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Reality Check - attention real carvers


GremUSA

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Hi Everybody, new guy here please offer your advice.

My background - I'm 45, 5'10" 180#, former athlete (inline speedskater, but sedentary for about the last 4 years).

I spend a coupla weeks each year on the mountain - a week at Copper around Jan and one at Snowmass in March. For 10 years or so I've been doing this and having a great time skidding all over these mountains in much of the terrain - blues and some blacks, powder and trees and I do pretty well and skid agressively.

Watching from the lift I've always seen a boarder here and there get up on edge and knew that's THE way and recently I discovered this community and a newer (to me), refined world of technique and excitement ala carving.

As I've read about carving I see a high level of technique, strength and development required.

I already purchased a high end board and am looking into the rest of the wares and I have the $pendulicas to do so.

My question though: Can I expect to achieve any kind of carve technique in the short time I'm doing this each season? I've been reading where even experienced carvers can spend a week just getting the muscle coordination back as it seems the technique can be quite unnatural and here I am not even posessing the ability and hope to in a couple short trips. Plus I'm not in any high level of cardio or strength.

I'm not throwing in the towel before I start I just want the advice of everyone; a reality check to know if I don't stand a chance and should go back to enjoying skidding around (and still watch you guys from the lift),,,or do I have a ghost of a chance of making any kind of carve progress.

Otherwise it really doesn't make sense to continue to lay down the coin.

The other side OF the coin is maybe there's an intermediary setup - can I carve quicker and faster on a softer setup like a 4WD and 123 boots....Seee I kinda tend to think, 'all or nuthin' baby' (I already bought the stiff race board -- F2 speed :o ) - like the stiffer setup forces you to have better technique. When I raced on skates I always trained on a long track boot which improved my ankle modality/technique and I'm converting this thinking to the board in terms of the best equipment can help you to be the best in that field.

Anyhoo, your thoughts por favor,

Thank you all ahead for any advice and thanks Michelle for talking to me about some of the equipment.

on the edge in Indiana ;)

Greg

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Hey Grem, I didn't start snowboarding until I was 40. Once I got over the learning curve of planting the back of my head into the snow, I quickly got bored of all the skidding around. So I discovered alpine after only 1 season on soft boots. I picked up a 4WD and Raichle boots and had a good time learning. I didn't find the learning curve any steeper than skiing or soft boot snowboarding.

One you get semi-competent, it is hard to break through to advanced carving mainly because there's no instruction and very few examples to watch and learn from (other than on the net). After two full seasons, I'm still struggling with controlling speed and making fuller carves. That being the case, I'll still never go back to soft boots for groomed trails. I had a couple of moments of second guessing where I went back out on soft boots. That was when I realized how much more precise and enjoyable hard boots were, even if I'm not a pro.

Since you're a snowboarder and athletic, you're not going to have a problem. You'll have a blast with it.

Just one piece of advice - don't get too caught up in getting low. It's a newbie mistake because of the Eurocarve and other videos on the net. It's a trap. If you try to do it, your centre of gravity gets too far out over your edge resulting in falls, less power and tail wash-out as you come out of your turn.

Good luck.

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One more thing - you'll find yourself forever tinkering with your setup and equipment trying to find the magic formula. I started out emulating the setup of the Extreme Carving boys with my 4WD. Then I realized there really isn't the snow or the room on the Eastern resorts for that sort of riding so I'm now into more of a cross-through technique and with higher binding angles and narrower, shorter boards.

Just try riding your current equipment and then acquire or borrow new stuff to see what you like and dislike.

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In my case, I did learn how to carve in under a week.(But not very well!!! :freak3: It took me a lot longer to get proficient, mostly self taught.) However, I came from an extensive skiing background, and already knew how to carve on snow. But it sounds like you are already moving around on snow quite well, so you won't have the problem I did of figuring out how to snowboard first.

That said, you should be able to figure it out if you read all the articles you can find on technique, etc (Most of which are in the welcome center HERE ). Watching a lot of carving vids found on the web helped me too.

Don't let others put you down about your first carving board choice: My first board was a Volkl RennTiger SL. Did a race board hinder my progress? Maybe. Did a race board force me to learn proper technique? I'd like to think so. There's other stuff that may be easier to learn on, but once you figure it out, people on the chairlift will be pointing at and admiring your carving sklls!

Regardless of how fast you pick it up, the idea is to have fun! :biggthump

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Nah, experienced carvers only need a run or two to get back within 95% of their game at the beginning of each season.

F2 Speedsters do have long sidecuts, so they need to be ridden faster than most other boards of the same length. (Volkls have shorter sidecuts) As a beginner it would probably be ideal to start on something more like a freecarve deck. But feel free to try it out and if it feels like the damn thing just doesn't want to come around, then the classifieds here will scoop it up in no time - F2s are popular.

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Reality - check.

I used my 1991 Burton Air (obviously not a carving machine) to carve, so don't get too into the equipment issues. If you look at the amount of time some of the guys on Bomber have been doing it, I'm pretty sure that some of them could carve a wooden plank if they wanted.

Honestly whatever you are skidding on can be carved. Just put it up on edge and play around with it. As Jack said the stiff boards need speed to perform properly. This is where the problem with learning comes in as most new carvers are not ready to bomb the hill with enough speed to make the board work well.

So depending on your situation it might be nice to take the old softie setup and do a few runs just practicing how to get it up on edge and what that feels like. What is going to happen is that at some point your board is going to "hook up" and you'll think you're on a roller coaster. Once you get that feeling and you can manipulate it a bit by getting in and out of the carve when you want to, it's time to break out the hard setup.

Do a search for some of the posts about training or technique and you will find some good pointers to help you start well and not develop bad habits.

As far as your fitness level, that is between you and your gut. You will be able to carve without an olympian's body :D .

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Grem,

I'm in a similar situation-not a whole lot of time each year on the snow. I don't think my technique is that good, but I look at my riding as a work-in-progress with a lifetime completion timeframe. Most of the people posting here have many years snowboarding. Some have many more years skiing prior to riding. I just stated at age 39 and now I'm going on 42. I also skiied for the first time last year, believe it or not, I'm having a hard time getting off the lift facefirst. The most important thing is that 1. you're riding and 2. you've realized the equipment, mainly the boots, in freestyle snowboarding sometimes leaves a lot to be desired.

As for board choice, I realize now my first board was probably not the best to start out with, but that's what quiver formation is for :1luvu:

See ya on the slopes, dood

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I think you should try, buy, ride whatever interests you. You're going to end up buying more stuff anyway. I don't think you will have any problem carving. It will end up being a choice of what style of riding and type of equipment you prefer. You have to start somewhere.

Daneille

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I agree with Kamran on the carving buddy. Post when and where you will be carving or showup at an expression session. Oh, get some gorilla-legs for those inspired sessions with the CO locals.

I started at 48 thinking that my athletic background was an advantage, but it was carving with the locals that made everything come together. Don't worry about being a newbie, nobody has ever trashed me for clowning...and that is what I do best.

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1. have fun

2. nobody gets hurt

I've watched many competitor types drive themselves crazy to be "better" rather than have fun. In that drive they get hurt and then benched. I'm 50 and fully plan to be riding til 80, God willing. I've flow hang gliders in the Owen's Valley at 17,000 ft. was certified scuba in highschool, did 2,000 mile solo bicycle tour, parachute jumps. My mantra has always been be smart, have a way out, have fun, repeat.

best wishes from a fellow midwesterner and new carver

Brad

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Cheers and ta very much everyone the advice and encouragement is inspiring and frankly what I expected from the kin in this forum. I should also mention that I skiied for over 30 years before forever switching to a plank.

Keep it coming.

PS, I'll be in Copper with my skid buds Jan 20-26 look for us apre' skid at the bar at the foot of the hill,,,maybe me borrowing the acoustic from the entertainment like I did last year :)

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I learned on a long racing board and picked it up pretty quickly, I think mainly from carving for 3 or 4 seasons with already a very forward stance. The racing board needs wide slopes with nobody around, and as long as you have that it's very rewarding and quick to learn. Longer boards usually have bigger sweet spots, so it will force you to commit to turns which is good, but you don't have to have the perfect pressuring along the edge which is good to learn. You'll feel when you have it not so good, but the board won't punish you.

If I hadn't carved on softies before that with a forward stance, it would have been difficult I think. I remember it only took me about 10 turns to get comfortable with the stance, and stop really counter rotating to slide the board around, then the next few runs were a complete blast as there is sooo much edge grip and control, as long as you keep your speed up.

Looking back I probably should have learned on something like a Prior ATV

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Guest astan100

I just started last season with the exact same questions/worries you had.

I decided to go with a less hardcore board than you- a donek axis.

I can honestly say that after just a few times on the new board, I was already beginning to do some real carving. I started using all soft equipment and just putting crazy angles on my bindings...like 40/30...with soft boots and never having done that...man was it awkward.

Then I took out the alpine board with softies, and finally went to the hardboots too. The boots really made the diffence...but I noticed that my muslces were NOT prepared at all. I went about 16 times that season prior to putting on the hard boots, but totally new muscles were sore. Very weird.

I highly recommend any kind of random leg work out you can think of to prepare. mayeb I'm just a wuss though...who knows.

Overall though, you'll learn on your new board...I wouldn't worry about the frequency. You've come to the right place to fine tune the learning in any case. I've learned a lot just stalking these forums.

Good luck this year.

-Allen

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Grem

I have been boarding since 92 years. I rode softboots until I torn my ACL in 98-99 and stayed off the board 02-03 year again on softboots. Finally took up alpine 03-04. First couple of time couldnt get it until I played around with my stance and found what I like. Also read "The Norm" that is posted here and that help me alot. I am 35 slightly overweight and other then snowboarding and hackey sack never played any sports. Give it a go you will get it. Maybe not on the first time but you will get it. As for the equipment I started on a speed 160 and outgrew that in the first year going to a fp157 and fp167 this year.

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Get with the guys that know. Most important. Meet some of the helpfull guys on the mountain. They can get you pure carving in short order if you can listen and apply quickly, with your inline experience you know how to carve. Let the board do the work.

A while back , someone posted the best summation of this situation. It is like serving an apprenticeship. Find a "Journeyman Carver" and follow his lead. Keep in mind there are at least 5 different styles of carving. Please don't expect to be doing EC style on rough ice your first season. Read the board, search the board, start slow, start on the "Buttercup" run first thing , have fun.

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I agree with Byran. I started carveing last season and served an apprenticeship with several bol riders, and I have come along way from those first tenative turns on a 159 Rossi. I am on a 179 donek now, and i am looking foward to another fun season.

more turns

mario

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Yeah, Reality Check. Remember the guy who was selling off all his gear because after 10 days he hadn't learned to carve? Everybody said stick with it. Ten days is a significant portion of many people's available days on the mountain.

If I'm not linking carved turns in 10 days, screw it. It took me one day to learn how to ride a board; I'm not spending ten times that long just to learn how to carve one.

BTW, the available written riding tips mostly stink. (That's my professional opinion as an unemployed technical writer.) We really need a good instructor to make a DVD. Just watching a few seconds of online video seems more helpful than paragraphs of text. Just imagine a professional instructor narrating that video.

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What Bryan said - hook up with better riders, watch, listen, and learn. In fact, Bryan is one of several excellent riders at Mt Hood and Bachelor whose tutelege has benefited me greatly.

Thanks Mike for the kind words.

GremUSA.

There are some good sources and most of them are somehow linked here or are in some way associated. Keep in mind that everyone has their own style and background that will affect their recommendations. Try to be open minded and patient. Some things will almost always be true.

Get with a "Journeyman Rider" if at all possible (most alpine riders are quick to share their passion of the sport"

Try the gear on long before you get the mountain. (no surprises at mountain"

(your living room carpet is a good start)

Follow what makes sense to you, what feels right.

Be moderate , start at the beginner hill even if you can ride anything on the mountain.

Know that most riders are "Freaked Out" the first few runs , even if they don't admit it. Alpine is relatively stiff and unforgiving of being "sloppy".

Expect that you are going to be rewarded for your efforts by the most incredible experience of your snowboarding life once you get the "Carve" down.

You have friends in the alpine world , almost anywhere you go. Look around.

Good luck!!! Seek and your teacher will appear. Bryan

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Yeah, Reality Check. Remember the guy who was selling off all his gear because after 10 days he hadn't learned to carve? Everybody said stick with it. Ten days is a significant portion of many people's available days on the mountain.

If I'm not linking carved turns in 10 days, screw it. It took me one day to learn how to ride a board; I'm not spending ten times that long just to learn how to carve one.

BTW, the available written riding tips mostly stink. (That's my professional opinion as an unemployed technical writer.) We really need a good instructor to make a DVD. Just watching a few seconds of online video seems more helpful than paragraphs of text. Just imagine a professional instructor narrating that video.

So , asking the obvious, are you "that" guy??

That would be a shame. As you pointed out , the alpine community could certainly use a technical writer to help put in text what we all are more than happy to share. Jack M and Steve F come to mind as some pretty darn good writers. If you have bailed , we , as community should make an effort to get you back in the quest. BOL has done allot to provide help. Keep in mind it can be tricky to offer advice on line. Keep the faith carving is real and it is worth the effort. I wish you luck. Bryan

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Follow what makes sense to you, what feels right.

bam.

use some logic, visualization, and analytical skills. just like with anything...in the initial stages you want to be conscious of your body positioning.

also, personally I think economy of motion is the best policy when carving. sure, there are dudes that flap their arms, bounce all over, etc, but me personally...I like to be as still as possible

heh. "static" some will call me, so Im probably not the best example, but...the less you move extraneously, the more you can focus on proper, minimal motion

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If I'm not linking carved turns in 10 days, screw it. It took me one day to learn how to ride a board; I'm not spending ten times that long just to learn how to carve one.

some would argue youre not properly riding a board if youre not carving it

;)

wait...Im confused...are you saying you said screw it? you werent the guy selling all his gear!

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and if you are considering any sort of conditioning, think about flexibility. i suspect that having pliable muscles will save your hide more readily than just strength and cardio. alpine boarding is a marriage of power and grace. power is useless without "grace." and "grace" gets to be a lot more fun with power.

also, make sure you can stop. i am not ashamed to acknowledge that i will skid turns under the chairlift on crowded days (you know, super tight turns that run the width of the chair on a 173cm deck, and i'm a sissy). don't get caught up in only carving. a true kook can't control the board.

sorry folks, i am just really really suffering from this warm weather.

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If the hard boot thing is appealing, then go for it.

Which F2 did you get? The Silberpfeil seem like reasonable boards for starting out, especially the 162.

If your F2 doesn't want to turn (did you get an RS?), I don't suggest selling it right away. You may grow into it soon enough to regret selling it. I think it will be easier to learn on something with a shorter sidecut radius though, as Jack said. Like 9-10m or so. It will turn tighter at lower speeds, so it will be easier to learn the technique. Get comfortable on it, and if you feel like the handling sucks at higher speeds, go back to the F2. If you like the other board and are happy with the way it drives, then sell the F2.

I wouldn't say that a stiffer setup forces better technique, but I would say that a larger sidecut strongly encourages higher speeds. I got comfortable carving hard on boards with a 10m radius, then got one with a 13m radius, and felt like when I leaned into the turns it just wanted to go straight. It took me a couple days to get used to the idea that I had to either make big gradual carves or just go faster (30% faster I suppose, given the difference in radii). Going faster makes crowds seem denser and runs seem narrower, but if you have space, it's sweet. (It took me a lot longer to get used to the space requirements than to get used to the way the board rides.)

Anyway, my advice is definitely go for hard boots if that's the style that looks fun. A more maneuverable board might make the learning curve easier though.

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