Burton FP's and Ultraprimes

[Jack M]

One thing I have noticed is that there are no "shops" that carry Donek, Prior, Virus, Coiler, etc. online. This doesn't allow for that wonderful thing that happens this time of year with skis and general snowboard equipment. 50% off sales!!!

This is the price of poker. Pay to play. Do you have any L or N glass? Same idea.

I've spent my whole life on equipment 1 year old or more for the purpose of buying higher grade at lower cost. I don't see that option with alpine boards. Buying used is my only way to participate.

You never will see that option. The people that are making the best boards do it because they love it, not to get rich. The prices you see keep the lights on and food in their children's tummies. Don't try to say that the price of Alpine is what is keeping our population low. There are dozens of factors before that one.

[softbootsurfer]

Nadia,

May I suggest you get one of the Burtons?

for I assume a good price.

Ride it for a couple seasons, because it should work just fine.

Then...

Buy one of these other $700 to $1000 boards for much cheaper

used in a couple seasons...

You can also stay soft and carve if you like!

Enjoy...

[photodad2001]

There are dozens of factors before that one.

Out of curiousity what do you think are the main reasons for lack of participation? Being new to this side of the boarding world I have an idea, as I've probably just recently had to overcome a few.

[RDY_2_Carve]

Four pages of nonsense....

Do you really think the OP read through all this? I personally would have bailed on this site after all this crapola.

I can't believe anybody would question Billy Bordy's skills. That's just insane. No wonder Billy doesn't visit BOL as often anymore. Come on people get a clue.

[Steve Prokopiw]

I agree with Jack on the food on the table.As an instructor/coach doing just that with my efforts, it bums me out when people much better off than I am financially want/expect me to spend large amounts of my free time to help them before and after multiple request lessons without thanks for doing so let alone a tip.For some reason my time is worth less than theirs...

As for boards being 50 percent off;it is possible slightly used;I got a coiler that was meticulously maintained for about that, at one year old.Many here maintain their equipment so well that it is indistinguishable from new in some cases.

[photodad2001]

http://startingate.com????

[John Gilmour]

Like I've always said.

Is last year's Mercedes such a bad car? Is a 3 year old Mercedes worse than a new Hyundai? Or a 10 year old Mercedes.

My Mercedes is 14 years old and still IMHO just about the best car you could ever buy. Was it custom- yes it was, was it more expensive, well not when I got it used- it was 4 years old as compared to another car. I've owned two. 1994 E500's and in terms of resale value and overall price it was a 90K+ car for 45K used that has lasted me for 10 years. And it will likely last me another 10-20 years making its operating costs more laughable as each year goes on. There is no way for instance I could have afforded to keep an Audi that costs 1/2 that on the road...I know.. I tried with my 1984 Audi 5000S wagon and 1981 Audi Coupe. And those Audis were far better in quality compared to what was out there at the time than a factory Prime. I did ....once ...owned a......errr......ugghhhhh Renault Alliance that I got for a "bargain" split with a roommate for $1150. That car.... cost me in so many ways. It was no bargain..even if given to me for free. I sold it for $1 (A friend begged me) and it brought misery to its former owners who totaled it almost immediately.

I think the Prime could also be considered A Renault Alliance as custom Renaults could do ok in racing in their day- and the regular ones on the road could get you to where you were going uncomfortably.

Buying a Madd from Bordy- "last years model" that's pretty funny when you think that we haven't changed the boards much since 1994. In fact the base isn't as good a in 1994. A perfect condition original Madd with brass inserts likely would fetch more than a newer used Madd in perfect condition with steel inserts.

Would I buy a newly re- produced 1994 Mercedes E500 made in 2006 for 20% off - hell ya!

Same thing with audio gear if it is top level or near that. I bought a Bryston 4b amplifier for $500 in 1981. Kept it for 22 years and later sold it for $2150.

What's a used factory prime worth...next year? Looks like you are better off burning it for the insurance.... $20 so far.

Do you want to go golfing with some of the worst golf clubs ever made? When a single day of greens fees at an average resort exceeds the cost of your clubs?

Even lifties who can't afford good boards and barely can afford the gas each day to their jobs ride better.

I'd like to offer to buy double carbon offsets if your video is breaking it in two using a car jack and quadruple carbon offsets if you make it into a usable bench that you have in your house with bolted through recycled padding attached (for once limited flex through is a good thing) as opposed to burning it- every factory prime off the snow.... for good.... IMHO is a step in the right direction.

[tex1230]

http://startingate.com????

sorry - .net

[Jack M]

Out of curiousity what do you think are the main reasons for lack of participation? Being new to this side of the boarding world I have an idea, as I've probably just recently had to overcome a few.

"Holy cow that's awesome! I'd never be able to do that."

"look how close he is to the ground - that's dangerous!"

Modern skis that can actually carve.

The marketing concept that you need a freestyle board even if 90% of your time is spent outside the park/pipe.

Misconceptions (uncomfortable, cold, difficult, only good for carving/racing) or stigma (uncool, skier-like) of hardboots.

"I carve fine on my softboots." (no, you don't)

"I don't want to be a beginner again"

Not enough days spent on the hill to justify a second setup.

Lack of mainstream exposure - the "is that a snowboard?" questions didn't start until Alpine was dropped from the Burton catalog.

Fear of change, complacency, acceptance/obliviousness of mediocrity.

The idea that the most important skills in snowboarding happen with the board off the ground.

People like being able to walk around in softboots - they would rather have comfort while walking than performance while riding.

Plain stupidity.

(mind you, I don't really have a problem with the size of our population. I'd just like to sustain it.)

[tex1230]

"Holy cow that's awesome! I'd never be able to do that."

"look how close he is to the ground - that's dangerous!"

Modern skis that can actually carve.

The marketing concept that you need a freestyle board even if 90% of your time is spent outside the park/pipe.

Misconceptions (uncomfortable, cold, difficult, only good for carving/racing) or stigma (uncool, skier-like) of hardboots.

"I carve fine on my softboots." (no, you don't)

"I don't want to be a beginner again"

Not enough days spent on the hill to justify a second setup.

Lack of mainstream exposure - the "is that a snowboard?" questions didn't start until Alpine was dropped from the Burton catalog.

Fear of change, complacency, acceptance/obliviousness of mediocrity.

The idea that the most important skills in snowboarding happen with the board off the ground.

People like being able to walk around in softboots - they would rather have comfort while walking than performance while riding.

Plain stupidity.

(mind you, I don't really have a problem with the size of our population. I'd just like to sustain it.)

You forgot one: difficulty of separating your knees when your steezy pants are down around your ankles

[Furi]

http://startingate.com????

Photodad -

it's this URL:

http://www.startingate.net/

[Jack M]

You forgot one: difficulty of separating your knees when your steezy pants are down around your ankles

I said "plain supidity", right?

[boarderboy]

Herewith, my third, and final, contribution to this post which, as others have noted, has been flogged mercilessly.

Money counts, BIG TIME! And, in the U.S., it's gonna count more in the future!

The board/ski thing is a matter of perspective, and the relative importance of riding to each individual. In an already hairline-crack, niche market, few participants are retirees. But the mass entry of 'Boomers (I am one) into retirement, or part-time employment, could present a real opportunity for hardbooting.

That will not happen, however, if the cost of tickets, transportation, lodging, and (to a lesser extent) good gear continues to skyrocket. And, for those of you in the alpine business, it will not happen if you continue to obsess only about the latest and greatest materials, manufacturing processes, and design regimens.

You can use the best-possible, most esoteric materials. You can CAD and field-test your fannies off. You can extract every last milligram of possible performance from the alpine vehicle, and guess what, most of us won't give a flying flip! And "us" will include most retirees, young to middle-aged parents, most college students, and anyone else who may simply want to try the sport out, or to adopt it as a pleasant, sometimes pursuit.

Few of us will, or could, become knuckle-dragging purists laying out perfect, flowing carves. Many of us don't have the time. A lot of us live too far from good vertical. A goodly number of us lack the requisite fitness and stamina. And a large, growing, population slice, simply won't have the money. We're paying off student loans. We're raising kids and paying mortgages. We're un or under-employed. We're warring with an obscenely expensive medical system. And we'll all pay more for energy for some time to come.

$1,000 for a board? For most of us, No Way! $300 bindings? Not likely! $500 boots? Ditto!! $200 rooms and $75.00 lift tix for spring ice-to-mush? When Hades freezes over!!! (Take that, IntraWest!)

There will always be a market for the high-end. But most of us won't buy it. We'll try the good stuff used at 30-50% off. We'll visit the smaller, less-expensive hills. We'll experiment with readily-available ski boots. We'll buy $160 easily-demoed Alps and 'Primes as long as we can. And many of us will wish for reasonably-priced, US-made gear for the five-days-a-year boarder. If that's not available, Asian knock-off product will do nicely if, and when, it appears.

For most of us it's simply about the fun. It's about snow, steel and P-Tex in fluff, mellow mountain-dancing, and contentment.

The current price tag can really prevent that.

Peace...

[Jack M]

http://www.donek.com/01_products/pilot.htm

[Rik Fromdahl]

what he said!

[Allee]

For most of us it's simply about the fun. It's about snow, steel and P-Tex in fluff, mellow mountain-dancing, and contentment.

"applause"

This weekend, as I ride the 1997 Hot Blast that Jim Callen rescued from the garbage pile in Aspen, I shall pay homage to you, and have fun at the same time.

[photodad2001]

"Holy cow that's awesome! I'd never be able to do that."

"look how close he is to the ground - that's dangerous!"

Modern skis that can actually carve.

The marketing concept that you need a freestyle board even if 90% of your time is spent outside the park/pipe.

Misconceptions (uncomfortable, cold, difficult, only good for carving/racing) or stigma (uncool, skier-like) of hardboots.

"I carve fine on my softboots." (no, you don't)

"I don't want to be a beginner again"

Not enough days spent on the hill to justify a second setup.

Lack of mainstream exposure - the "is that a snowboard?" questions didn't start until Alpine was dropped from the Burton catalog.

Fear of change, complacency, acceptance/obliviousness of mediocrity.

The idea that the most important skills in snowboarding happen with the board off the ground.

People like being able to walk around in softboots - they would rather have comfort while walking than performance while riding.

Plain stupidity.

(mind you, I don't really have a problem with the size of our population. I'd just like to sustain it.)

The Hardboot stigma of being skier-like I agree with, but as far as some of the others, those were my reasons FOR picking it up. Speed, getting low, challenge, trying something new, being unique, not "fitting in", getting out of a rut (and making one instead). I think the main 2 things are, and I know you don't agree but I'm attempting to get over these things right now and these are the issues I'm having trying to get into it. (I've had beaucoup help from here getting my first board and advice, thanks y'all)

One IS the cost of putting together board, boots, and bindings and along with that the difficulty of aquiring it compared to just walking into your local shop and piecing it together right there. Region may play into that as well. In the Midwest you won't find much selection even on the freestyle end. The second, and you are very right is Hardboots. (both the "image" of hard boots and the walking factor, but that's alpine)

[Helmut Karvlow]

You just have to pay to play..........thats why I work......to buy Madds, Coilers,TD2"s, ect. it's a choice we all have to make for ourselves.

just because I choose to spend thousands of $$$$$ on equiptment does NOT make me better than anyone else. it's my choice.

There now stop with the Burton thread !!!! it's making me sick

[Petrol]

Do you really think the OP read through all this? I personally would have bailed on this site after all this crapola.

I agree

I can't believe anybody would question Billy Bordy's skills. That's just insane. No wonder Billy doesn't visit BOL as often anymore. Come on people get a clue.

what is so wrong about someone who has never heard of another member who's opinion the question openly ask?

You have to remember that even though Billy is widely accepted as a credible & capable pro by many folks here, there are probably far more folks who may stumble upon the site looking for information who have never heard of him...

Not a cut against Billy at all. I'm just saying that y'all may not realize there are plenty of folks out there that have ridden hardboots for many, years, and never shared the hill with another hardbooter, let alone 'lived' deep enough in the hardbooting tribe to know who the 'players' in the sport are

[photodad2001]

Bomberonline.com

Nice deals on the Prior 4wd and ATV. See, Kirk and JohnBauer, $600. More isn't necessary... for the non-professional rider.

[KingCrimson]

The Hardboot stigma of being skier-like I agree with, but as far as some of the others, those were my reasons FOR picking it up.

That's why I've gotten into it.

I looked at myself, slipping sideways down a hill, whilst my dad blew by me under complete control..I said, out loud, "This makes no sense..I'm going to ski.."

Then my dad beat some sense into me telling me to set an edge and what not, but still..For the New England conditions down here, Alpine boards and Skis are the clear champions.

[big mario]

We'll buy $160 easily-demoed Alps and 'Primes as long as we can. And many of us will wish for reasonably-priced, US-made gear for the five-days-a-year boarder.

I bought 2 used boards off of the classifieds here a few years ago, a FCII Donek and a Rennetiger, both leaning the to higher end of the preformance spectrum, both 2 seasons old for about 175 each. You do not need to spend a fortune to get on newer technology from smaller manufacturers, leave the burton stuff to the resellers on ebay.

mario

[bobdea]

people have been selling generics IQs for less than $100 and there's no problem with them.

$150 speedsters? **** yeah!

WANT A NEW SPEEDSTER?

can be had for 300ish, **** I think the house has a couple of the smallest speedsters still for 250 brand spanking new and they are better than a prime any day.

Money does count and my point was in my first post was to get something that unlike a burton does not have the specific burton issues.

Because it's what YOU have does not mean it's good.

ohh man I've had some POS boards let me tell you.......

as far as being easier to ride goes the absolute most user friendly boards I've been have all been from the small builders, among them Coiler AM, Donek axxess, prior WCR metal.

All of those in appropriate sizes are far easier to turn than burton alpine rides AND you can actually lay into them without them snapping in soft snow or just folding and launching you.

[BobD]

But you can have a lot of fun on a Burton deck. The Speed 164 is one of my favorite boards. Short enough to feel comfortable on a crowded day, but with a big enough sidecut (11.9M) to get some down time in the turns.

<embed src="http://blip.tv/play/Aa+7ewA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="640" height="510" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed>

BobD

[John Gilmour]

New gear is not overpriced. Haven't you noticed skis these days retail for over a grand? Nobody's saying you can't have fun on cheap gear. But I guarantee you, if you take a run on your old ride and then demo a new Coiler, Donek, Prior, Madd, etc, you <i>will</i> open your checkbook unconditionally and not even care what number you are asked to put in the box. Assuming your skills allow you to realize the benefits of the new tech.

Anyone else, don't embarrass yourself by questioning Bordy's skills/experience/knowledge. One of the best I've seen.

http://www.sterlingskis.com/order.html

I saw these- actually really nice with clean flex.

Now go and complain about having to spend more than $100 for a unridden snowboard.

Look- if the budget isn't right... for anyone here... I suggest getting into slalom skateboarding... It is really the same fun factor.

You can have the skateboard for 30 years and it isn't outdated- and it is good for transportation and moving furniture. You will develop the same muscle groups- meet people that are super cool- and there are races everywhere now. No lift ticket cost- and there is tons of inexpensive used gear around. Also you can ride with real pros at every contest- and they will all be super cool to you.

Also I would rather wipe out 30 times on pavement with pads than one big biff on snowboard at high speed. You can really mess up your knees, wrists shoulders head on a snowboard. Wear your gear skateboarding and if you aren't going full on top pro speeds you might hurt your pride if you fall- or get minor road rash on your back or calfs if you are lazy when you fall.

BTW the Generics boards are good for beginners- I forgot about them- worth getting. Easy flexing and predictable.

Nadia- snag that for cheap you'll like it.