To stepin or not to stepin...

[Chris Karol]

I remember being one of the instructors for a camp you put on at Vail years ago.

Yeah you coached that camp with Megan right?

Boardski, I don't actually own a pair of Nitro plate SI's. Just tried them once.

Jack, I used to be one of those racers except I rode flat/flat, because I couldn't deal with the wedge. Racers tend to be the most stubborn, superstitious lot when it comes to equipment. I used to think blaming my equipment was a sign of weakness, aka; the "shut up and ride" mentality. I thought snowboarding was supposed to be painful:smashfrea

I know better now..

[LeGogoussier]

... I'm considering getting a pair of flows, but is it step in ? Not sure since you have to reach the back of the binding to lock them. Nils

Do Flow and K2 Cinch bindings qualify as "Step-ins"?

Flows are real step-ins: one can easily reach down and lock the highback while gliding away from the lift. Gotta be careful though, because the latch sometimes catches your glove so you find yourself locked in a crouched position, head down, with one arm in your back. Not a safe way to ride.

About the Flows: My NXT-FX'es are stable and responsive but they kept disintegrating (daily) until I replaced each bolt/nut/washer with real-world sturdy self-locking hardware and fabricated aluminum side plates to replace the original brittle plastic contraptions. Since then it's been A-OK.

I have a set of Catek FR2 Pro Ltd on order. I may end up combining the two pairs into a set of Frankenstein Catek FR2 step-ins !!!

[BadBrad]

Jack, can you explain this modern cant and lift that you speak of? What sort of cant & lift do you recommend, and how do I set myself up properly?

[NateW]

It's not need, just what I like.

What is wrong with more flex (burton race plates) than the TD2 setup provides? Or am I wrong thinking (assuming) the burtons provide more flex?

My Burtons flexed because they were flimsy. They eventually wouldn't hold my feet in anymore.

Also note that my Raichle 324s flexed a lot even when used in step-in bindings. All of the flex just came from the shell of the boot. I don't think that step-ins really take away much flex. Also, if the bail setup is allowing flex, I would be very worried about that flex/slop/freedom-of-movement turning into an unexpected boot release.

324s are pretty soft, and I really liked the flex they provided. When received my UPZs, which are very stiff by comparison, I was worried. But they fit better, so I stuck with them, and tinkered with cant and stance width a bit, and now I find that I really like the stiffness. I still have enough flex to ride everything with no problem, but I have extra support, and the extra support makes everything easier.

I can't guarantee that that will be true for anyone else, but for me the extra stiffness turned out to be a good thing.

[Jack M]

Jack, can you explain this modern cant and lift that you speak of? What sort of cant & lift do you recommend, and how do I set myself up properly?

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/canting.cfm

[b0ardski]

stepin means you stepin; nothing else to do, no bending over, no getting your glove pinched in the binding, no wiggling the inner boot in the outer shell to make it feel right.

the last time I "stepped in to" a ski binding that I had to reach down and latch the heel was the salomon 404s I had in 1974. thats not "stepin".

stepout is a whole other matter, some action must be taken to stepout of the binding. You may think I'm splitting hairs, but I believe convenience matters.

[Flip]

I can appreciate the quick entry off of the lift, but what about trying to step-in in deep powder. Has anyone had issues with getting a clean engagement in deep powder?

What about standard bail releases with the odd stresses of riding in the trees?

Also, I spend 60% of my time in the back country, so I am concerned that the step-ins will be too stiff. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

[Wun]

This is just speculation, but I figure that if you're in powder deep enough to make Intec engagement impossible, you're already at the point-of-no-return where the loss of momentum requires you to just disengage and take the .1 mi/hr walk of shame to get out of the powder as you would with any other setup.

If you're in knee-deep powder or anything shallower, I'd think that it's still possible to bend over and finger out all the snow.

Edit: Whoop.. only first part of your post registered, and I do notice now that I about half-missed the mark on reply.

[carvingchef]

I can appreciate the quick entry off of the lift, but what about trying to step-in in deep powder. Has anyone had issues with getting a clean engagement in deep powder?

I am guessing that if you are in "deep powder" regular bail engagement is probably just as difficult as step in

[bumpyride]

I can appreciate the quick entry off of the lift, but what about trying to step-in in deep powder. Has anyone had issues with getting a clean engagement in deep powder?

What about standard bail releases with the odd stresses of riding in the trees?

Also, I spend 60% of my time in the back country, so I am concerned that the step-ins will be too stiff. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

I find step-ins easier in powder simply because I don't have to hold my breath and you also have the extra space between the receiver and the binding itself. You also have a bit of snow on your heel and still pop in. Another factor is that you can lift the back of your board to provide the pressure to engage and not worry about the back of your board sliding deeper into powder.

As far as stiffness goes F2s with the plastic bases are not stiff in any way shape or form. See some of the other replies in this thread.

[Boarder_Ted]

Flows are real step-ins: one can easily reach down and lock the highback while gliding away from the lift. Gotta be careful though, because the latch sometimes catches your glove so you find yourself locked in a crouched position, head down, with one arm in your back. Not a safe way to ride.

About the Flows: My NXT-FX'es are stable and responsive but they kept disintegrating (daily) until I replaced each bolt/nut/washer with real-world sturdy self-locking hardware and fabricated aluminum side plates to replace the original brittle plastic contraptions. Since then it's been A-OK.

I have a set of Catek FR2 Pro Ltd on order. I may end up combining the two pairs into a set of Frankenstein Catek FR2 step-ins !!!

Do you mean something like this?

I have since replaced the highback with a pair from the Flow NXT's. Not as comfortable as the Burtons but I was getting too much flex with the plastic. If you can modify Flow side-pods, you can certainly make the Catek sides needed for the modification. I used 1/8" stainless steel.

Sorry about the thread hijack. :D

[Rob Stevens]

I can appreciate the quick entry off of the lift, but what about trying to step-in in deep powder. Has anyone had issues with getting a clean engagement in deep powder?

What about standard bail releases with the odd stresses of riding in the trees?

Also, I spend 60% of my time in the back country, so I am concerned that the step-ins will be too stiff. Any input would be greatly appreciated!

www.noboard.ca

For what it's worth, I tired all of them in the mid 90's and the only one that seemed to have any performance was the K2.

The others, that held the foot at the side, had sloppy response toe to heel. Maybe not out of the box, but after a few days, they felt played.

The K2, because of its attachment points under the toe and heel, held the sole down along its length. The side to side flex felt natural and much like how a boot would "roll" in a strap binding.

Once they came out with the external highback and the instep strap on the boot, it was a reasonable alternative I might have gone to, if not for the weight.

You could also step in on the chair before you unloaded. That is convenience.

As for putting on your bindings standing up, it should be the first thing beginners should be taught after straight running. Sitting on the snow is for the notknowing.

For you guys who want to step in because you're old, creaky and can't bend over anymore, go the Intec route. You'll like the hardboots better anyway.

[BlueB]

No step-ins for me on h/boots. I like riding with DIN soles so I can jump onto skis without changing the boots. Happened only once last year, so I'm starting to wonder if it is a valid reason. I think that I trust the bails more, though.

On s/boots I use Switch step-ins. Way quicker for teaching and no sitting on the snow.

Boot to binding interface feels rock solid - no movement at all.

[b0ardski]

I totally agree that a toe/heel attachment gives superior response over a mid foot connection. clickers failure comes from undersole mounting. Device were clearly better than clicker in that respect. If you can't beat'em, buy'em out.

Switch is more durable than burton with similar connection geometry.

Morrows three point proto type worked like the burton, but the connection pockets on the outside of the feet were at the toe&heel and all metal; again bought out.

The intec soft system & the osin/rossi system use a single "hinge pin" at the center of the foot, less toe/heel response than the burton or switch.

A toe/heel stepin binding plate can be made with stiff or soft flexing plates. the boots can be designed with several different flex patterns from race to park to powder to EC.

Unfortunatly, commonality does not equal profitability

[SEJ]

I have Burton Race standards, and Catek and TD step ins. I think I actually ride a little better in the Burtons, but the convenience of the SIs out weigh that. Frozen Intek heels just need to be filled with Bomber Butter so water can't get in and freeze. Packed snow on the heel is easily taken care of with the right stomp pad. The ones with the big spikes, stomp and twist, that's it. Always pull the back of the board up with your rear foot to make sure you're locked in before you start smoking. I love the things, just wish for a little more lateral flex.

[philw]

I use intecs all the time, but not for the reasons listed so I didn't vote. Convienience is irrelevant.

I like the solid connexion I can get with properly set up Intec bindings. I don't think it matters hugely where you get your flex, but I don't want it coming from the boot/ binding interface. Can you get that with traditional clips... certainly, but it's harder to achieve, in my experience.

In powder it's a no-brainer. I don't have to get out much, but if there's any unavoidable paddling to be done, I laugh it off whilst the softies are wallowing on their arses with those strappy things. I have to spend a lot of time talking to skiers whilst we watch the fashionable boarders trying to swim. Somehow that fashion gear doesn't look as good as it does in the brochure out there.

I'd like to think I've a better chance in a tree well, only having to reach my knee rather than my ankle. I hope I don't get to check that one out in anger though.

[Rob Stevens]

The one thing I really disliked about the Device binding was how big the heelcup had to be to house the latching mechanism.

Superbootout at fairly low edge angles.

The Clicker's mechs, under the boot made high edge carving possible with low angles.

Yes, the plate would get played out after a time, especially if you had long, gravel-filled walks to the lifts. Just like the SPD for biking, you had to keep your eye on the interface and swap the cleats when needed.

But, as I said before, the system is heavy, so carbon binders with stiff soled, stiff spoilered boots won out in the end.

[b0ardski]

the difference in heel cup size causing bootout is negligeble unless your eurocarving with sub 20 degree angles.

The attachment to the base of the highback frame means no need for a third strap, way more response than under foot connection, and doesn't clog with snow every other time I take my back foot out.

I like a solid, stiff flexing, stepin, boot/binding interface with a soft flexing boot and a board that suits the conditions.

[Boarder_Ted]

but I have to totally disagree. I had the Device step-ins for a season and I booted out all the time on a heelside turn. I ended up taking off the plastic cover over the mechanism and building my own lower profile version out of aluminum. Angles? I was running 30 degrees front, 25 back. Other than that, I found the bindings to be supportive and a very nice ride.

[Rob Stevens]

the difference in heel cup size causing bootout is negligeble unless your eurocarving with sub 20 degree angles.

or...

...at -5 in the rear.

...on hard STEEP slopes, like a cleared out avy chute.

...landing at 90 degrees, heelside and under-rotated in the pipe.

...just carving in soft packed conditions, with the snow running up against the heelcup.

It's amazing how low binding angle carving is improved by very low profile, or non-existant, heelcups.

As for your comment about eurocarving, I want to be one of the few (or only) people who can do this with FS / FR angles in softboots.

[b0ardski]

Mrs. b0ardski rode the device in the '90s, I only tried it a couple of times. I thought it was an easy to use solid connection. But I was just learning to lay over my turns after converting to plates in '91.

Softboot eurocarving should be easy on a wide enough board with a binder like the flow/catek combo, almost makes me want to use laces:eek:

NOT!!!

ps My knees/hips do not allow me to ride duck/gorilla stance. It hurts. My hats off to anyone who can layover carves in a duck stance:eek:

[Rob Stevens]

Softboot eurocarving should be easy on a wide enough board with a binder like the flow/catek combo, almost makes me want to use laces:eek:

NOT!!!

That franken-binding does look tech. Heavy, but tech.

[b0ardski]

bumped for nostagia,

and flowteks

[scrutton]

I rode K2 soft boot step-in's (clicker) system for two years, and while I loved the convenience, I never had the right combination of forward lean, no heel lift, and movement fore and aft available in the binding that a good highback binding system has. You can really crank down the straps on a good high back binding, and the high back on good bindings is incredibly stiff, and flat, so you still have fore/aft movement but plenty of response on heel edge. The Clicker system couldn't be tightened down enough to lock my heel down. The highback built into the boot wasn't as nice, as it didn't allow the movement that I like. I eventually switched back to Burton highback bindings, and started loving snowboarding again.

On hardboots, having been through failures with Burton and Rattrap bindings, once I found the Catek standard line, I've never found a need to try anything else. The newer hardboot step in systems do look very tasty though. Maybe one day, if I can demo a system, I might try it. I certainly wouldn't have the same complaints as the soft boot systems.

[Ian M]

+1 for the more flexible nature of bails. Combined with the yellow elastomers on my TD3's I really really like my bindings. Somehow they still feel incredibly precise.

Also I just like simple technology when possible.