expert skiers

[BobD]

A couple of recent quotes from expert skiers I thought I might share...

carving, "it's the easiest of things to do requiring the very least of concentration or effort which is why most accomplished skiers move on to other challenges. It's a pretty low input thing "

and

"What I understood from that post was that modern carving skis are designed to carve. Balance on the ski and it will do all the work for you."

No wonder some of them still can't carve well.

BobD

[b0ardski]

"it's the easiest of things to do requiring the very least of concentration or effort which is why most accomplished skiers move on to other challenges."

Carving C shaped railroad tracks definately takes effort, now try it switch.

"Balance on the ski and it will do all the work for you."

see above

[Guest]

He is right. Carving on skiis for advanced riders is pretty easy. Heck, I don't have much experience on skiis and I can carve pretty well. Powder, bumps, trees, steeps, cliffs, etc. all pose mroe of a challenge.

[BlueB]

Bumps, trees, steeps, cliffs... they are harder to ride on an alpine board then just carve nice C turns on the groomed, too. Right?

However, there are very few recreational skiers out there who can use full potential of their carving skis. Exactelly the same situation as in snowboarding.

On our hill there are handfull of people who can carve close to full linked C on very mellow terrein, and maybe 3 or 4 who can do it on steeper stuff. (Racer kids not taken into account - they carve like demons, but seldom do full C).

Then, ask a skier to name more then 2 types of carved turn and they'll stare blank at you.

I think the general mindset and contemporary culture are steered away from highly technical skills. It's percieved as more fun to do "wild" or "extreme" things in less orderly fashion. That means carving = boring; trees / clifs = macho, in, fun. Yet, while carving every mistake can be sees (and felt), while when just going wild in the bushes nobody cares about technique imperfections.

Still, I see more heads turning on chairlift when I come down in perfect laid carves on groomed, on snowboard or skis, then when I do a very chellenging steep bump run.

[tex1230]

where is skeezrule when you need him?

[BobD]

I think I was taken aback by those statements because skiers locally here are carving in increasing numbers and most seem interested in the technicalities of carving. I had never heard anyone speak quite so dismissively of carving. The same type of people say snowboarding is popular because it's easy.

BobD

[Neil Gendzwill]

The same type of people say snowboarding is popular because it's easy.

I think that's largely true. The path from total beginner to navigating intermediate runs is pretty short compared to skiing. Give a reasonably talented person a couple of days and he can skid his way around pretty successfully.

[Petrol]

I think that's largely true. The path from total beginner to navigating intermediate runs is pretty short compared to skiing. Give a reasonably talented person a couple of days and he can skid his way around pretty successfully.

I have to disagree, to me at least, skiing is/was far easier, especially the first day.

[bobdea]

most skiers hardly understand what we call a carve

even some great skiers I know don't really lay it down well because they're not that interested.

there's others though that given the right ski kill it and make me want to ski

[Jack M]

The vast majority of skiers still can't carve turns at the radii AND speeds that we do. If they could they might be singing a different tune. Carving the way we do is very physically demanding. In fact I can think of only one skier I've ever seen in person who could do it.

like I said in the other thread where this appeared: close but no cigar.... definitely no cigar.

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[Mike T]

There's a couple of cats at Bachelor who can go as fast and tight... two differences to what is shown in the above vid:

1) They don't get as low, no body contact with snow

2) Their turns are a little more S-shaped and a little more C-shaped.

Based on watching said skiers, the C-shaped turns are the part that's easy for us and hard for them.

[carvedog]

like I said in the other thread where this appeared: close but no cigar.... definitely no cigar.......

That's the wobble leg guy. I know he is trying but if I had that much shaking and wobbling going on when I snowboard, I would crap my pants.

I have to disagree, to me at least, skiing is/was far easier, especially the first day.

My ski school director in Mt took a hard boot lesson from me for an hour his first time on board. He was carving in ski boots by the end of the hour. No edge catches, just a couple of low speed tipovers.

Granted this was extreme - a really good athlete - but who has seen a never ever skier go to full carve in an hour? Granted he wasn't laying it out on steep terrain, but good solid carves with a speedy transition.

Is it apples and oranges? I don't think so. If I get a student who is a totally empty cup, no preconceptions and really willing to listen, it is amazing what can happen in a couple of hours.

I can't think of anyone I have even heard of doing the same thing on skis. My first day on a board was one of the most painful of my life in a couple of ways. That is why I can relate to the newbies, but we know there is an easier way.

[mr_roboteye]

The reason that the guy's outside ski is chattering is because he's "cheating" by locking his knee . If the knees were bent a little more, it would allow him to absorb the chatter with his suspension (legs). The leg strength required to do this with bent knees and carve very low is tremendous, and usually only world cup racers, or ski / board bums who ski every day can do this on skis or a board.

later,

Dave R.

[Petrol]

My ski school director in Mt took a hard boot lesson from me for an hour his first time on board. He was carving in ski boots by the end of the hour. No edge catches, just a couple of low speed tipovers.

Granted this was extreme - a really good athlete - but who has seen a never ever skier go to full carve in an hour? Granted he wasn't laying it out on steep terrain, but good solid carves with a speedy transition.

Is it apples and oranges? I don't think so. If I get a student who is a totally empty cup, no preconceptions and really willing to listen, it is amazing what can happen in a couple of hours.

I can't think of anyone I have even heard of doing the same thing on skis. My first day on a board was one of the most painful of my life in a couple of ways. That is why I can relate to the newbies, but we know there is an easier way.

True that... I mean from the neverever (boarder and/or skier) with first time on the snow prospective.

I know my first day on skis was strangely, pretty freaking easy. My first day on a board was easy once I got over the intial strange sensation of having both feet strapped to the same board with no real independant movement and the tightrope feel of going to slow. I was hitting what they call black diamonds around here that afternoon, but then I had almost 20 yrs of skiing behind me.

[bigdyno]

I was a fairly regular rec skier growing up but stopped around 16. I didn't pick up boarding until I was 21. The first run I did on the green hill took me 45 minutes and then I went to one lesson and was go from there. I wouldn't say it was hard learning to snowboard, but certainly difficult to master if you are trying to be a technical boarder.

Besides, skidsteer is for tractors.....

[KingCrimson]

The reason that the guy's outside ski is chattering is because he's "cheating" by locking his knee . If the knees were bent a little more, it would allow him to absorb the chatter with his suspension (legs). The leg strength required to do this with bent knees and carve very low is tremendous, and usually only world cup racers, or ski / board bums who ski every day can do this on skis or a board.

later,

Dave R.

Funny you mention this Dave, just ran across this photo today.

WC racers do it too.

[two_ravens]

That's the wobble leg girl. I know she is trying but if I had that much shaking and wobbling going on when I snowboard, I would crap my pants.

I believe it's a girl in that video - fixed it for ya! :) And her outside ski is wobbling like that because it isn't really engaged with the snow, it's just an outrigger - she's doing her carve almost entirely on the inside ski.

[mr_roboteye]

Funny you mention this Dave, just ran across this photo today.

WC racers do it too.

Just cuz a world cupper does it, doesn't make it right. The 38th person down the course, 3rd string, slovenian ski team chick is a world cup racer, but not a good one. I don't know who is in the picture, but it's a poor example of good body position on a GS turn. Hands flailing at the side, weight on the backs of her skis. You will have difficulty finding a picture of a top level racer skiing like this.

Here it is done right, by the best ski racer (until his accident) in the world. HM. No staight legging here.

Trivia question for kingcrimson for bonus points: How is Hermann Maier connected to hardboot snowboarding?

later,

Dave R.

[KingCrimson]

Just cuz a world cupper does it, doesn't make it right. The 38th person down the course, 3rd string, slovenian ski team chick is a world cup racer, but not a good one. I don't know who is in the picture, but it's a poor example of good body position on a GS turn. Hands flailing at the side, weight on the backs of her skis. You will have difficulty finding a picture of a top level racer skiing like this.

Here it is done right, by the best ski racer (until his accident) in the world. HM. No staight legging here

Trivia question for kingcrimson for bonus points: How is Hermann Maier connected to hardboot snowboarding?

later,

Dave R.

I don't know jack about skiing, just noticed it.

Herman Maier..The only thing I'm aware of him connecting with is his face with the snow in 1998.(?)

[mr_roboteye]

Hermann Maier's younger brother, Alexander, used to race FIS snowboard world cup.

http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.html?sector=SB&listid=&competitorid=36988&type=result

Helluva nice guy too, when in town for an event, the Austrian snowboard team happened to stay at the hotel I was working at while I was living in Whistler.

later,

Dave R.

[skatha]

Hmmm.....First day snowboarding...on a played out board on ice at Heavenly-my a** was purple!

6 years later....my first ski lesson was taken after skiing for 2 days(the year before)-taken mainly because I was transposing ice skating techniques to skiing and I wanted to learn the right way instead. I was carving that first day. Skis are made to decamber and carve now. It's just most people concentrate on getting downhill and not how they are going to get downhill. My instructor was impressed I was carving but he said, couched in a realization I have a better body sense than many people- I was a "natural athlete"

[BlueB]

Just cuz a world cupper does it, doesn't make it right. The 38th person down the course, 3rd string, slovenian ski team chick is a world cup racer, but not a good one. I don't know who is in the picture, but it's a poor example of good body position on a GS turn. Hands flailing at the side, weight on the backs of her skis. You will have difficulty finding a picture of a top level racer skiing like this.

Here it is done right, by the best ski racer (until his accident) in the world. HM. No staight legging here.

As the matter of fact, there's probably the same amount of outer leg flex in the 2 pics. Slovenian girl you see in almost frontal elevation, while Herminator is almost in profile. That would make girls's knee angle just appear as lesser.

Outer hand up is a commonly used technigue in GS, especially modern one. Hand gets dropped through the turn adding a bit of extra pressure to the outer edge.

[BlueB]

I believe it's a girl in that video - fixed it for ya! :) And her outside ski is wobbling like that because it isn't really engaged with the snow, it's just an outrigger - she's doing her carve almost entirely on the inside ski.

Yes it's a girl.

When ECing on skis weight is pretty much 50/50. It's just the fact that you are so laid out, every unexpected irregularity in the snow can throw you out of ballance enough to lose propper engagement of the outer ski. It's almost impossible to loose the edge on the inner, unless you boot-out. It is easy to re-engage the outer ski again, providing you are not on overly stiff planks.

[carvedog]

Yes it's a girl.

When ECing on skis weight is pretty much 50/50. It's just the fact that you are so laid out, every unexpected irregularity in the snow can throw you out of ballance enough to lose propper engagement of the outer ski. It's almost impossible to loose the edge on the inner, unless you boot-out. It is easy to re-engage the outer ski again, providing you are not on overly stiff planks.

So you are saying the Euroski Girl ( thanks Kelly) has even weight on her skis?

Sorry Boris but I gotta call bs ( at least it's lower case) all over that.

The outside ski is barely engaged at all. I am no skier - my seven yr old can testify - but I do know body position and how to tell if a ski is engaged.

Enlighten me.

[BlueB]

I was talking in general.

As for the EC girl, after reviewing that vid again (it's been 6 mnts since I watched it last), I accept the "bs". Her outer does disengage at least 40% of time. However, you'll see some clean turns. Her entry and exit are mostly clean too.

When you watch slo-mo EC snowboarding, the board often dis-engages and re-engages, too.