TheTruth Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 Hey Fin, I'm 100% for what you did. You are lucky you live in a place that still allows self-defense of one's life and property. If you lived in states such as Massachusetts, New York, or New Jersey you would be the one going to jail for trying to protect your property. The thief would only get charged with a misdemeanor, and you would get charged with felony assault with a deadly weapon. Even if you got it dropped by the DA, you would still have spent a good $10,000-$15,000 defending yourself from government charges stemming from defending yourself and your property from a criminal. Sounds crazy, but the gun laws/self defense laws in some states have become draconian. I know a person in Massachusetts who was arrested and charged with assault with a dangerous weapon from trying to defend himself from an attacker swinging a pipe at his head. In self defense, he kicked the legs out from under the attacker and pined him down until the police arrived. This incident happened while he was on his own property, and the attacker was a trespasser. The police did arrest the attacker, but also arrested my friend. They stated he should have tried to "walk" away from the incident. LOL, like you can "walk" away from some nut swinging a pipe at your head while you are on your own property! My friends dangerous weapon: he was wearing shoes. Apparently in Massachusetts, shoes are classified as weapons! After hearing his side of the story, the DA refused to prosecute him, but he still has an arrest record for the rest of his life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted August 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Apparently in Massachusetts, shoes are classified as weapons! Well duh, they might have bombs in them. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTruth Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Well duh, they might have bombs in them. :rolleyes: I know Jack, this incident would be funny except for the implications behind it. My friend now has an arrest record for the rest of his life for defending himself on his on property from a weapon bearing trespasser. In Massachusetts, if you apply for a job, and if the company does a background check, his arrest for "assault and battery w/ dangerous weapon (his shoes) will will come up. In fact, he told me that in his last two job interviews, he was asked about it. He didn't get either job. Was it because he wasn't the most qualified or was it because the company was worried about his arrest record? To add insult to injury, he just told me that his town in refusing to renew his permit to have a hand gun because of his arrest. In Massachusetts, if you want to own a handgun, even if it for just target practice or home defense, you need to go to your local police chief and ask his/her permission to own it. The police chief has the final say on gun ownership, he/she can deny it for any reason, and it is very expensive to appeal the decision. Personally, I think this is a complete violation of the 2nd Amendment, and I hope someday a federal court throws it out. You might be saying "Sue the police for false arrest" After all he was on his own property when it happened. He tried this and it got nowhere. In Massachusetts, the thresh hold for a legal police arrest is extremely low. They can detain you, process you, and charge you with something for just about any reason with no liability on their part. It is up to the DA to determine if the charges can be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt" , and if not, they will drop the charges. But, you still have the arrest that never can be removed from your record. The only thing my friend was able to do successfully do (besides getting the charges dropped) was file an complaint with the town concerning the officers conduct on his property. Actually, now he wishes he didn't even do that, because both he and his attorney now think the police chief is retaliating against him by refusing to renew his handgun permit, using the arrest record as an excuse, all because of the complaint against the police department. He told me last week, that by the time he is done fighting the handgun decision, along with fighting the original arrest charges, he will have spent close to $20,000 in legal bills. All for defending himself against an attacker on his own property!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Yes, Fin was protecting his property. But how much is a human life worth? Seriously, how many people here would really have been willing to pull the trigger, and in all likelihood kill the thief? Any responses might be best in a separate "Off Topic" thread. SunSurfer I've never met him, but I'd be willing to bet that Fin's life is worth defending, with deadly force, if it were to become necessary. Are you suggesting that he just let the guy rip him off, or confront someone who has already demonstrated that they have no respect for their fellow man, without being prepared to defend himself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carver Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Way to go Fin. Jack let me know. Nice to see there are those of us that will stand up. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 TheTruth: I feel for you friend. I am no lawyer but Arrest != conviction? I can be arrest for many thing. If I am not convicted; there should be no record. Once in a traffic stop I got 5 tickets(my car got stolen; so I bought a new used car but didn't have all the paper work with me at the time). I got all of them throw out. My insurance didn't go up. I don't think it's legal for company to make hire decision based on arresting record. All the job application can ask is that have you been convicted of any crime? Otherwise it's consider document harrasment. It could be a state thing I guess... despite the so call separation of power. police == law enforcement judge == decided if you violated the law state congress == law maker -- David Anyway Good Job Fin/Bomber!!! This happen near my work: stole $338,000 in aluminum http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/cops-workers-stole-338-000-in-aluminum-1.1334609 Economy is indeed in a down turn.... Crime rate is up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Keep in mind that this is the wild wild west. Landowners have no reservations about utilizing firearms with people trespassing on their land let alone ripping you off your stuff. Im all for it, mandatory training for all non felons and a fire arm for them. Douche bags will think twice about entering knowing that someone in the house has been trained to use a weapon. Call it a conscript anti douche bag army. Whats mine is not yours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 "My understanding is that the AR-15 shoots high velocity rounds."Absolutley, that's the whole point... "The medical unit's commanding officer told me their rifle's high velocity bullets were lethal if they hit the target anywhere between the elbows and the knees because of the extensive tissue damage caused by the shockwave of the bullet as it passed through." Far too much B.S. here. 5.56 is a proven uderperformer in most theatres of action. The bullet used does have a tendancy to tumble, thus doing more damage internally than the caliber would otherwise do. I would prefer that platform with something along the lines of, say, the 7.62x39 or the 6.8 SPC, but I live in the country and would use it on varmits of the coyote size also. The new .30 Remington holds real promise for the AR platform. "I'm not sure you can shoot an AR-15 to reliably just "wound" somebody." If you are a good shot, yes you could. I've always been taught to shoot center mass, i.e. to reliably neutralize the intended target. Just a few humble thoughts from someone who has spent some time with weapons... I was under the impression the AR-15 WAS designed to wound the target (badly). One dead is one dead. One wounded takes out three, the wounded one and the two that get them off the battlefield. Maybe that doesn't really apply anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Keep in mind that this is the wild wild west. Landowners have no reservations about utilizing firearm with people trespassing on their land let alone ripping you off. Im all for it, mandatory training for all non felons and a fire arm for them. Douche bags will think twice about entering knowing that someone in the house has been trained to use a weapon. Call it a conscript anti douche bag army. Whats mine is not yours! Absolutely, 100%, totally agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 I was under the impression the AR-15 WAS designed to wound the target (badly). One dead is one dead. One wounded takes out three, the wounded one and the two that get them off the battlefield. I thought that the most of the post WW2 millitary rifles were designed around that idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted August 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 Keep in mind that this is the wild wild west. Landowners have no reservations about utilizing firearm with people trespassing on their land let alone ripping you off. Im all for it, mandatory training for all non felons and a fire arm for them. Douche bags will think twice about entering knowing that someone in the house has been trained to use a weapon. Call it a conscript anti douche bag army. Whats mine is not yours! Agreed. I once saw a 20/20 tv special where they interviewed violent crime convicts in a maximum security prison. Really scary dudes. They asked them what was their biggest fear going into their crime. They ALL responded that it was that their intended victim and/or property owner would be packing heat. When asked if the police or jail time was a consideration, they just laughed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Ong Posted August 10, 2009 Report Share Posted August 10, 2009 . The medical unit's commanding officer told me their rifle's high velocity bullets were lethal if they hit the target anywhere between the elbows and the knees because of the extensive tissue damage caused by the shockwave of the bullet as it passed through.SunSurfer You should have spent more time studying ballistics, instead of watching movies eh ? . By picking up a rifle Fin acted in a way that can be interpreted as that he was prepared to kill to protect his property. SunSurfer You want to live like sheep that's your business. Waitaminute, New Zealand you say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTruth Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 TheTruth:I feel for you friend. I am no lawyer but Arrest != conviction? I can be arrest for many thing. If I am not convicted; there should be no record. Once in a traffic stop I got 5 tickets(my car got stolen; so I bought a new used car but didn't have all the paper work with me at the time). I got all of them throw out. My insurance didn't go up. I don't think it's legal for company to make hire decision based on arresting record. All the job application can ask is that have you been convicted of any crime? Otherwise it's consider document harrasment. It could be a state thing I guess... despite the so call separation of power. police == law enforcement judge == decided if you violated the law state congress == law maker -- David Anyway Good Job Fin/Bomber!!! This happen near my work: stole $338,000 in aluminum http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/cops-workers-stole-338-000-in-aluminum-1.1334609 Economy is indeed in a down turn.... Crime rate is up. It is a state thing, and Massachusetts is the worst of the worst. In Massachusetts, there is an document known as a CORI (Criminal Offender Record Information). One is generated everytime you have an official interaction with any police department in the state. Get falsely accused of something, you get a CORI for life. Get arrested, but all charges are later dropped, you get a CORI for life. Get a speeding ticket, you get a CORI for life. If you witnessed a crime, but had nothing to do with it, and are officially questioned by the police, you get a CORI for life. It goes on and on. Employers can tap into the CORI system to do background checks on their employees. Volunteer organizations and schools can do the same. I had to have a clean CORI check just to be able to go to my daughters school and read a book to her kindergarden class! Every interaction with the police shows up in code, and most people do not know how to read it. Yes, it is used against people all the time. Many organizations do not want to take the time to figure out the codes, so if anything shows up on a CORI check, they just dismiss you. I have another friend (who is a 45 year old successful professional) who was not allowed to coach his sons baseball team. The league requires CORI checks on all coaches, and something came up on his. 25 years earlier he was busted at college by the campus police for underage drinking. He was celebrating his 21st birthday, the night before he actually turned 21. The policed arrested him at 11PM, 1 hour before his birthday!!! Of course, the local judge threw this out, but the absurd arrest record was his for life, only to prevent him from coaching his son 25 years later! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted August 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 so glad I emigrated from Mass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjvircks Posted August 11, 2009 Report Share Posted August 11, 2009 I was just looking over the Bomber Store and see that TD3s are out of stock and won't be available until November!!! Someone needs to get out there and guard Fin's scrap pile for him so he can get his mill churning out more bindings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Late to the party but here goes.... 1) .223 is a small round near useless on the battlefield. It was indeed designed to wound not kill. IT takes 6-8 men to take care of a wounded comrade and only 2 to carry a body. Numbers call for wounded enemy not dead ones. high velocity is only a single component of the equation. bullet cross section is much more deadly. as well as weight. I would take a hit from an ar15 over a slow low velocity circa 1850 45-70 any day. 80 grain bullet vs 500 grain bullet 2) The little black rifle is an excellent choice for home defense as far as rifles go. Fin is a great example. its intimidating as hell. nobody was even injured which may not have been the case had fin attended the party with a rolled up newspaper ala Mass. 3) We have very little crime in the west because this happens alot. nuff said Montana has recently passed a law affirming a citizens right to open carry and defense of self others and property with no duty to retreat. I recomend not stealing **** or harming others while visiting our fair state. good on ya Fin:biggthump We'll no who to call when the chips are down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTruth Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Montana has recently passed a law affirming a citizens right to open carry and defense of self others and property with no duty to retreat. I recomend not stealing **** or harming others while visiting our fair state. Not all the states in the east are as draconian and unenlightened about the 2nd Amendment as Massachusetts. Up in New Hampshire, open carry is legal and it is a simple procedure to get a handgun. I believe its a similar story in Vermont. I not sure about Maine's gun laws. Pennsylvania is a full open carry state and a "shall issue" concealed carry state. That means anyone of legal age can carry a loaded handgun on their person out in the open, and the state must issue an concealed weapons permit unless you are a convicted felon or have a history of mental illness. Pennsylvanians not only have no duty to retreat, but if you break into their homes, they have no duty to even ask why you are there or to find out if you are armed before they shoot you. Considering there is something like 2 million heavily armed deer hunters in PA, I would not recommend breaking and entering in that state either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powdahbonz Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 I'm not on the far right or far left but if you come on my property, try to steal from me, try to escape from your crime, I am going to try and stop you so that you may not attempt it again. If it is my right, then I will exercise my right and will do so but by being practical, logical and to not endanger self or others nor subject myself to possible arrest. Protecting my family and my livelihood is okay by me. Doesn't matter if it's an AR15, Walther P22 or 12 gauge loaded w/ rock salt...whatever gets it done. Good for you Fin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Curious, most of the "low crime" states--Montana, Vermont, New Hampshire--also have extremely small, largely homogeneous, mostly rural populations. Is it the gun laws or the demographics? Eh, debatable. If I remember correctly, So. Central L.A. is part of "the west" too. Anyway, I don't know Fin, but I'm glad no one was hurt, and that he got his stuff back. I'm also sorry that our friend from New Zealand was shut down in such a harsh (and I'd say childish) way. I'm sure he's big enough of a man to handle it though. As for me, I think I live in a largely safe area, in one of the most affluent countries in the world. If I lived in S. Africa during the heyday of carjackings, I'd probably own a gun too. But I don't. The last person I know that was robbed had about $6,000 of goods ripped of from his business a few months ago. Turned out it was two local 7th graders who used to hang around his bike shop. I guess he could have shot them if this were another state--that might have taught their parents and the other school kids a lesson. I'm glad he didn't have the legal right to make that choice--and I think our community is glad too. Come to think of it, the more I see people texting and driving around here, the more I doubt that most people have any sense of what's truly a "threat" to their own safety. (Though protecting property might be a good thing. I'd LOVE to shoot the ATV'ers cutting through my back yard and ripping things up. It would get out a alot of my pent up anger too!) Call me a pussy if you will. I don't really care. This isn't a schoolyard. And wait, wasn't this site supposed to be about snowboarding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 Don't get many gun shot wounds in NZ so ballistics knowledge is not a strong point in our medical training. My thanks to those who've increased my knowledge, and kept this thread polite and thoughtful despite the diversity of views expressed. SunSurfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 And wait, wasn't this site supposed to be about snowboarding? It's summer...it would get pretty boring with 50 "is it winter yet" threads and one "I'm in Chile waren't you jealous" thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 The west as cited no longer includes the left coast! this is always an emotional issue for people it seems. I would love it to be an intellectual issue or at least a logical issue. My basic concern is the right to protect myself and my family. those of you who live in big cities are conditioned to call 911 and hope the cops get there in time. wait times have been researched and in the cities where you would think they would respond the quickest show that they get there in time to clean up the mess. In a rural area you can absolutely count on them not arriving in time to help. Fin is a great example of the usual outcome. Every now and then someone gets shot but only when the homeowner feels threatened to the point of self preservation kicking in. I really tire of the assumption that just because I own a gun and am mentally prepared to use it, I am somehow blood crazed and can't wait to kill something. No normal human wants to kill another human. I have a gun solely for the purpose of surviving a situation where an abnormal human is intent on taking my life or that of my family or neighbors. Theft isn't gonna get you killed in my house but it will get you caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algunderfoot Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 I am very passionate on the issue of 2nd amendment rights and the rest of our Constitution for that matter, but I avoided this eventual frey as I had a hunch it could get contentious. However, I personally feel Dr. D. just hit this shot straight off the tee. I, as you and most American gun owners know that we are our own first responders, it is our right. Those who choose to depend on a government agency to be their's, certainly have that right too. The consiquences of that choice will be their's as well! Thank you Dr. ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr D Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 I, as you and most American gun owners know that we are our own first responders, it is our right. Those who choose to depend on a government agency to be their's, certainly have that right too. The consiquences of that choice will be their's as well! quote] well put al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 I used to shoot anything that moved im my back yard.. Half the fun is the kick and actually seeing if you could hit it the dammm thing (306)... Love the beginning of the movie The Shooter with Marky Mark... "Theres only two that I know that can make that shot...ones dead and the other one they tried to bury in the desert" how do I know... I still got the shovel... or something like that. RSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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