Hard boots on a twin tip?

[gawdzira]

I did an experiment and demoed a Burton Step On set up. Photons with Step On and took out a Burton Custom. 

The thought being if I want to be able to more easily go all mountain when I am with skiers (family/friends) then I would be more versatile and more likely to jump into the trees or down the steeps. Going down the steeps on my 172 Coiler is pretty challenging based on my suck level and being as old as time itself. 

The board was fun and I was at Northstar (California) where they have groomed expert runs. It was much easier and I could lay it over and carve on the steeps but the soft boots were not making me happy. Granted they were demo's so they were not a perfect fit.

My current thought is to put my hard boot set up on a shorter twin tip instead of going full softie. I have TD3 step in and UPZ XC12 which are pretty forgiving. Does this sound like a bad idea for any reason? If I go with something like a Donek all mountain board (maybe Knapton Twin) will that be stiff enough with the TD3's? Is there another all mountain board that would be a good choice. 

I am shrinking over time and currently close to 5'8" tall. The guy at the Burton shop was telling me the right size board for me was around a 58. I demoed a longer board (160?) and have never ridden anything as short as a 58. 

Is this all a terrible idea? The soft boots just did not seem to give me what I wanted. 

[BlueB]

Go softer with the bindings, like F2 Carve RS or Burton Race Plates/Ibex. Set your hard boots as soft as possible. Even walk mode on the rear... 

158 sounds like good size. However, the length is not as crucial as the flex and the width appropriate for your boot size and the angles you want to run. 

Set the rear boot to slight overhang, then front to the desired splay. With very low angles, you need less toe/heel lift than on race board, but you might want some inward canting on the rear. If duck, you can go flat, or just inward canting on both. 

[barryj]

1 hour ago, gawdzira said:

My current thought is to put my hard boot set up on a shorter twin tip

Hey G,

Try it...."you won't know if you don't go". is our family moto!   I bet you will like it!

I have TD3 SW SI's on all my setups.....from my hard charging Coiler Angrry and Donek MK mutant to the other end of the quiver, my pow board, Moss PQ60 swallowtail and my everyday work board and EC ripper,  twintip 168 Swoard Dual.      Hardboots and plates  work great in my opinion....much more responsive than any off the shelf softboot!    

[snowburn]

I ride my XC12's on my powder boards and love them. I wouldn't worry about softer bindings. Boots are flexy enough. At your height 20 1/2 inch stance is a starting point. I ride at 40 deg posi posi with at least front inward canting should do. You could add inward canting to rear or adjust boot cuff inward towards nose if you think you need. Toe lift front and flat on rear. XC's don't have walk mode so front boots at full upright, rear forward to your liking. I thought the XC's are too flexy so I added orange spring and swapped to the black tongues. Now there perfect. 

Edited March 23 by snowburn

[BlueB]

59 minutes ago, snowburn said:

I wouldn't worry about softer bindings. Boots are flexy enough. At your height 20 1/2 inch stance 40 deg posi posi is a good start 

I disagree. Hard boots have very little lateral flex. At low angles that needs to come from somewhere - the bindings. 

Angles have very little to do with the rider's height, but with the board width and the boot size. Splay is the key to having some extra rotational mobility. How much, is the matter of the rider's anatomy. 

[kibber]

what BlueB said

not All “hardboots” are the same. My “softboots” the last 3 years have been Deeluxe325’s (a shell size big) w intuition luxury liners (thick high volume) and softest bts spring kit. F2 RS Bindings.

Donek Hazelwood 175 twin tip (directional) w early rise front, 24cm waist, 45/40 angles. May sound “long” but the effective edge and camber is low, it wiggles just fine!

[gawdzira]

All great info, thanks.

 

[snowburn]

47 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Angles have very little to do with the rider's height

I agree. You read too deep in my sentence. I was adding extra info to that. Since he's about the same height I was giving him my set up minus boot size and board width. I figured he knew that. I forgot to mention my pow boards do have titan flex and RS. Maybe that's enough to make a difference?? Would it seriously ruin or make for a weird riding day on the mountain on TD3's verses F2"s? Not likely. I wouldn't recommend RS for hard carving with a plastic base. Seems too weak of a base plate especially if your a bigger or aggressive guy. I guess I'm a mutant and like a more solid connection to my board in all conditions. Each his own. FWIW

[philw]

7 hours ago, gawdzira said:

... My current thought is to put my hard boot set up on a shorter twin tip instead of going full softie. I have TD3 step in and UPZ XC12 which are pretty forgiving. Does this sound like a bad idea for any reason? If I go with something like a Donek all mountain board (maybe Knapton Twin) will that be stiff enough with the TD3's? Is there another all mountain board that would be a good choice. 

I am shrinking over time and currently close to 5'8" tall. The guy at the Burton shop was telling me the right size board for me was around a 58. I demoed a longer board (160?) and have never ridden anything as short as a 58. 

Is this all a terrible idea? The soft boots just did not seem to give me what I wanted. 

I ride soft boot boards all the time with hard boots, on piste and in powder. So I don't think it's a bad idea. I use F2 and Atomic Backlands/Phantom springs on a Burton board. In days of yore I used more traditional snowboard hard boots and those worked nearly as well, but the Phantom springs are game changers.

I've never ridden American bindings, just F2. They have been less successful than F2, maybe because of stiffness issues.

In my view your weight is the key, not height. Just get a soft boot board where you're in the middle of the recommended weight range, and which will neatly accommodate your stance angles.

I've almost always avoided hard boot board manufacturers boards, I just ride standard boards. I think that's because I ride the same way good soft boot boarders ride, I just happen to use hard boots. If you want to ride like Knapton, buy his signature board. Ditto Ranting James. But those folk are soft boot riders doing particular types of turn; it's hardly "all mountain". 

My own board is a 1.44m with a 6.6m sidecut. It carves with the best and rips in powder... but for dragging your armpits in very well groomed snow you'd want something designed specifically for that. It depends what you want to do.

---

Not a terrible idea; it's what I do. I ride with a lot of very good soft boot people, and the boot thing isn't really relevant either way.

I would say, that soft boots could also work for you, but you have to switch style to a more soft boot style. Do not, for example, try to ride soft boots with hard boot angles; that's not how they need to work.

If you're looking for all mountain, then I'd be wary too of soft boot merchants selling carving on specialized hardware to YouTube fans... that Coiler 172 does that one turn type on very smooth terrain already.




 

[barryj]

Hey G,

If you can acquire the boots and a plate system why not give it a go!

I'd suggest going down half a boot size or more if possible.  A SNUG fit is critical for keeping your heel from moving during hard turning/carving.

My street shoe size is 11.5-12 depending on the shoe but my hardboot size is size 10/ Mondo 28  It was a super tight the first 2 or 3 days but everything adjusted and felt fine after that.

Here my hardboot armada for examples.......

[dropthebody]

My first experience with Hardboots was on a K2 All Mountain Board early 2003-04(?). I saw a guy a couple of time with a 1997 Winterstick Severe Terrain with Hardboots. I know because I had the same board with soft boots and a mild carver stance. It has become one of the boards on my snowboard bench.

[snowburn]

21 hours ago, kibber said:

what BlueB said

not All “hardboots” are the same. My “softboots” the last 3 years have been Deeluxe325’s (a shell size big) w intuition luxury liners (thick high volume) and softest bts spring kit. F2 RS Bindings.

Donek Hazelwood 175 twin tip (directional) w early rise front, 24cm waist, 45/40 angles. May sound “long” but the effective edge and camber is low, it wiggles just fine!

@Kibber your slashr looks awesome! Not to threadjack but please give us specs

[kibber]

11 hours ago, snowburn said:

@Kibber your slashr looks awesome! Not to threadjack but please give us specs

LUV my SLSHR! new this season after MCC demo last year (‘23)-with a couple mods, of course! 172cm (floor to tip) 28/22waist/26.5. metal, square/round nose, average SCR 9m, stance setback apprx 5cm. I modified my Contra topsheet design/colorway to be “SLASHR”.

(stock slasher is scr 8m / 165).

Back to Topic! Gawdzira, I (too) struggled w adding softboot set ups to my all mt, pow, carv options for two seasons; never liked it as much, so ended up w two sets of hardboots/bindings. “race”stiff and “flexy”soft.

[gawdzira]

Before I got my Trench Diggers (after 20 years on a pair of Cateks) I tried the F2 step in and freaked out because of the lateral movement. I was scared it was about to release. Maybe I need to learn to embrace the movement and try the F2 again on my future twin tip.

[kibber]

On 3/23/2024 at 8:39 AM, gawdzira said:

Before I got my Trench Diggers (after 20 years on a pair of Cateks) I tried the F2 step in and freaked out because of the lateral movement. I was scared it was about to release. Maybe I need to learn to embrace the movement and try the F2 again on my future twin tip.

..I agree, and still feel same. I prefer TD & Catek for carve-only boards with feet angles 50+°.

Yesterday I had my SLSHR & Donek/twin out in stormy 4” new conditions, and adjusted angles to be 38°rear/44°front w F2Ti/inTecs.

Having a bit of lateral flex is GREAT w softer angles. The newer F2Ti’s also have toebail height adjustment.

Anyway, Yes, do it, try it, you’ll find a happy Plate/Twin combo.

[b0ardski]

always!

30 yrs dozens of boards with very few squaretails and laces suck

those 173 Identitys are true twintips w/progressive sidecut,  here's more recent

 

 

 

Edited March 26 by b0ardski

[gawdzira]

2 days in so far. 156 Burton Flight Attendant with F2 RS bindings. On the second day I added the heel boost on the rear which feels great.

Overall, I am feeling guilty for not having to work so hard on turns. When I am on an alpine board I feel obligated to crank hard on every turn. Like every chair lift ride is for a purpose to dial something in tighter and tighter. 

On the twin tip set up I could do some surf style sliding occasionally and just let it go. I was even able to navigate a half pipe (no air yet). Being over 60 yrs, there were only 2 competing at Nationals in the half pipe so I figure that if I can show up next year, I can podium.

[lordmetroland]

16 hours ago, gawdzira said:

Being over 60 yrs, there were only 2 competing at Nationals in the half pipe so I figure that if I can show up next year, I can podium.

You're Damien Sanders!