My day at Keystone with Mountain Watch and Patrol

[jonbass]

I don't think you were riding unreasonably at all.

That being said, I think I can understand why ski patrollers and speed patrollers would be grumpy. I'm not saying that this justified the behaviour of this particular patroller.

I was at Alyeska, which is a fairly big resort in Alaska last week. It has been a while since I have been at a bigger resort. The last bigger resort was Sunshine in Banff almost 10 years ago. By the end of my days at Alyeska, I was so frustrated by the behaviour of people on the hill that I called it quits early.

Some of the things I saw;

-out of control straightliners (Snowboarders and skiers) nailing people on the hill

-skiers and snowboarders speeding into liftlines cutting people off

-skiers skiing right into liftlines out of control and taking out multiple people (twice in 15 min).

-people talking/texting on cell phones while sliding down the hill

-people talking/texting on cell phones stopped right on the lift off ramp causing people to fall to avoid them - lifties right there and not doing anything.

-a snowboarder pushing kids out of the way to get past them in lines.

-people riding too close to other people/cutting them off.

- a snowboarder even smacked my friend on the back of the head as they passed her. She tried to chase them down but couldn't catch them.

There were hardly any patrollers on the hill and I never saw them dealing with these issues. The lifties didn't even deal with things that they clearly saw.

I think there is a big problem with the way ski hills are being managed. If i was a ski patroller, I would probably react in one of two ways. I would go insane trying get people to show some respect to others or I would just give up and ignore everything.

I kind of think that the old guy reacted in the first way. His reaction was also tempered with an ingrained bias against snowboarders which is unfortunately not uncommon. He saw a snowboarder that was passing others on the hill, his building frustration came to a boil and he took it out on Fin. I think it was a result of the common rude behaviour on ski hill getting to someone and, in turn, they took it out on an innocent bystander.

These things won't be fixed until they truly teach and enforce etiquette on the hill.

Wow! That was a soapbox rant! :D I guess it was building up!

[jike9830]

You have been abused.

The intent of a ski resort is to provide a playground for all to have fun, and in that means there has to be tolerance. This just takes the fun out it.

[Hans]

The reason why FIN got busted, is just simple: Ferrari Red Deeluxe boots and Ferrari Red padded Sidewinders. You simply can't go slow with these things. Ever seen a Ferrari go slow?

Next Youtube movie: Skipatroller to FIN.

Skipatroller to FIN:

- are you wearing FERRARI Red hardboots on a Ferrari Red TD3 SW set up?

FIN:

- Yes, why?

Skipatroller:

- I even didn't saw you coming, that fast, you can't go slow on those things

FIN:

- yes you can, I was slowing down, here you even can see it at youtube!

Skipatroller:

- No you weren't. You can't go slow on this set up.

FIN:

- Yes I can, I even have suspension in my TD3 Sidewinders to slow down.

Skipatroller:

- no you can't slow down, case closed, here is your speedingticket,

, and don't you dare to come here again on those boots,

ever! Period! If I ever see you here again on this FERRARI red setup, I will

take your seasonpass. Have a good day, Sir

[live_love_ride]

I would go insane trying get people to show some respect to others

I believe this sums up quite a bit.

Not to thread jack but on New Years Eve, went to see Avatar in 3D - a visual masterpiece beyond words!

The woman next to me proceeded to "text" for about 1 1/2 hours of the movie. I finally told her to knock it the hell off cuz it was distracting and she was NOT supposed to be doing it anyway. This was not some 20-something kid either - easily in her late 30's early 40's - AND her husband was texting too!. Now of course she had her God given right to text. I told her TO TAKE OUT TO THE LOBBY!! Was going to get the manager but she finally stopped. After the flick she proceeded to walk by me and give me a snotty-ass remark about texting like I was the one doing something wrong.

Anywho - bummer that this happened Fin.

llr

[Seraph]

I thought you all would appreciate this Page 2 article in our local paper (the Summit Daily) today....

Happy Reading!

Here's a link to the E-edition article so you can actually read it (scroll to page A2-A3). Let the letters to the Editor begin!

http://summitdailynews.co.newsmemory.com/

I think a followup article between the writer and Fin would make for excellent journalism.

[biggerwrangler]

I thought you all would appreciate this Page 2 article in our local paper (the Summit Daily) today....

Happy Reading!

Here's a link to the E-edition article so you can actually read it (scroll to page A2-A3). Let the letters to the Editor begin!

http://summitdailynews.co.newsmemory.com/

umm excuse me while I

[John E]

Fin - I suppose you could threaten to orgainze a carver boycott of all Vail properties but since we are such a small percentage of their customers, they may not care.

It is too bad that they give so much discretion to these mall cops. If they were to use radar guns & make objective speed measurments, it would be easier to justify.

If they are going to make a subjective call, it should be about control - not speed. I have no doubt that you were in control. You would be the last person to cast a bad light on the carving community.

Just over the pass at Loveland, I suspect that carvers make up a much larger percentage of slope users (though still very small). I think that most ski patrols there are aware of us and I don't know of any conflicts.

[powdahbonz]

After a busy Saturday, holiday weekend outing at Sunday River, I was reminded why I prefer weekdays and wide open runs. Control, ability, reaction time, skill, IMO, can be more important than speed. In a mixing bowl like that run, anything can happen but from that footage, it looked like Fin could control any situation with ability and skill and had time to react to anything so speed is/was not a factor. If you're standing still, what doesn't look fast? Is the yellow jackets purpose really to be a mountain ambassador or just a speed trap and levy a sting? Hindsight, had Fin just stopped and said nothing and been befuddled with "why are you stopping me" it may have been different. It's great that the video evidence is there to support you.

[Cindy Kleh]

While we're baashing Vail Resorts, Inc., has anyone heard that longtime environmental writer and Summit Daily News reporter, Bob Berwyn, was fired by the paper because he wrote an opinion piece about how VR was fudging their snow totals (which happened to be true at the time), and they threatened to pull out all of their advertisements. He refused to write a retraction statement to get his severence pay. How slimy is that of VR and SDN?

Or maybe that should be a new thread.

[Kex]

Do you know how fast you were going?

uhh, 65?

63.

But officer, isn't the speed limit 65?

It is.

[OhD]

IMHO you should have been riding quite a bit slower than it appears you were. This is a beginner slope - it is populated by people who are likely to do unpredictable things. Even if you were under control, it's not a certainty that you could have avoided the guy in a red jacket if he'd decided on impulse to hook it up the hill and stop at the side of the run (I can't tell for sure, but it looks as though he saw you guys coming and checked up), or the girl in the white pants and blue jacket if she'd started downhill and left.

Using a lane at the side of the run is a good plan if there's an escape over the side - if not you must cut the world a little more slack. If everyone would pick a lane (especially on narrow cat-tracks) and stick to it there'd be a lot fewer incidents, but carving wouldn't be nearly as much fun. THe aggravating thing is that some people know to stop or go slow along the edges but others don't, so on beginner runs you can't count on an edge lane being clear for very far. It's probably the best bet for passing, though, since the traffic is heaviest in the center and anyone out on the edges MIGHT have a clue about looking uphill before starting out again. At least you guys were being pretty consistent and predictable.

The rule about the general speed of folks on the run makes sense. Significantly different speeds increase the probability of injury if a collision occurs. Even if the downhill person does something completely asinine (except for entering a trail without looking, or stopping where not visible from above), if you hit them from above you are at fault.

It may be that all the speeds in the clip are exaggerated by the lens length, BUT there are only three people going your speed - everyone else is stopped or going much slower. Most of them probably couldn't have made an unpredictable move fast enough that you couldn't have avoided them, even if you had been distracted a bit. Most but not all.

Had you thrown a hockey stop within conversational range of the yellowjacket, he may have realized that you were well within your envelope of control and let it slide. Your riding looked fine - nothing untoward happened in the clip - but you were going a lot faster than traffic (and the cameraman was keeping up and probably not as attentive to traffic as you were). If not for the fact that you were on a beginner slope there would have been no basis for his beef. Under the circumstances, however, his judgement is going to be biased toward keeping the beginners safe and the resort out of trouble. From the perspective of the yellowjacket and the resort, you being pissed (or even having to skate a bit) is not trouble.

I've seen a lot worse. You guys weren't grossly out of line. He's probably heard a lot of horror stories about reckless snowboarders. Some of them are true. Watch your back.

[leeho730]

I do not believe fin's actions could have put the resort in trouble. Should fin injure someone, the person would go after fin, not the resort. And from the sound of it, the yellowjacket in the story was patronizing fin. Respect gets respect. What would a paying customer do if a waitress patronize him/her in a restaurant?

I've also experienced how reckless some skiers could be.

Last year, when I was turning, a skier came downhill on a straight line, telling me to get out of her way. I was below her so I had the right of way. It happened on an intermediate slope and I was in no way going slow. Even if I were to go slow she had absolutely no right to say what she said.

A skier also hit be from behind when I was turning, causing me to trip over. What he/she did? He/she just cruised as if nothing happened.

And I don't want to start about how many times skiers ran over my board... there's already another thread about it, I believe.

A friend of me also had a terrible accident. She was skiing in Whistler BC when a skier hit her from behind. His ski tip collided with the helmet, causing her to lose consciousness for about a minute. The impact was so severe that the helmet was nearly cleaved in half. What did he do? Not a word, just shrugged his shoulder and as soon as he realized that she regained consciousness back he just went on his way.

I believe the truth is that there are some reckless skiers as much as there are some reckless snowboarders. However, we snowboarders do not tend to complain about those skiers as much as skiers do about those snowboarders...

[jburrill]

Fin, this has occurred with me and my friends so many times. You were of course going in control and not too fast. Problem was, you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The skier in white went undetected. You were too close to the monitors. They definately profile snowboarders. You just happened to be near them at the time and caught their attention. Technically you were going faster than the flow of other people on the trail. But not too fast in general. The only way you could have passed without being hassled would have been to show a coutesy speed check for them. Remember. They are ignorant and scared of snowboarders, especially ones that look fast standing still.

I have routinely seen this happen. Ill be out with other skiers and on my plates. We pass through a slow zone sometimes slow and sometimes at mach speeds. Im the one to get flagged down and hassled. Never the skiers that Im with. Its happened over and over. Consistantly Ive been profiled by patrol, even assaulted. I would formally complain If I were you. Good Luck. Its best just to avoid slow zones. We should do an experiment to prove this profiling issue. 2 skiers, 2 riders one slow zone. Lets see how the numbers turn out. I

[Mr. T]

We all know what happens when Fin feels threatened. . . . . .

Never mess with an Irishman when speed is on the line.

BTW: Patroler Simsons' heros include Superman and Harkin Banks, he just gives me warm fuzzys!!! Thanks Angie!!!!

[bjvircks]

Run for cover! Fin's got his shirt off!

[John Gilmour]

Back in the Early 1980's I would go to Colorado to snowboard.

As the first sales rep for Winterstick and Sims on the east coast.. well... let's just say the boards back then were not "carving machines". I had no idea what carving was. I just knew...softboots (my LL Bean Boots) sucked for snowboarding.

Those early snowboards definitely did not work well on the icy slopes of the East Coast. So I would fly out to Colorado on a discount airline called People's Express -- I used to monitor their booking via the telephone, and determine which flights would be oversold, and then gather about 5 to 7 round-trip tickets in a single day. That would enable me to fly to Colorado cheaply -- I think the cost was $79 for hte first r/t fight and the other ones were free.

Because of this, I was able to use my money to buy helicopter skiing. The outfit I chose to use was Colorado Heli-ski. The first time I went up with them they offered me no refund if my snowboard would not work in the deep powder...I was their first snowboarder... ever..

At that time, high backs did not exist, and I had already gone to a Randonee hard boot -- Koflach Vallugas.

I rode loveland pass- hiking up with pick up trucks...and also went with colorado heli-ski. And I would see this perfect snow at keystone.. so fluffy.. (back when there were no snowboarders scraping it down, and only straight shooters on straight skis).

So for the bonus last run of the day- the guys landed the helicopter off at the top of keystone lift and let me ride down with all the skiers... we'd sometimes even sneak in a double run.

Skiers thought it was cool, some followed me...and I was finally on snow where I felt I could do no wrong....and go really fast.

There were ZERO yellow jackets....back then..

People followed me into the bar and had endless questions. "How does it turn?, Can you stop? , Do your feet release if you fall? How come you don't break both legs when you fall?, Have you ever fallen?"

There is a very different attitude now. Back then.. as snowboarders we were in fear of even losing a single resort to bad behavior. (Which could mean having to travel to a different state to ride). We were on our best behavior.

I have always ridden pretty fast...in every board sport.

And... had to deal with cops/ ski patrol etc.. (I nearly get arrested EVERY TIME I set a skateboard slalom course in Aspen (the important word is "nearly" because in 35 years of slalom..I have never been arrested...slalom practice is over..when the men in blue show up with the lights flashing).

SOOOOO....

A token "Skid" just in front of the sign , means you acknowledge the rule, are willing to bend to be in accordance with the rule... but most importantly, it means you have already complied with the minimal amount of compliance required. By doing a token skid- even if it only dumps 3mph... -- you have removed the right for the yellow jacket to yell at you.

When I moved to live in Colorado permanently, I remember being chased years prior by the ski patrol at Aspen Highlands. In order to avoid them I reversed my jacket -- and the ski patrol guy was determined to bust me -- it's a pretty funny story -- but what I remember from it was that being chased by ski patrol is an extremely unpleasant thing....even if I got away.

So upon moving here, I selected an all-black ski outfit to be completely nondescript and hard to identify. That way it would make it much harder for ski patrol to identify who I was if they were not happy with the speed I was going....complaints would be hard to log... etc.

Well, this is my third season here.Because I always show a little respect to ski patrol with even the smallest of token skids they have never yelled at me. Not once...ever....

Also, I try to make it possible -- that when entering a slow zone -- that there is no skier or snowboarder within 50 feet of me.

no body within 50 ft. = Nobody nearby... no collision possible.

Now, when there is not a slow sign, and I am around a lot a beginner skiers, I actually try to maintain a slightly higher rate of speed than those around me -- mostly so if they tried to invade my bubble of safety -- I can retreat away from them faster than they can invade my space.

So far, this has worked pretty well, I have had no collisions in Colorado.

What I do find remarkable, is that when the ski patrol gets to know you, and knows that you were willing to obey their judgment -- even if it is just a token gesture, they will leave you alone.

That includes going down a near empty intermediate run at 50 miles an hour fully laid over on the snow. So what the ski patrol have to say about that? "Those turns are faaaaaantastic!". (Said with an Austrian accent).

This year, I have completely ditched my black clothing, and I've gone for something much more colorful and identifiable. I no longer see ski patrol as the enemy.

In fact, if not for ski patrol, I might have hemorrhaged when I flew off trail riding a tele-board and hit 3 trees.

So, next time if a yellow jacket singles you out -- you might smile and say, "Oh Hi! I don't think we've met I'm Fin, I also work in the ski sport industry (Hmm ski patroller thinks he might score a pair of goggles or a jacket- and you are not the public but a ski insider) , I've spoken with a lot of the other yellow jacket patrollers over the years and they ALL know me very well, and they know I always "SKI" (NEVER!!!NEVER use the word "snowboard" always say "SKI" -I no longer ski but if you say "Ski" they will react very differently as they will think you ALSO SKI) in control and prudently -- this might be the first time you have noticed me, but I am here several times a week for the past 25 years and have never caused an accident. I greatly appreciate your concern which shows you are paying extremely close attention (bogus "well done" compliment for his crap job) and I'll make sure to moderate my speed to always prevent any possible accidents. Keep up the good work." Smile...and wait....

These yellow jacket guys expect confrontation....

When you don't give it to them...and instead make them feel like they are unobservant for never seeing you before....ie 25 years....(or you have been on this mountain longer than them) and that the other Yellow Jackets have deemed you a safe guy, "non threat" (....nothing makes them more nervous than to be out of line with the other yellow jackets...They LIVE to BE just carbon clones of each other- for a meager scrap of personal identity) ...well... they ALWAYS just say "Ok just be careful now, you have a nice day". They know any lecture would be wasted on you as you have heard it all before... and might even be best buds with their Yellow Jacket supervisor or the head of the mountain.

But ignore them, defy them... SCREW IT...not worth the effort! ( a waste of time) , just "bend" their age/alcohol enfeebled minds, make them think that they are the ones "out of compliance with the other yellow jackets"... not that you are the one out of compliance with the speed of beginner skiers.

The moral of the story.....

Aspen rules.

+ our ski patrol is wayyyyyy coooler,

smarter,

and better skiers

(subtle "bending here again")

than Keystones.

PS. On the bright side Fin.... I dig you are giving them hell for profiling snowboarders-and you got the footage to show they make up all sorts of BS to support their poor judgement call-

(that skier is certainly going the same speed as you and certainly the chance that that particular random skier can maneuver and stop quicker and more accurately than you is slim to none...they called out the wrong guy.

.. Maybe its the fighting Irish in you... me... ehhhhh...... I'd rather keep turning ....having fun and watch them slowly freeze standing around for $8.50hr as I do run after run.

[jp1]

OK fin, it's Tuesday, where's "Part 2" :lol:.. Although (from reading Mark & Michelle's posts) I'm pretty sure, "I don't really want to know", as it'll just get me more wound up

I sent an email to VR, which I'm sure promptly went to 'File 13', and I will NEVER get a response. But they got the message and will NEVER get a penny out of me (not that it bothers them).

[bigdyno]

Yes it is.

[Jon Dahl]

After watching the clip, I have to say that Fin was never close enough to anyone else to be even remotely considered a "safety issue." Speed was mellow enough, and far away enough, to be able to be dumped if needed without issue. Speed is relative, though, what I consider mellow may no be thought so by the geriatric set...and Fin is definately riding faster than the pylons who can hardly stand up. I say call 'em on it and make them apologize, and rescind the ticket. Remind them how many people you, directly, have been responsible for bringing to Keystone (SES '04 for example) $$$ talk!!

[Cyrus the virus]

For me there is one fact!

I DON`T ride at Keystone!

[Gecko]

wow after reading Gilmour's post (informative)I had to make sure my watch was above the compost line.....

[Dave ESPI]

FIn, Its TUESDAY.....

feed us salivating dogs some audio !

[Michelle]

Michelle you are such a big TEASE!!

Oh, I've been called a LOT worse :)

I think a followup article between the writer and Fin would make for excellent journalism.

I think that would be fantastic! Anyone want to write to the reporter and suggest it? Of course they probably won't becuase of VR monopoly and Control over everything in Summit County, including as Cindy said SDN. :(

[John Gilmour]

wow after reading Gilmour's post (informative)I had to make sure my watch was above the compost line.....

Yeah sometimes, giving the authoritarian praise instead of a fight- works. They eat dougnuts as well as BS.

Why am I posting instead of riding??? I have the flu.

The mind of the authoritarian... has a few modes. The ones that validates them and have high significant mental reward to them (history of low rank self esteem) are..

1. Apprehend mode

2. Shouting you down

3. Proving that they are right (unable to argue with them they enforce the law)

4. "Shut up and listen to me.. Boy!"mode.

5. Physical conflict

Typically, sadly - they are not very bright (unless a learning disability causes low scores). For instance Police officers in the USA have a Maximum score that they are not allowed to score above on Aptitude tests... or they do not get the job. Thankfully we do not have this limitation for air traffic controllers -AFAIK.

So you can shift them from these negative modes... by engaging another "Primary directive" of theirs in their training.

6. Being "in Step". A clone (the perfect soldier .."In Step" and not behind a step with the rest of their platoon- yes they have been explained what is the "threshold to apprehend")

7. "Help Mode"

So by suggesting that the Yellow jacket is doing a good job but is just could be mildly out of step with the levels of enforcement with the others.. can get him to have internal doubt and let you go. (This is similar to how they are trained - told they are doing good, but this is what the threshold others enforce is...by doing this "subtly" his brain makes him think you are similar to a benevolent training officer- and he is used to obeying a training officer).

"Help Mode" can be added at this point... to change his directive... so Fin could have said... "You are right... this trail is crowded for so many people at varying speeds and I wouldn't want to add to this mess- instead I'd like to take YOUR initiative (HA HA "Your initiative"..as if yellow jackets initiate anything but anger...lol- but say it anyhow so he thinks it is his idea and has to further develop it or add a tidbit to it to actually make him believe he can claim it as his idea) and be a part of the solution- I'd rather go where there are fewer people and I won't bother anyone... can you suggest a freshly groomed trail with few people on it that is nearby"?

Since the authoritarian can not multi task effectively he drops out of apprehend mode and goes into thinking about where you could go... into "Help Mode" and at the same time his mind shifts from "conflict" into pleasing visual imagery and geography and also trying to remember the grooming list (wondering why his brain isn't so sharp anymore and he can not remember).. he also thinks he has found a unique solution.... one he can share with other bewildered Yellow Jackets to get him a pat on the back from a superior and perhaps move up some day to pack leader. His Pabst Blue ribbon brain is awash with possibilities...none of which include taking away your pass.

And yes... it works for speeding tickets in cars as well. True story with Bill Tway.

I was going skateboard slaloming in the Arnold Arboretum... I needed to cross 4 lanes of traffic to turn into a parking area.. it is rush hour. (I have already taken down my Valentine 1 and hidden it so it won't be a temptation for break in)

The light changes.. I floor it.... 322hp gets the benz up to 55 Mph (I'm in a 35 zone) I now have about 12 car lengths between me and the next closest car. I signal to turn knowing there is no oncoming traffic either from the opposing lanes of traffic.

Whoooo! A cop is behind me.

I explain to the cop that it is rush hour..I don't want to block a lane of traffic while signaling to turn and possible cause a accident while others are waiting as you can not see over the hills- and the low sunlight angle at this time makes this very dangerous. I explain I know that this place has a high accident rate and it is a great thing that he is here. I tell him I come here every day during this this month each year. I explain that he is correct in pulling me over as other LE (they love that term) have done the same thing but have also let me go after I explain this.. and that they told me that it is a good idea and they will remember me and not bother me again. I also say I understand this is your district- and if you would prefer that I not go with what the other LE want and want me to do it your way I will comply.

No conflict, no resistance, compliance with safety concerns...

Check , check check..

no ticket.

I have the lowest driving surcharge step attainable.

[tahoetrencher]

sure it's not the Head-Flu?

Guess you flunked out of the LE acadamy after your aptitude test.

Now I need to rest.