To stepin or not to stepin...

[ursle]

If I were to buy a step-in, I'd only buy half a set to use on my rear boot.

Any goofy Intec riders out there that would like to split the cost on a pair of intec heels?

Geo

Yes

two birds in the bush are worth one in hand

I'm not goofy... I just put my more cooridnated foot in front

[Dr D]

K2 clickers DOA

Switch DOA

Drake DOA

Burton DOA

They all died because the people who buy snowboard equipment did not

want them...and that is Jakes fault.

switch still has extremely high demand with used boots in adult sizes going for 200 plus bones on ebay regularly. The better models are near impossible to find. I can name ten people here in backwoods montana that are always in the market for another pair no matter the cost.

[patmoore]

My softboot setup which I use rarely has the old Burton StepIns. It's a little tricky to lock in but then works fine. I'm with Dave Pushee - I turn 62 on Saturday and sitting in the snow isn't real high on my list of favorite things.

Having said that, I was using Burton Physic Stepins on my race board but decided to give them a rest for a season. I really do like the convenience of stepping in on the fly but they don't always release at the end of the run. I know I've posted this photo before I'll share it again. When the call of nature is really strong and the binding won't release, you have to improvise......

[carvingchef]

i think stiffness is relative to the rider's weight, i am 220 lbs on a good day and that's without wearing snowboard gear, i tried burton race plate standard bails and they felt flimsy under my feet, i tried TD1 and TD2 regular bails and step-in and i felt way more secure, safe and more responsive, now i use TD2 regular on front foot and step in on rear foot and i cant tell if one is stiffer than the other, maybe because i'm not experienced enough to be able to tell or maybe because at 220+ lbs it doesn't make any or that much difference

i guess what i'm saying is that the same binding could be stiff for somone and soft for someone else depending on their weight just like the same board could be too stiff or too soft depending on the rider weight

but i just love the convenience of step in

my 2 cents on the stiffness issue

[Dr D]

true enough but I am 275 and they feel stiff so preference plays a part as well.

[Kimo]

Man... when that salesman said this boot would fit just like a glove, he wasn't kidding!

[carvingchef]

true enough but I am 275 and they feel stiff so preference plays a part as well.

i like them stiff too and i wasn't saying that they aren't stiff, only that they might be too stiff for the lighter riders, but mainly that i don't find step in TD2 to be stiffer then regular bails TD2

[Jack M]

Dude,

Thanks for pointing out where that Burton propaganda comes from. Boardski hit the nail on the head, Burton's step-ins did suck. But then again, Burton never wanted step-in technology to succeed in the first place.

I guess I should have quoted the conversation more completely. It went more like this...

me: "hey (name), howcome you're not riding the step-ins?"

him: (purses lips, shakes head) "they s u c k."

This was shortly after Burton introduced their system. I only posted it because I found it to be humorous and ironic commentary from someone inside (a Burton engineer) who had a vested interest in liking the system. I wasn't trying to blanket the whole softboot step-in universe with that quote. Sorry if that's how it came out.

You may also know that I've personally invested years and lots of money developing SI systems that ride way better than anything on the market today. I still hold several patents on the technology. Needless to say I have a personal stake in the subject.

You might have mentioned that to me at SES 05, but it had slipped my mind.

So don't take it too personally Jack but please understand that I had to set the record straight, plus I know you're a stud and can handle the truth.

No worries at all. Hey, takes one to know one. ;)

[b0ardski]

Chris Karol, thanks.

I've suspected as much for many years, sure wish I could buy a '08 studebaker skyhawk:cool:

I have hundreds of days on Nitro stepins and have never been unable to release.

I have dozens of days on Intecs and have had trouble releasing several times.

I actually tried swapping the pin actuation cam between the intec heels and found that the plastic cam were the cable mounts flexed enough to prevent full retraction of the pins. Fin, are you listening? METAL

[JJFluff]

don't step in.

[b0ardski]

looking forward to trying the NTNs this year.

Even for old telewhackers, stepin convenience matters.

[Chris Karol]

K2 clickers DOA

Switch DOA

Drake DOA

Burton DOA

They all died because the people who buy snowboard equipment did not

want them...and that is Jakes fault.

"people who buy snowboard equipment"... Do you mean retailers or consumers?

Either way, I doubt Jake had much to do with it, He's got a large responsability to run his business and is justified in putting that as his first priority and letting his corporate officers do their jobs. You can't argue with the business logic but I will correct your DOA examples.

K2 Clicker - hardly DOA, Like 'em or not, they flooded the market made a ton of money for K2. Retailers couldn't keep them in stock.

Switch - Vans spent several million buying that company when Switch was at their peak. DOA? .. hardly

Drake - wasn't that Switch?

Burton -covered that already

... and you forgot to mention;

Rossi - still sells step-ins to the rental market but doesn't advertise them

Device - Purchased by Ride for $9 million - Hardly DOA

Airwalk - spent millions trying to come up with a good design but failed.

Marker - invested a ton of money but had wack looking moon boots and other technical issues.

Step-in could easily outperform straps if they were done correctly but don't expect the innovation to come from Burton. I have respect for that company but I don't expect them to change the all time best selling binding design when the average snowboarder doesn't know any better and is perfectly happy with the current products.

Kinda reminds me of when skiers used to laugh at snowboarders because the skiers didn't know any better.. except now its the snowboarders at Burton who are laughing at the skiers who think their cool 'cause they ditched their planks, got some softboots and baggy pants and took up shredding. They'll buy whatever they're told to buy.

Most actual snowboarders couldn't be bothered having to change their equipment and will only buy whatever is absolutely necessary at the lowest possible cost, preferably free. As for me, I'm just old and my feet hurt from to many years of crappy boots and bindings.

AND BY THE WAY;

Jack I apologize for my earlier statements made at your expense. You had every reason to state what would otherwise be an innocuous quote. The mantra is unfortunately accurate in describing the state of the art with soft boot step-in's. Switch might not be bad but they could all be better. All things considered the sports a lot better than it was before we even HAD bindings. It's just sad to see innovation get halted in it's tracks by commercial interests.

Softbootsailer does bring up another issue which wasn't isn't mentioned on Wikepedia either, in that the lack of standardization between boots and bindings made SI a total pain in the ass for retailers. But obviously the question here is more about plate SI than softboot anyway. Intec has the closest thing to a "standard" which is probably why they're still around.

sooo.. moving on,

I used to need lateral flex (aka; binding slop) in my hardboot set-ups and found plate SI to be too unforgiving,... until i got my canting dailed in. With my stance and canting dailed, I can maintain a relatively flex free connection between my boots and bindings. (I used to ride clapped out Reactors with Burton race plates and swore by 'em). However, I feel my new set-up ultimately gives me more control and is way more positive and powerful. My boots have a soft flexing upper-cuff yet rigid sole and binding interface which rocks. I get all the power I need with no bloody stump syndrome.

That said, I'm still using toe-bails but want to try SI plates again.

[Chris Karol]

I found it to be humorous and ironic commentary from someone inside (a Burton engineer) who had a vested interest in liking the system.

.. exactly my point., you'd think he (and Burton), had a vested interest in liking the system, but it's exactly the opposite.

[Chris Karol]

I'm with you on that Boardski, That old Nitro system was foolproof and I never heard of one failing.

[b0ardski]

Coulda been a contenda:)

Ride bought device, K2 bought ride, device disapears, clicker wins.

ps will buy your unused nitro stepins

[Steve Prokopiw]

to all but Switch for soft stepins ; in my classes anyway.Chris,I respect your knowledge and I remember being one of the instructors for a camp you put on at Vail years ago.I don't disagree with anything you wrote here.But, when it comes to stepins for beginning students,most are a nightmare,and at those times I wish soft stepins would die,whether at Vail in dry snow or up here in wet snow.Switch are the only ones I would even remotely endorse from an instructor or performance perspective.I do remember the late Jeff Patterson ripping smooth carves on the Burton SI sytem though.Rossi are the worst of the worst;this I know as they rent them at Silver where I teach.I was reprimanded last year for being at my wit's end and escorting any student that showed up with them back to the shop to trade them in for straps.Despite the reprimand,and a note on my employee evaluation that I was not a team player, I continued with this personal policy through the end of the season.(Strangely,I was employee of the month in Feb.) As an instructor,I have learned to hate with a passion all but Switch during my career and would gladly choose straps for nearly all of my entry level students.I'm happy to drop to my knees to help them strap in if needed.

That said,I have made quite a few adult converts to hardbooting through their desire to have the convenience,comfort and performance of the Intec based systems I have been teaching on since they appeared on the market.Intec is not perfect though and it's short comings make me want to check out the F.A.S.T. system. This year however,I have pledged to teach some skiing so I will be using standard Cateks on days that I give carving lessons on both skis and board with skiboots.

I'm even going to give softbooting a go for the first time since I ripped the sole off my DC boot at freestyle accred in 04(after which examiner Greg Davis let me go back to hardboots for the last two days of it) To get back into softbooting I bought Nidecker Carbon 900 bindings and 32 Lashed boots.I mention this because soft stepins did not even enter my mind as an option.

I think all the opinions in this thread are valid,so this diatribe has been just that;my opinion.

[photodad2001]

Do Flow and K2 Cinch bindings qualify as "Step-ins"?

[NateW]

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this:

You need a relatively flat surface to "step in". I am often buckling in on a hillside where if I don't sit down the board slides out from under me, this would defeat the purpose of the Intec, right?

Also, I ride mainly in the NW where we enjoy mashed potato like snow. I have seen people with Intecs having problems with the heel piece packing full of snow. Is this a common problem? (people from Colorado need not respond to that one)

If I'm on a mild slope I'll just point down the fall line and step in. On a steeper slope I'll kick the board into the slope, step in, and hop-turn toward the fall line. Sometimes I fall on my butt instead but I'm pretty consistent about doing this gracefully now. :)

Snow pack is occasionally a problem. On days like that I use the intec receiver's "ears" to get snow off my boot, but sometimes it sticks to the bottom of the receiver and/or the top of the toe block. I've taken to keeping those surfaces lightly lubed with a VERY thin smearing of Bomber Butter (low-temp grease) and that works pretty well. Worst case, I pull the t-handle hex wrench out of my pocket (every Bomber rider should get one) and use it to chip ice off the binding. That's pretty rare though.

If possible (about half the lifts I ride) I just stick my toe in the bail while I'm on the lift, and then click in as I stand up from the chair.

And in all cases, hop/pull/wiggle my back foot to make sure I'm really in.

[NateW]

Man... when that salesman said this boot would fit just like a glove, he wasn't kidding!

:lol:

[NateW]

On bad day anything can happen, here was lucky day.

[busted heel frame]

:( I hate knowing there's something in my setup that might break before I do.

[b0ardski]

Do Flow and K2 Cinch bindings qualify as "Step-ins"?

Do you have to bend over and latch it by hand?????

[MUD]

I don't think this is valid anymore, with the advent of soft e-rings and the extra suspension kit.

I think if you still need more flex than that, something else is going on.

It's not need, just what I like.

What is wrong with more flex (burton race plates) than the TD2 setup provides? Or am I wrong thinking (assuming) the burtons provide more flex?

[Jack M]

I used to need lateral flex (aka; binding slop) in my hardboot set-ups and found plate SI to be too unforgiving,... until i got my canting dailed in. With my stance and canting dailed, I can maintain a relatively flex free connection between my boots and bindings. (I used to ride clapped out Reactors with Burton race plates and swore by 'em). However, I feel my new set-up ultimately gives me more control and is way more positive and powerful. My boots have a soft flexing upper-cuff yet rigid sole and binding interface which rocks. I get all the power I need with no bloody stump syndrome.

EXACTLY. I believe this is why many people don't like a more rigid boot/binding interface - their cant/lift is probably not optimized.

When you have your cant/lift dialed in, along with a proper stance width, you will have lots of lower body mobility. I haven't felt that feeling of being "locked in" or "bolted" to my board in years. My legs do what they want, I'm not fighting the equipment, and there is no wishy-washy delay in the transmission of input from me to the board.

I'll never forget the time there was a big high level race at Sugarloaf. There were a few hundred racers there, speedsuits and everything, and I was stunned that a vast majority of them were on race plates with the front foot flat and that humongous 7 degree Burton wedge under their back foot sloping only along the long axis of the board, forcing their back knee into the back of their front knee. And this was a few years after I had been shown the light of better bindings with modern lift and cant. Dumb.

That said, I'm still using toe-bails but want to try SI plates again.

I believe it is very possible to get close or equal to the rigidity of step-ins with standard bails. I always sized mine tight, and when I went to SI, I barely noticed a difference. "What's all the hubbub?" I thought. It sounds like you're probably there.

What is wrong with more flex (burton race plates) than the TD2 setup provides? Or am I wrong thinking (assuming) the burtons provide more flex?

Burtons have massively more flex. Ride Bombers or Cateks for a season, then try Burtons. I did this once and I felt like there were rubber bands holding me to the board. It was scary. What's wrong with that is that the flex is not engineered. You're simply using the elasticity of the one-size-fits-all metal bails in tension. After a while they will work-harden and fail without warning, or, one day you might simply exceed the elasticity and snap them. An engineered system like Bombers uses much stronger bails that are not intended to provide that elasticity. For that they use an elastic material in compression, which cannot fail.

[MUD]

Burtons have massively more flex. Ride Bombers or Cateks for a season, then try Burtons. I did this once and I felt like there were rubber bands holding me to the board. It was scary. What's wrong with that is that the flex is not engineered. You're simply using the elasticity of the one-size-fits-all metal bails in tension. After a while they will work-harden and fail without warning, or, one day you might simply exceed the elasticity and snap them. An engineered system like Bombers uses much stronger bails that are not intended to provide that elasticity. For that they use an elastic material in compression, which cannot fail.

Thanks for the reply Jack,

I am in the market for another set of bindings, I was thinking F2. I hear what you are saying about the burtons, but I like the flex. I had a pair of Catek world cups...... I hated them. I am assuming the TD2 setup is MUCH better.

[RCrobar]

Interesting discussion, interesting thoughts Jack.

IMHO I feel that a riders preferred riding technique and a riders overall size/weight will have a significant effect on his or her preference for TD2 standard vs TD2 step ins.

When I mention riding technique I am speaking to standard carving on a standard freecarve or almountain board with plates; NOT racing or ECing!

Just to play devils advocate, here is another very accomplished rider/builder's opinion on the TD2 standard vs TD2 step in discussion.

TD2 Standard

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=671&highlight=td2

TD2 Step In

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732&highlight=td2+step

Cheers

Rob