Why you back off, if the run gets crowded

[queequeg]

I think the biggest problem out there in terms of safety is that many people cannot distinguish between what it means to be in control and what is required to remain upright. I would define being in control as:

1. being aware of your surroundings: the people downhill from you, the terrain, and the snow conditions.

2. honestly assessing your capabilities, and their adequacy for managing your current situation.

3. Being able to stop, or change direction (dramatically or subtly) in any situation.

4. Looking where you are going.

If I you get hit from behind, the person who hit you either:

1. not looking where they were going (which I would consider out of control).

2. was out of control and unable to perform compensation maneuvers or stop.

3. hit you on purpose.

Unless of course you are standing someplace where you can't be seen from uphill ... in which case it's your fault.

If somebody hits me from behind, I usually ask them which of these three was the case.

Personally, I haven't always been the best at all of these things, but that's what I strive for. Part of the problem is everyone is learning, and you've gotta push yourself to learn. And when you're pushing yourself, you focus so much on technique that you forget to take in your surroundings. But yeah, you occasionally get those people who have just no regard for anyone's well being, and it pisses me off to no end that ski patrol doesn't do **** about these guys.

When it gets really crowded, I look for a slow lift with no uphill traffic coming down on it. Reduced uphill capacity == less crowded.

[jburrill]

Toe side look up.

Heelside rip it up.

Toe side look up.

Heelside rip it up.

Ect ect ect.

They always come out of nowhere.

Pull over and let the wave of terminal intermediates go by.

Repeat.

Enjoy.

[Phil]

Toe side look up.

Heelside rip it up.

Toe side look up.

Heelside rip it up.

Ect ect ect.

How about:

Toeside look where you are going and throw a glance uphill

Heelside look where you are going and throw a glance uphill

Toeside look where you are going and throw a glance uphill

Heelside look where you are going and throw a glance uphill

Etc., etc., etc...

I don't like the notion that we have a blindspot as snowboarders. Skiers AND snowboarders tend to have a "downhill fixation". I was in a ski clinic one time where the (non-PSIA ;)) clinician had us doing medium to large radius turns. He said that we should be looking downhill - even when we are going across the slope. I can see on a closed race course where you are looking gates ahead, but on a crowded slope, this is nonsense. Snowboarders tend to be worse on their heelside. I have seen both Ski and SB's just looking down the hill all the way down regardless of the size turn they are making or whether they are going across the whole slope. The truth is, wherever you are going, you should be looking that direction or a little ahead of your turn. When you are a carver, that means that you will be looking across the hill if that is where you are going. The heelside is NO exception. If your riding style has your shoulders aligned with the long axis of the board (softboots) you should learn to turn your head over your lead shoulder.

I think it is great how we all jumped on the blame wagon for this clip and then they turned out to be best friends. :lol: I wonder if they are still best friends?? :)

[queequeg]

one of the problems is that while the rules make clear that those downhill have right of way they also say that those traversing must give way. In every incident I have been involved with this year the other party has claimed I was traversing. When I am carving i am often changing edges across the fall line, particularly when trying to control speed. No matter how many times I have pointed out to the moron involved that as they were not in sight uphill when i started downhill then they must have been overtaking me they have refused to accept they were in the wrong. Its one thing being hit by an idiot, but when said idiot then claims its your fault the red mist comes down. I have in the past made mistakes and hit people on the skifield, though not for some years. In all cases I have been horrified and apologised profusely. I understand that it is not a perfect world and sometimes things do not go to plan. This attitude of messing up and then not accepting responsibilty i do not understand at all. The last offender this year abused me so much that i had a total loss of temper.

http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/safety/heads_up/know_the_code.asp

Maybe things are different in New Zealand but as far as I know, the code says nothing about traversing ... it DOES mention merging: if you're merging into a trail you do not have the right of way, even if you are downhill. You have to wait for a safe time to merge in. I think the idea behind that is that there is no way for uphill skiers to compensate for people who fly out into the middle of the trail from a cat-track, without first looking uphill or speed checking. So in other words, if you are stopped on a trail you do not have the right of way, and if you are merging into a trail you do not have the right of way - you must yeild to uphill traffic in those situations.

[nigelc]

you are right - there is no mention of traversing in nz now either. There used to be and i dont know when it changed. So even less reason for such appalling behaviour.

[Neil Gendzwill]

if you are stopped on a trail you do not have the right of way, and if you are merging into a trail you do not have the right of way - you must yeild to uphill traffic in those situations.

Only in the second case, where it clearly states you must yield. If you are stopped on the trail where you are an obstruction you have violated the rules but the uphill skier must still yield. Even in the case where you are not visible above, the uphill skier must yield. In my mind this is because there is no difference to the uphill skier whether you are stopped intentionally, or recovering from a crash, or maybe just very slow. In all those cases the uphill skier must be able to avoid the obstacle.

[carver]

This has become an interesting thread. Now lets look at us? Yes the Carver. We traverse the runs at speed at times. I was a hard core skier till 92, Alpine in 98? In skiing traversing is a major no no. For beginners only and if they take lessons they are taught not to do it. That's where the danger for us comes into play. If we are on a hill with good skiers, Sun Valley for instance. Great skiers and their at speed on many runs. We traverse, this is where we meet. Skier on fall line we come across the hill and bang!. For some reason the skier always wants to go in front of us while we are leaving major ground behind. Go figure. I always try to go first and look up before engaging. Last is also good. Hope no one comes out of nowhere? My 2 cents. Tim

[queequeg]

Only in the second case, where it clearly states you must yield. If you are stopped on the trail where you are an obstruction you have violated the rules but the uphill skier must still yield. Even in the case where you are not visible above, the uphill skier must yield. In my mind this is because there is no difference to the uphill skier whether you are stopped intentionally, or recovering from a crash, or maybe just very slow. In all those cases the uphill skier must be able to avoid the obstacle.

"Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others" is what the rule says - there are no other conditions attached to it. The uphill skier has the responsibility not to hit you, and you have the responsibility to yield to traffic that is already in motion. The uphill skier has no responsibility yield if you are stopped- which is different than having to avoid you while you are still stopped. The uphill skier can have the right of way and still be expected to not hit the downhill person, it just means that the stopped person is in the wrong if they unexpectedly step into the the path of the (moving) uphill person. It's just trying to protect the uphill skier from unpredictable circumstances created by careless people: people flying out into the middle of a trail from a cat-track where they were previously not visible, and stopped skiers suddenly and unexpectedly moving into your path while you are trying to pass.

Whenever you are stopped you are always an obstruction, unless you actually step off the trail entirely (pretty much nobody does this), but yeah, you should always stop on the side unless you are helping someone out who has fallen and hurt him/herself. I think the rule should state that stopped skiers must always face uphill.

I also think this rule calls out stopped skiers because an impact between two people moving 50 and 35 is quite a bit smaller than than the impact between a stationary person and someone moving 25.

[b0ardski]

Now lets look at us? Yes the Carver. We traverse the runs at speed at times. If we are on a hill with good skiers, Sun Valley for instance. Great skiers and their at speed on many runs. We traverse, this is where we meet. Skier on fall line we come across the hill and bang!. For some reason the skier always wants to go in front of us while we are leaving major ground behind. Go figure. I always try to go first and look up before engaging. Last is also good. Hope no one comes out of nowhere? My 2 cents. Tim

This is something that's given me a couple close calls with high speed skiers. Bought my 1st helmet this year, & I,m considering armor.

One case in particular, I was making big cross slope carves, even & predictable, looked uphill when I came onto the toeside, no-one in sight, by the time I started to transition to heelside a black blur scared the schite outta me passing between the tip of my board & the trees at the edge of the run.

I'm sure he felt he was forced off the side but there was 25 yards of empty run behind me he could have sped past on.

[Buell]

"Whenever starting downhill or merging into a trail, look uphill and yield to others" is what the rule says - there are no other conditions attached to it. The uphill skier has the responsibility not to hit you, and you have the responsibility to yield to traffic that is already in motion. Both parties have responsibilities of their own.

I have found that others think they are yielding to you because you are on the other side of the run. They figure they will not be in your way if they start downhill on their side of the run. Understandably they cannot comprehend that you will VERY soon be on their side of the run. True though (and I find it incredible), the majority of people do not look uphill before starting. My favorite is the intermediate rider that knows you are coming and wants to get moving before you get to them.

As frustrating as it is, we as carvers must be ready to pull up and yield at anytime, even when we have the right of way. Other resort riders simply do not understand our motion or our speed.

Be safe.

[Buell]

For some reason the skier always wants to go in front of us while we are leaving major ground behind.

They cannot comprehend our speed because we are going side to side and that means slow to them. When they committed to passing us, what ending up being "in front", was supposed to be behind but we had come all the way around again. Then they blame us.

[BlueB]

This has become an interesting thread. Now lets look at us? Yes the Carver. We traverse the runs at speed at times.

I disagree... We do not traverse, we turn. Yes, turn wide, but that's not traversing. When you take your time between the carves and carry on for a while in the direction the laast carve let you in, that's traversing. When you switch your edges right at the end of the turn and start another turn, that's not traversing.

Anyways, traversing or not, that's not in the Skier's Code, so it is irrelevant.

[Phil]

In skiing traversing is a major no no. For beginners only and if they take lessons they are taught not to do it. That's where the danger for us comes into play. If we are on a hill with good skiers, Sun Valley for instance. Great skiers and their at speed on many runs. We traverse, this is where we meet.

"Great Skiers" can and do carve as well. I think that our definition of "great skiers" must be different, but then again, I have been with some of the best, so.... I always tell students "any idiot can go straight (down the fall line)". The ability to go fast down the fall line does not make anyone a "great" anything. :(

As far as traversing, Boris hit the nail on the head.

[carver]

Blue: Were not going down the normal fall line when we make wide turns as you call it. Hell, I start back up the hill and come around to the other side of my path in the opposite direction. Straight is stupid I agree. A good skier can wedlen down a steep run if he is good. It looks straight down, but he is turning to check his speed and stay in control. I can do it on my board. I am staying in a 4 foot wide path. Not on the steep but on a good groomed run, blue ones? If you are doing blacks and double blacks? Have at it! Too much work! Groom is not so good on most of the steep runs anyway. As Cliff Ahumada said "This Is Adult Snowboarding" No stupid stuff? Oh, this is going to get good? If you go from one side of a run to the other? What is it? Tim

[lowrider]

Getting your monies worth.

[carver]

Lowrider: Yup! Steep! You want steep, run for run, Sun Valley where I lived for a few years in the early 60'S ski bumming. Head 210 Vector Comps. Long thong bindings. All of us that used that rig should be in wheel chairs or worse! Every run is steep except, College, Mid to Lower River Run, parts of Warm Springs. Serious steep, Exhibition, Olympic. Canyon, International, Squirrel, The Bowels, etc. Carvedog can jump in. He is still there. The guy that marked the runs must be color blind! Blue and green? Yeah right! Tim

[b0ardski]

Getting your monies worth.

Exactly,

one of my favorite sayings is

"you'll beat me to the bottom but I will have traveled twice as far"

A great skier(or boarder for that matter) is one that can ski the fall line at speed with tight slalom turns or GS style edge to edge carves while avoiding all obstacles be they moving or not.:D

Schwietzer's no slouch when it comes to steep groomers either. 9 winchcat groomers, a couple of them top to bottom!!

[carvedog]

........ Lots of times I will point driectly at people to make shure I get their attention. But at times when your sreaming downhill, its hard to look up hill. I wait for a hole for quite some time.....

Funny I do both of those things too. Another reason to wear gloves instead of your mitties. That way they know you are pointing at them and not flipping them off.

Lowrider: Yup! Steep! You want steep, run for run, Sun Valley where I lived for a few years in the early 60'S ski bumming. Head 210 Vector Comps. Long thong bindings. All of us that used that rig should be in wheel chairs or worse! Every run is steep except, College, Mid to Lower River Run, parts of Warm Springs. Serious steep, Exhibition, Olympic. Canyon, International, Squirrel, The Bowels, etc. Carvedog can jump in. He is still there. The guy that marked the runs must be color blind! Blue and green? Yeah right! Tim

Oh come on. It sucks here. The only reason I don't leave is cuz I am too poor. :eplus2:

Good to see you banging around the forum Tim.

And I sure hope I get to ride with you and Mark too this winter. Bring it on. SV opened today. Decent top to bottom coverage on Riv Run and Warm Springs via Squirrel. But I guess that is another thread.

[TheTruth]

Check this out:

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Racer was reportedly going 70 mph at the time.

[Hugh]

Ouch! Broken legs are no fun, I broke mine in 4th or 5th grade...three distint memories 1). I laid in the school nursing office for 4 hours, then I waited at the hospital for another 4 hours...my broken leg was low priority that day 2) The line of 25-30 girls coming by to see me at home that weekend 3) 13 weeks in a cast (2 casts)...almost the entire summer

Back to the ski crash details: dopes stopping/standing in the center of the run. Snowboarder looking at his target.

Ski or board midweek, ride faster than the dopes behind you. Stop over at the edge of the runs, wear body armor and a helmet. Carry your insurance card, ride with friends, encourage others to do the same

[BlueB]

We have a spot to sit down, or just stop and recompose before the steepast part of the Rainbow. It is bellow a corner and roller, but tucked under the huge post for winch cat and positioned in the way that if you took the corner sharp enough to take out the people below, you would rail yourself into the woods...

On one lap, I st just too far down and not close enough to the edge of the trail. Roy chased me away from there right away. Just as I moved away an out of controll skier flew over the roller with fear in his eyes. He would have taken me out if I still stood there!

Few laps before that, an experienced skier came at the speed from the side (he could fully see us there), skied right in between us, bellow Roy and around me, then turning in few feet left in between myself and the tress! Dumbass, just looking for the trouble...

[BlueB]

Check this out:...

In this case not the uphill skier's mistake! It was clearly a race or a practice run. That bozo was fooling around in the middle of the course. The part I don't understand is how did he get there? Even if the course was not fanced off (it seems not), you can catch the glimps of the race marshal's skis/boots on the upper right corner. I would imaggine that he would have shouted at the guy snoplowing through the course!?!

[jonbass]

I wonder if he was a volunteer working on the course and thought they between runs. Seems like it could be some sort of course miscommunication. That was brutal. Everything exploded.

[Mats]

I can translate it as it´s a swedish newscast. It´ s from downhill training in Sierra Nevada. The guy who crosses the course thought the run was clear. Some sort of bad communication. The female racer was totally innocent as it was a roped of racecourse and she had apparently got OK to go. The speaker says she had a speed of 100km/h = 60 mph

/M

[carvedog]

Ouch! Broken legs are no fun, I broke mine in 4th or 5th grade...three distint memories 1). I laid in the school nursing office for 4 hours, then I waited at the hospital for another 4 hours...my broken leg was low priority that day 2) The line of 25-30 girls coming by to see me at home that weekend 3) 13 weeks in a cast (2 casts)...almost the entire summer

Back to the ski crash details: dopes stopping/standing in the center of the run. Snowboarder looking at his target.

Ski or board midweek, ride faster than the dopes behind you. Stop over at the edge of the runs, wear body armor and a helmet. Carry your insurance card, ride with friends, encourage others to do the same

Is everyone seeing the same video as I am? Group of three to four skiers goes down a skinny "crowded" run. The stop on the left edge of the run and at the beginning of the second run. At the transition is where the skier gets taken out and they all slide into the second run.

This was pretty obvious to me but.....what do I know.

I can translate it as it´s a swedish newscast. It´ s from downhill training in Sierra Nevada. The guy who crosses the course thought the run was clear. Some sort of bad communication. The female racer was totally innocent as it was a roped of racecourse and she had apparently got OK to go. The speaker says she had a speed of 100km/h = 60 mph

/M

He was some sort of official. You can tell by his radio and harness. Both he and the skier broke their legs. She never did return to competition. That is why she is trying to hold her shattered right leg off the snow at the end of the clip.

I have worked pretty closely with ski patrol during races here and they trust me to be on closed courses to move around for photography. I never lollygag around on the Super G and downhill runs cuz you never know what's coming. They should have had a spotter somewhere near that jump for scoring and safety that would have shouted at the guy as soon as he was on the course. Multiple safeties were not followed for this to happen. Tragic.