don't trust anything that I say)

I think it would be most productive if Len was to be given the opportunity to have his picture transposed onto the film that was taken of Fin during his flaunting of authority. This way he could better judge if there was an infraction unclouded by means of locomotion, such as this.

http://sendables.jibjab.com/view/4876ZeUzRSVi633b