Deuce Dual Edge Snowboard

toddbelt · December 5, 2008

Hi Bombers,

We are starting to reach out to the community of riders, especially to find the innovators and early adopters. Since the DES ride is different from the classic snowboard ride, and since this technology is clearly in contrast to the current culture, it is important that the people that give it a serious go, give it an open minded go. If you are a critical thinker, are willing to challenge the status quo, and stand for what might be a controversial advancement, or you know of anyone like that, please contact us (see our website deucesnowboards.com).

From all of us at Deuce, we wish you the very best for the holidays.

Todd Belt

Founder/CEO

Deuce Snowboards, LLC

Jack M · December 5, 2008

Just curious if you're aware of the Swingbo? And if so, what makes you think it will succeed this time around? I don't mean that rhetorically or in a mean way.

http://www.oldsnowboards.com/pics/album66

toddbelt · December 5, 2008

Thanks for asking that. There isn't room in our general marketing messages to discuss this, but we are happy to, especially since it is the core of our 90 page business plan. Distilling those 90 pages down is a bit difficult but I'll give it a shot. Also, I have not rode a Swingbo or seen one in person, and only know of it because riders have told us about it.

The Swingbo was ahead of it's time, and required further design engineering.

Snowboarding peaked four years ago, and has steadily lost market share to skiing since then. What is known about this shift so far is that it is characterized by older snowboarders leaving for twin-tip freeskiing, and younger than 17 new entrants favoring skiing. Before we had this data, we had designed the DES expecting this shift to happen. We expected this shift because we identified a significant gear deficiency of the snowboard in comparison to skis. Snowboards have dramatically less grip on the snow then skis, and grip is a fundamental parameter of the gear, possibly THE fundamental parameter. We can confidently tell you that our DES has fixed that problem.

Then there is the issue of prior market acceptance as an indication of future acceptance. We can only guess at what happened with the Swingbo. My guess is that it was one or both of two things. First, there are several design issues. From what we can surmize, the Swingbo mechanism doesn't allow a wide range of rotation. The sidecuts are not equal and seem to have too small of a radius. Plus, it had the same binding and non-metal edge issues as snowboards of it's time, and since those were not fixed it couldn't compete. The other big issue is that it might not have been marketed properly and aggressively. Keep in mind that snowboarding is much of what it is today because of how Jake Burton, who had the resources, developed the sport. In contrast to Swingbo's failure (I say that with all due respect) there have been several design attempts at a Dual Edge Snowboard. But they were all technically deficient. We haven't created the core concept of a DES, but we are the first to create a viable design.

Our DES is a new ride and challenging. But it has a remarkable and enjoyable feel all its own. For those of you that want snowboarding to be like surfing, this is what you have been wanting. For those of you that love the flowing ride of powder, again this is what you have been looking for. Make everyday a powderday.

<o:p> </o:p>

RDY_2_Carve · December 5, 2008

So if you're dropping in on a Deuce, are you "Dropping a Deuce"?

:lurk:

Steez · December 5, 2008

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CR1394%7E1.TOD%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>  </style> Snowboards have dramatically less grip on the snow then skis,
<o>:p> </o>:p>

Have you been to the Gallery section here on Bomber? I see no problem with grip, unless it's the tenuous grip on reality that some carvers may have. :biggthump

shawndoggy · December 5, 2008

So if you're dropping in on a Deuce, are you "Dropping a Deuce"?

I'm glad someone else made this crack cuz it's just a damn softball!

Todd, I watched the video and it sure looked like those boards skid a lot. Not much carving going on at all.

skategoat · December 5, 2008

Todd:

One small correction. The Swing-Bo did have metal edges. At least the one I had in my hands a few years ago. What I believe stopped the Swing-Bo from being more popular was the fact that it was extremely difficult to ride well. My friend, who still owns one, is an accomplished skier but says the Swing-Bo was like riding a bucking bronco. Very whippy, wild ride that would constantly throw him over the high side.

Regarding grip, it's a function of technique and ability and not equipment. I see just as many skidding skiers as I do snowboarders.

I wish you the best of luck but honestly, I can't see how it will succeed at a $2,000 price point. I realise the price will come down with volume but I don't see how you'll get any volume without dropping the price so that the board can be seen on the slopes. Ugly chicken and egg thing that usually kills new sporting toys before they ever have a chance to succeed.

*Ace* · December 5, 2008

Let me pose this question.

Why limit yourself to only 2 connected boards?

Why not 3, 4, or more?

shawndoggy · December 5, 2008

Let me pose this question.
Why limit yourself to only 2 connected boards?

Why not 3, 4, or more?

Prolly cuz it already weighs 15lbs without binders.

Mike T · December 5, 2008

Todd, I watched the video and it sure looked like those boards skid a lot. Not much carving going on at all.

That was my first reaction as well. The transitions are not clean, it looks like either the ride hasn't figured out how to make the device execute a crisp transition or the device is simply not capable of doing it.

toddbelt · December 5, 2008

I see several serious questions. Let me answer them to the best of my ability.

Shawndoggy: You commented that the it looks like the board skids a lot. I think what you are referring to are the intentional push outs to spill energy. As one goes downhill a rider/skier is gathering speed (energy), and that must be "spilled". The difference is that the classic snowboard inherently spills, and it takes a lot of training and concentration of the rider to make a classic board cleanly carve and not spill. Where the spilling is mostly seen/heard as scraping. In contrast, our DES inherently cleanly rides it's edge grooves, and the rider must actively spill energy when they have too much speed. Depending on ones perspective this is Awesome or not. Our DES hauls! The flip side of that is that the rider must be more conscientious to spill.

Skategoat: I stand corrected on the metal edges. I loosely recall being told by someone else that the original didn't have metal edges, which makes sense since many boards didn't at that time ('83-'84).

As for it being difficult I think that several of the issues I mentioned address that. But I will be honest with you. Our DES is a little challenging for new riders when they aren't moving. This is another one of those points where it is a pro or con depending on your perspective and preference. The classic snowboard wants to lay flat, and it actually fights being on edge. This allows a passive return to middle, but it comes at the cost of stress on the legs and a rough transition from edge-to-edge. Those are two problems that our DES does not have.

Price. Definitely one of the highest out there. In comparison to the numerous $1000-$2000 boards that aren't much more than a board, we feel our low production volume pricing still provides the highest value to our customers.

Ace: more than 2. :) We considered that. This configuration is the optimal solution.

Weight: How much does a typical racing board, bindings and hardboots system weigh? I think it is around 30 lbf, and the board is about 10 of those. So you are going from 30 to 34, roughly 10% more. Does anyone have good data?

Best regards,

Todd Belt

xxguitarist · December 6, 2008

Shawndoggy: You commented that the it looks like the board skids a lot. I think what you are referring to are the intentional push outs to spill energy. As one goes downhill a rider/skier is gathering speed (energy), and that must be "spilled". The difference is that the classic snowboard inherently spills, and it takes a lot of training and concentration of the rider to make a classic board cleanly carve and not spill. Where the spilling is mostly seen/heard as scraping. In contrast, our DES inherently cleanly rides it's edge grooves, and the rider must actively spill energy when they have too much speed. Depending on ones perspective this is Awesome or not. Our DES hauls! The flip side of that is that the rider must be more conscientious to spill.

The issue here, is that we aren't "classic snowboard" riders. True alpine hardboot boards will not skid any when ridden well, unless the rider specifically wants to. You ought to find a rider who will continuously carve, and also see if it will hold the edge well enough to allow the rider to roll onto the downhill edge, as that would show that there was no sideways movement. Some true carves would make the video much more persuasive. Take a look at the galleries on bomber, and browse through a few of these videos for what we consider to be a "carved" turn.

KingCrimson · December 6, 2008

I see several serious questions. Let me answer them to the best of my ability.
Shawndoggy: You commented that the it looks like the board skids a lot. I think what you are referring to are the intentional push outs to spill energy. As one goes downhill a rider/skier is gathering speed (energy), and that must be "spilled". The difference is that the classic snowboard inherently spills, and it takes a lot of training and concentration of the rider to make a classic board cleanly carve and not spill. Where the spilling is mostly seen/heard as scraping. In contrast, our DES inherently cleanly rides it's edge grooves, and the rider must actively spill energy when they have too much speed. Depending on ones perspective this is Awesome or not. Our DES hauls! The flip side of that is that the rider must be more conscientious to spill.

Skategoat: I stand corrected on the metal edges. I loosely recall being told by someone else that the original didn't have metal edges, which makes sense since many boards didn't at that time ('83-'84).

As for it being difficult I think that several of the issues I mentioned address that. But I will be honest with you. Our DES is a little challenging for new riders when they aren't moving. This is another one of those points where it is a pro or con depending on your perspective and preference. The classic snowboard wants to lay flat, and it actually fights being on edge. This allows a passive return to middle, but it comes at the cost of stress on the legs and a rough transition from edge-to-edge. Those are two problems that our DES does not have.

Price. Definitely one of the highest out there. In comparison to the numerous $1000-$2000 boards that aren't much more than a board, we feel our low production volume pricing still provides the highest value to our customers.

Ace: more than 2. :) We considered that. This configuration is the optimal solution.

Weight: How much does a typical racing board, bindings and hardboots system weigh? I think it is around 30 lbf, and the board is about 10 of those. So you are going from 30 to 34, roughly 10% more. Does anyone have good data?

Best regards,

Todd Belt

My Speed 160 weighs less than 10 pounds for sure, my bindings are a pound a piece. Boots..no clue.

On an alpine board, that "spill" is pointing back up hill. A lot more satisfying and graceful than skidding. Skidding is boring.

DiveBomber · December 6, 2008

Guess you had to know you were going to get flack for wier...Uh "unique" product.

15lbs? for a 160 length!

Look how high the rider is from the board... wasnt there a recent discussion on binding height, and how the higher you are the less leverage you have?

So how can you pressure the edge on this thing?? answer..You can't, atleast not untill you get it up high enough where your on one edge anyway(if thats possible), at which point... whats the point?

also double edges... Um skiers dont use their edges paralle to each other, they cant evenly pressure both skis in a turn, but for a split second.

PS I dont think id ride it in hardboots, less you like your tib/fib

b0ardski · December 6, 2008

The low range of motion inherent in a device of this type is what killed the swing-bo not a lack of salesmanship, i.e. marketing.

I was a good skier when I demoed the swing-bo in '87. Admittedly I was a novice snow boarder at that time.

Trying to carve a turn elevated that far above the contact edge is tricky. I would love to give this thing a try but the hyarc is more in my price range. I could buy 2 high end customs & td3s and fintecs for $2000

It is extremely difficult to keep a pair of skis absolutely parallel on anything less than hero snow (powder or groom), this configuration does that for you whether you want it or not. When you don't want absolute parallel, tough $hit.

I would love to have a pair of Donek twintip shorty skis but it would have to be with independent foot action, as in snow blade bindings.

P.S. I monoski also.

KingCrimson · December 6, 2008

how the higher you are the less leverage you have?

More leverage. But it gets to the point where you're high enough off the thing it's unstable.

Hotbeans · December 6, 2008

" What is known about this shift so far is that it is characterized by older snowboarders leaving for twin-tip freeskiing, and younger than 17 new entrants favoring skiing. Before we had this data, we had designed the DES expecting this shift to happen. We expected this shift because we identified a significant gear deficiency of the snowboard in comparison to skis. Snowboards have dramatically less grip on the snow then skis, and grip is a fundamental parameter of the gear, possibly THE fundamental parameter. We can confidently tell you that our DES has fixed that problem."

..I detect an incongruity. You've made an assumption that those of us in this somewhat "niche" sport are looking for a board that holds it's edge better than what's out there. Most, if not all, of the discussion here is related to refining technique and ride quality. If you consider traditional snowboarders, then the demographic you've researched ("younger than 17") are generally in it for the freestyle and to a lesser extent, freeriding. Freestyle typically calls for de-tuning, freeriding evolves towards powder days being the preferred medium..edge hold isn't a big issue. I suspect the move towards skiing that your data suggests is happening is either due to the opinion that snowboarding carries a greater risk of injury and, (for some, not me thou..) with age comes a greater sense of vulnerability, or, (I've heard this a lot..) parents starting their kids out on ski's because the parents feel the youngsters might just miss out on all the fun if they just go ahead and go for the crack pipe right away..

That'd sum up my beer's worth of thinking..

Jon Dahl · December 6, 2008

P.S. I monoski also.

Do PM me about this...

NateW · December 6, 2008

As for it being difficult I think that several of the issues I mentioned address that. But I will be honest with you. Our DES is a little challenging for new riders when they aren't moving. [...] The classic snowboard wants to lay flat, and it actually fights being on edge. This allows a passive return to middle, but [...]

So, I'm guessing that there's an issue with this thing not wanting to lay flat? In other words, if you relax your angles it wants to tilt all the way to one side or the other? Have you tried moving the pivot points on the center piece up a few inches, so they're positioned up around the rider's ankles?

Jack M · December 6, 2008

Where do the numbers for the interesting factoid about snowboarding now losing growth to skiing come from? NSAA? I wouldn't be too surprised, typical softboot snowboarders don't do the sport any favors sideslipping a whole trail.

The weight is going to be a problem. A snowboard deck might weigh 5 pounds.

So is the price. There is no "market" for a $2000 board. Yes, you can spend $2000 on a custom snowboard, but it is going to be hand made of unobtanium and you are either very rich or stupid, or you are going to ride it to an FIS World Cup podium. $1000 currently buys the best real-world boards.

So how can you pressure the edge on this thing?? answer..You can't,

sure you can. don't say "can't" until you've ridden one.

also double edges... Um skiers dont use their edges paralle to each other, they cant evenly pressure both skis in a turn, but for a split second

expert skiers can and do pressure both skis. One of the best skiers I've ever seen could leave perfect train-tracks all the way down the hill.

Dan · December 6, 2008

Todd, I think you <b>really</b> need to check out those videos posted above and check out some <a href="http://jmphotocraft.smugmug.com/gallery/4484815_z4Kur#263826338_p4SW7">photos</a> to get an idea of where we're coming from. (or at least, where the better riders on the board are coming from :) )

I'd need to see the Deuce being used like that to be persuaded of its carving prowess. The riding that's on display in the video on your web site could have been done on a snow skate -- it doesn't really show anything, and the same goes for the still photos on your site.

You'd get a lot of credibility here if you showed up at an expression session (i.e., carvers' gathering) and did some demos with a Deuce. We all speak the same language, so if some of the more seasoned riders here rode and reviewed the Deuce, it would carry a lot of weight.

KingCrimson · December 6, 2008

I don't see this working for snowboarding, but your engineering skills(it may not be a useful or a great product, or an improvement to regular snowboards) could definitely be redirected towards sit-skiers. Perhaps even the Deuce would work for sit-skiers. As for any alpine snowboarders buying it.. I'll stick with my 75 dollar bindings, and my 75 dollar board. Foldy nose, chattery behavior, and soft edges. All of them, I'll keep.

NateW · December 6, 2008

Perhaps even the Deuce would work for sit-skiers.

Todd, have you looked into using this for 'adaptive' programs for handicapped folks?

It's a really interesting idea. I've never had a go at a sit-ski (and I'm hoping I never need to...) but my intuition says this could be a really good fit. I still think that a conventional sit-ski would be better for aggressive riders, but it seems like the turn-by-leaning mechanism would work really well for entry-level folks, or people who need lots of assistance. Especially if some springs were added to help it self-center.

Hotbeans · December 6, 2008

I'm with Nate here. I picture this being hugely successful as a sit/ski... especially for those who have lost functionality in their legs. I do see a monoski version available now, but I also see where your product improves on this. Widen the base a bit, add an adjustable suspension pivot and you could get skiers with disabilities back on the slopes.

You've already partnered with some high quality suppliers and have the ability to produce a great looking product, get one of these into the hands of an Iraqi vet who lost his/her legs and you could get the momentum you need. I'm sure there are more than a few who would jump at the chance to rip on one of these.

Hotbeans · December 6, 2008

...oh, and also then it could be a "medical device" and you could charge $5000! It's a winner all around!

Deuce Dual Edge Snowboard

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