Deuce Dual Edge Snowboard

[b0ardski]

Actually the swing-bo was used as a sit ski for the "Ski for all" adaptive program at Snoqualmie Pass In the early '90s with some success.

The Schwietzer "snow sports school" (rediculous politicly correct moniker, It's all skiing) still has one in thier arsenal. It's a good tool for teaching a novice sit skier.

Once a sitskier becomes proficient they always move on to a single ski rig for more precise control in a wider range of turn shape, & snow conditions.

There is a parapelegic sit skier who frequents Schwietzer and rides black diamond runs with the best of us.

The Duece definately looks to have the swing-bo beat with modern engineering, and more durable mechanics. The sit skiers that I have met are as passionate about thier rigs as any gear head.

I do believe the deuce has a future as a high quality adaptive ski rig.

Todd, you should contact Ski For All in the Seattle area to get more information, also sport wheelchair manufacturers may have info or marketing contacts.

Keep the dream alive,

Troy

[KingCrimson]

I'm with Nate here.

Theodore. :p

[EnisiWaya]

I see several serious questions. Let me answer them to the best of my ability.

Shawndoggy: You commented that the it looks like the board skids a lot. I think what you are referring to are the intentional push outs to spill energy. As one goes downhill a rider/skier is gathering speed (energy), and that must be "spilled". The difference is that the classic snowboard inherently spills, and it takes a lot of training and concentration of the rider to make a classic board cleanly carve and not spill. Where the spilling is mostly seen/heard as scraping.

Last year which had had to stop part way through due to an old navy back injury was my 42 year teaching skiing and snowboarding as a professional.

"downhill energy must be spilled" this sounds like techno talk from someone whose drunk brother in law taught them to ski. Hope you don't ski or ride on any of the mountains we frequent.

Since I was first trained as a Professional Ski Instructor in 1964 controlling your speed has always been best accomplished by finishing your turns back across the fall line, maybe even back up into the fall line. This, since then, has always been a teaching constant in PSIA CSIA, AASI, and CASI. If you don't know about them then you have not done even minor due diligence for your engineering. I am not going to do it for you. Boris, Myself, And many of the others on this list have devoted a lifetime to understanding the physics and forces and body joint/muscle capabilities of any kind of snow covered down hill travel.

For one thing in my mind, as a ex-robotics (you can Google Chase H. Kenyon for some of my stuff) and Certified Manufacturing Engineer,

I can not see any valid design relationship with the control of edge bend/effective sidecut radius and the distribution of the centripital forces of the turn. Your concept of skid to bleed off speed is not how proficient skiers snowBoarders or adaptive skiers and riders control a turn and their speed. This concept/lack of understanding has led to a design I believe would actually prevent someone from doing a push pull type turn on skis or snowboard which is how most advanced skier and riders distribute the centripital and gravitational forces out through the length of the entire turn. The point is, the most control over speed and turn shape occurs when the side load and pressure on the edge of the ski or board is constant throughout the turn. Same as a race car, same as a plane in the air, or a boat on the water, in a turn at speed.

The difference is that the classic snowboard inherently spills,and it takes a lot of training and concentration of the rider to make a classic board cleanly carve and not spill

Says who? If you can not carve you can not pass level 1 CASI or AASI so that you can teach beginners on the magic carpet area.

Even if I am out teaching soft boot snowboard lessons and get a chance for a quick run I still have my standards. In my 12 year old SIS softies and on my 12 year old Arbor Woodie if my turns on the hard pack groomed last night, then froze up "courderoy" left carving tracks wider than two inches let alone a "bleed off skid" I'd of quit for the day.

I don't see your product's value as a skier as a snowboarder or as an engineer. But I do agree with some of the others that with more work it may have adaptive potential.

Sincerely,

Chase

[DiveBomber]

I got it!

combine this with the NoBoard and, and....and...

[EnisiWaya]

I see several serious questions. Let me answer them to the best of my ability.

Shawndoggy: You commented that the it looks like the board skids a lot. I think what you are referring to are the intentional push outs to spill energy. As one goes downhill a rider/skier is gathering speed (energy), and that must be "spilled". The difference is that the classic snowboard inherently spills, and it takes a lot of training and concentration of the rider to make a classic board cleanly carve and not spill. Where the spilling is mostly seen/heard as scraping.

Last year which had had to stop part way through due to an old navy back injury was my 42 year teaching skiing and snowboarding as a professional.

"downhill energy must be spilled" this sounds like techno talk from someone whose drunk brother in law taught them to ski. Hope you don't ski or ride on any of the mountains we frequent.

Since I was first trained as a Professional Ski Instructor in 1964 controlling your speed has always been best accomplished by finishing your turns back across the fall line, maybe even back up into the fall line. This, since then, has always been a teaching constant in PSIA CSIA, AASI, and CASI. If you don't know about them then you have not done even minor due diligence for your engineering. I am not going to do it for you. Boris, Myself, And many of the others on this list have devoted a lifetime to understanding the physics and forces and body joint/muscle capabilities of any kind of snow covered down hill travel.

For one thing in my mind, as a ex-robotics (you can Google Chase H. Kenyon for some of my stuff) and Certified Manufacturing Engineer,

I can not see any valid design relationship with the control of edge bend/effective sidecut radius and the distribution of the centripital forces of the turn. Your concept of skid to bleed off speed is not how proficient skiers snowBoarders or adaptive skiers and riders control a turn and their speed. This concept/lack of understanding has led to a design I believe would actually prevent someone from doing a push pull type turn on skis or snowboard which is how most advanced skier and riders distribute the centripital and gravitational forces out through the length of the entire turn. The point is, the most control over speed and turn shape occurs when the side load and pressure on the edge of the ski or board is constant throughout the turn. Same as a race car, same as a plane in the air, or a boat on the water, in a turn at speed.

The difference is that the classic snowboard inherently spills,and it takes a lot of training and concentration of the rider to make a classic board cleanly carve and not spill

Says who? If you can not carve you can not pass level 1 CASI or AASI so that you can teach beginners on the magic carpet area.

Even if I am out teaching soft boot snowboard lessons and get a chance for a quick run I still have my standards. In my 12 year old SIS softies and on my 12 year old Arbor Woodie if my turns on the hard pack groomed last night, then froze up "courderoy" left carving tracks wider than two inches let alone a "bleed off skid" I'd of quit for the day.

I don't see your product's value as a skier as a snowboarder or as an engineer. But I do agree with some of the others that with more work it may have adaptive potential.

Sincerely,

Chase

[bobdea]

a pulse is about all that's required for level 1 aasi

[nekdut]

I think we scared the OP away.

:)

[Dan]

I think we scared the OP away.

:)

I hope not, folks here are about as respectful as an online audience is going to get. Think we had a lot of legitimate questions...anyone here who looked at that video would agree that it doesn't give any kind of impression of the Deuce's ability to hold an edge.

If they're not willing to engage with this audience, which actually knows how to carve and doesn't mind rocking unconventional gear, how are they going to be able to talk to the (much larger) population of teen and 20-something steeze-skidders?

[trailertrash]

If you are a critical thinker, are willing to challenge the status quo, and stand for what might be a controversial advancement, or you know of anyone like that, please contact us (see our website deucesnowboards.com).

obviously, its not that this thing is a joke, its that we are not critical thinkers or are willing to challenge the status quo.

[Rob Stevens]

With a couple of downhill MTB shocks per side to centre it, as NateW said and this would be great for the parapalegic whose paralysis begins at the bottom of the ribcage and has no abdominal stability. The single ski sit device requires core strength. This one wouldn't, but would work even better if the user did.

Great idea in that regard.

As for the able bodied using it? It would have to do something critical to snowboarding in a better way and it doesn't. If "more edges" create "more grip" this advantage is lost in the high, unbalanced and rather precarious position of the bindings. There is a point at which the additional leverage of a long lever extending from the base is lost to balance difficulties.

I'm guessing the OP spent a few bucks getting this to the point it is now. If he hasn't fled I implore him to proceed no further in promoting this to the snowboard world. If the "spill" is desinged in, everyone here will hate it. These folks want to rail at all costs. The rest of the SB community will give you much less feedback and simply hang the "gay" tag on it. Try posting this up on www.snowboard.com if you doubt me.

DiveBomber: This would be better with no bindings, but you could have 6 NoBoards for the price and slay pow sooo much better. Thanks for thinking of us just the same.

EnisiWaya: Buddy... I have never seen you rip the lid off like that. Good one. A couple of things though. You don't have to carve for a CASI level 1 and if "finishing your turns back up the fall line, or uphill" was your only tool for speed control, you'd be in trouble on any terrain other than abandoned, wide and perfectly groomed slopes. "Displacement" (though I don't mind "spill"... That's not a bad word I'll poach for later) or anytime the tail doesn't follow the line of the nose, or if the rider moves to a wider line than the one the turn started on, is a big part of riding with the exception of perfectly carved turns. The car-boat-plane analogy is fine, if you're talking about smooth terrain like an F1 track, air or glass smooth water, with no obstacles or inconsistancies. All mountain SB is more like rally driving and having a WRX without using the slide for direction change would be a waste.

[DiveBomber]

DiveBomber: This would be better with no bindings, but you could have 6 NoBoards for the price and slay pow sooo much better. Thanks for thinking of us just the same.

Sure, with a Snorkle!:lol:

[Phil]

I think that this is a great discussion.

Todd Belt has worked hard to come up with the results that he has. I applaud him for that.

I know that the questions and criticisms here must be difficult to deal with, but I also think that the BOL community has been thoughtful about the topic and responded well.

A lot of you are suggesting this for adaptive programs. I agree, but it is a little late for that. This kind of design is already widely in use in adaptive programs (see pic).

It is tough to see a need for a product like this from inside the industry. It is even tougher to see spending $2000 on it. Of course, it was tough for skiers to see a need to have real sidecut, too.

I agree that this should be brought to one of the BOL sessions or festivals. I am sure that everyone would love to try it.

I have to agree that having someone in the video who is a more solid rider would be helpful (all due respect to your rider in the video). There are probably a lot of fundamentally sound riders out there who would be willing to give it a go and be video taped free of charge.

Todd - I wish you well in your endeavor. Hopefully the feedback here can be helpful.

[Hotbeans]

Wow, Phil. That looks pretty much like what's being discussed..

[Phil]

It is. As discussed, it works really well for this application.

[Jack M]

obviously, its not that this thing is a joke, its that we are not critical thinkers or are willing to challenge the status quo.

what?

[trailertrash]

what?

exactly.

[carvedog]

I don't get this at all. It looks like trying to drive a 4wd vehicle without gearing to allow different speeds for the wheels.

As if it wasn't hard enough for an old fat guy to stand up on a board then add in 4 or 5 inches of lift. ??????

And the use of the word "spill". There is so much here that feels like sand in my crack I can't even tell you.

And the OP disappears after a couple of posts.

And I don't really have any trouble with edge hold myself, but it sure looked like the guy in the vid did. At least with the couple of counter-rotated-throw-your-back-foot-out turns that I saw.

Good luck - you are going to need it. Hope you have some good liabilty insurance on that thing too.

From their website

We are here to stop and reverse that trend. We are here to offer the answer to those that crave the power carve, that want their money’s worth in equipment, that want a high performance snowboard.

Love the power carve statment.

[tex1230]

I would like to commend the civility of the membership here. I'd love to see the reaction to this contraption on TGR or Snowboard.com :rolleyes:

[trailertrash]

I would like to commend the civility of the membership here. I'd love to see the reaction to this contraption on TGR or Snowboard.com :rolleyes:

I am curious if the OP looked around at all on this site or just saw that it was snowboarding site and posted. Has anybody looked on snowboard.com to see if he did post there?

[carvedog]

I would like to commend the civility of the membership here. I'd love to see the reaction to this contraption on TGR or Snowboard.com :rolleyes:

Believe me, I was restraining myself, attempting to be a true ambassador for the sport.

Chase kind of called it right, too.

[tex1230]

actually found it on TGR...I commented there and forgot about it...

they were pretty civil too...much better than they were to the Rax Skis guy...

[Rob Stevens]

And the OP disappears after a couple of posts.

.

He doesn't need to post up again to know what we think.

I'm bummed for the guy having lost all that $. He could have plowed it into the market back in Oct and saves himself the trouble.

[Kent]

I'm late to the party...and appears you guys pushed the thread starter away.

Just to confirm a few facts. Skiing did NOT make any ground on snowboarding.

In 2007 - Skiing dipped 14%, Snowboarding dipped 2.7%. Since 2001, there has been no year in which the growth of skiing increased more than snowboarding.

Source - American Sports Data and National Sporting Goods Assoc:

http://www.americansportsdata.com/ss_participation1.asp

http://www.nsga.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3483

FWIW - I own a Swingbow. It's at a buddy's house....and can take photos tonight. The foot straps are busted, but otherwise is decent shape. Anyone wanna buy it?

Yes..it was a piece of crap.

It should be noted that I started a patent on a dual edge snowboard, but got denied as Hooger had one in production at that time. Darn it! It was basically a base/edge on top of a base/edge. I could post photos if you'ld like.

[tex1230]

FWIW - I own a Swingbow. It's at a buddy's house....and can take photos tonight. The foot straps are busted, but otherwise is decent shape. Anyone wanna buy it?

Paging Boardski...

[kjl]

I just saw this thread, and actually think it looks pretty cool. Perhaps overengineered and heavy, etc., but I think the BMW Streetcarver is pretty sweet, too.

If the 165 Deuce has a reasonably large sidecut radius, I would actually really love to try it out. I submit to the super geeks of carving community these 3 observations:

1) Running over terrain features smaller than the distance between the two contact edges should be significantly smoother, at least in theory. A 1" bump under only one of the two skis would only result in a 0.5" deflection for the rider. So riding over all the ruts from other carvers and other small features (basically anything high frequency enough that would contribute to "chatter") could be ~50% smoother.

2) Much of your weight will be on an edge that is directly underneath your feet, as opposed to one that is ~8-10cm towards the inside of the turn, like a normal snowboard. That's like a few more degrees of angulation for free.

3) A kind of confusing point, but like the BMW Streetcarver, I would imagine that it eliminates (or depending on the geometry, greatly reduces) the need for strength at the ankle to hold or change the edge angle; i.e. you could carve it easily with softies or maybe even with no bindings? If you stand straight up on a 35 degree slope on a snowboard with a 100 lb backpack, eventually your calves will explode from trying to stay on your tiptoes. With a Streetcarver and I suspect the Deuce as well, you could stand there all day with no effort. I bet Rob Stevens could ride this on the groom easily with no bindings since he's used to having to maintain steady foot pressure when turning on the noboard...

My main problem with this invention (as it relates to carving), is that I like to lean the board over 70 degrees or more, often. There's no way the Deuce suspension mechanism can keep both edges in contact at 70 or 80 degrees (skiers have a hard time doing it, and their legs have 2-3' of travel ;) ). As I lean over, at whatever angle the Deuce mechanism stops rotating, there will be a noticeable bump, and then I will be simply riding a single, albeit very narrow, snowboard, except that there's no way it will be as high quality as my Coiler. I wonder how far you can lean it over before one of the skis loses contact with the snow?

In any case, I think it would be fun to try one. I imagine points 1 and 3 (smoothing of chatter and elimination of ankle strength) would make it at least "more powderlike" when riding it on groom.