Stance angle help needed for Donek Freecarve 171

[ShakeNBake]

I have been out of the snowboarding and hardboot game since 1992 when I got a full time job and quit teaching snowboarding and quit riding (took up bicycle road racing).

I am getting back into it and bought a Burton Hometown Hero with step on bindings, which is a great setup, but I miss the feel of the hard boots and asymetrical Burton carving board I used to ride.

I can carve OK on the Hometown, but it feels awkward with the slack binding angles and soft boots.

I ordered a Donek Freecarve 171 Special Construction and Deeluxe connector bindings with Track 325 boots.

The board should be arriving in a few weeks and I am looking for advice on setting it up, as I have never ridden an nonasym carving board and have not ridden in hard boots in a long, long, long time.

I am 6'2  and have size 27 (Mondo) boots.

I used to ride with cant plates but I don't think I had (I can't remember) toe or heel lifts.

I never intend to run gates, but would like to be able to do fully laid out carves like I used to do.

Since I live in Oregon, I can extend out my season through early summer to get it dialed in as Timberline is generally open most of the summer, so I have some time to figure it out before next season.

Any suggestions on binding angles and anything else would be greatly appreciated.

Mike C

 

[SunSurfer]

Tech Articles here. These are a good resource for anyone starting out.

http://alpinesnowboarder.com/tech-articles/

The hard core extreme carving guys tend to run their bindings flat. The recommended technique for the fully laid out turns may have evolved a bit since you last tried it. Link below is to a playlist of extreme carving instruction videos.

If you are aiming for a more conventional carving setup then for someone your height with average leg length for that height, a stance length between 52 - 56cm between binding centres is a reasonable place to start.

Then as to whether cant or lift is useful try looking below. Lift is very likely to be helpful.

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by SunSurfer

[Odd Job]

Use the lowest binding angles you can get away with.

Even 45/40 is not too low. I'm not sure at what angles it stops feeling like snowboarding, but i don't want to find out. I run 55/50; feels almost exactly like softbooting at 15/6 angles for me. I ride over 100 days a year though, so that might have something to do with it.

[ShakeNBake]

Thanks for the info and keep it coming.

Too bad at 22 I did not have the foresight to write down my angles so 30 years later I could use them.

I noticed at the mountain that I am the only one skating with my back foot in front as I was so used to having my feet pointed forward that I always skated that way.

The crazy thing is I have yet to see a single hardbooter on the mountain, as back in the day I think 2 or 3 of us 10 instructors rode plates as did a number of my friends.

Watching 90% of the snowboarders skid turns is also weird as it does not seem like most are making any carved turns or even trying- powder and carving are what snowboarding has always been about for me.

Time to get my carve back.

Mike C

[SunSurfer]

This is the extreme carving instruction video I meant to post.

I've collected a whole lot of snowboard carving related videos and sorted them into a range of playlists. Hope it helps to pass the time till your gear arrives.

https://youtube.com/channel/UCbFkVPcmsd5oH-Oe0s3LEMw

[BlueB]

Welcome! 

We are all different, but a good starting point for most would be something like this:

Front angle, set for no overhang, or minimal underhang. A thin toe lift shim. 

Back angle, no or minimal overhang. Several degrees splay between front and back. A thin or a thicker heel lift shim. 

Make sure there is no bias of the boot(s) towards any of the edges. If absolutely necessary, slight toe edge bias is better. 

Set the binding centers at least 21" for your height, centered around reference stance. Clamp your self into the riding position, at home ("carpet carving") and stand there for a while, in riding position. If nothing is hurting or feeling awkward, the setup is probably right. Make sure you can flex and extend your knees easily. Otherwise, adjust until it feels right. 

Final adjustments on snow, if required. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by BlueB

[Jarcode]

Follow @BlueB's advice, especially the part about toe/heel lift. I made the mistake of ignoring lift at first which caused a lot of avoidable joint pain for me. It's crazy how much of a difference those little shims can make.

Also unmentioned is boot forward lean, which plays a pretty big role in establishing your neutral stance in addition to binding lift. Most people seem to have less forward lean on the font boot and more in the rear.

Alpine boards have also come a long way from the asym board you used to ride. I'm too young to have personally used anything like that but just knowing the construction differences, you're likely to be pleasantly surprised.

[ShakeNBake]

Thanks again for all the info and vids.

I can't wait for my new board to show up, especially as it is cold and snowing on Mt. Hood right now.

[NateW]

All good advice.

FWIW, I'm 6'0" and I like my stance in the 20-21" range. I try to center my stance on the center of the edge to start with, and move it bit by bit based on which leg gets tired first when I'm carving groomed stuff. E.g. if my front leg gets tired first, it's because I'm leaning forward, so I'll move the stance forward a little to fix that. Most boards have some set-back built into the insert positions, so by bindings tend to end up somewhat forward relative to the centers of the insert hole patterns. 

Stance angles are the lowest I can get them without dragging toes or heels, same as other folks said earlier. 50ish sounds like a good place to start with that setup. I like 5 degrees more on my front foot but everyone's preferences vary.

Hard boot riders are scarce these days, but some of us still think it's well worth the trouble and expense.  

[ShakeNBake]

All good stuff, thank you.

I would post up a review of the board when I ride it, but I don't know enough to comment.

Hopefully that will change next season when I get some days on the mountain.

[Jack M]

Yep, lowest angles you can use without your boots dragging in the snow.  As your carves get deeper this will mean not having any boot overhang.

Don't try to learn EC (Extreme Carving) technique until you have gotten very good at carving normally.  EC will give you bad habits like reaching down for the snow and bending over at the waist.

This is a great example for new hardbooters:

 

 

[wulf]

Even better ...

Sigi Grabner Raw Ride

Edited April 12, 2022 by wulf

[b.free]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

Yep, lowest angles you can use without your boots dragging in the snow.  As your carves get deeper this will mean not having any boot overhang.

Don't try to learn EC (Extreme Carving) technique until you have gotten very good at carving normally.  EC will give you bad habits like reaching down for the snow and bending over at the waist.

This is a great example for new hardbooters:

 

 

I disagree Jack, since the basics of EC works with any type of riding.

[BlueB]

18 minutes ago, b.free said:

I disagree Jack, since the basics of EC works with any type of riding.

I think you guys are talking 2 different things. While the rotational push-pull can work for any type of riding, Jack is probably talking more about the actual EC - dragging the body on the snow. It is the best to learn (any) clean technique, before attempting to drag the body parts. 

[b.free]

1 hour ago, BlueB said:

I think you guys are talking 2 different things. While the rotational push-pull can work for any type of riding, Jack is probably talking more about the actual EC - dragging the body on the snow. It is the best to learn (any) clean technique, before attempting to drag the body parts. 

Lets clarify, is your hand on the snow equals to dragging the body parts?! People temp to drag the body parts just because its safer and sometimes fun (EC tech)

I also think that not dragging any body parts on the snow comes with experience only. 

[Jack M]

Right, @BlueB.  What the EC folks call push-pull is just one form of basic carving.  I grew up calling it cross-under, but whatever.  They recommend, and I agree, that you should master push-pull before attempting laid out EC carves.  The problem is that so many newbies are seduced by the eye-candy laid out extreme carving videos and then they try to emulate EC before they have any business doing so.

[Keenan]

On 4/11/2022 at 2:39 PM, ShakeNBake said:

All good stuff, thank you.

I would post up a review of the board when I ride it, but I don't know enough to comment.

Hopefully that will change next season when I get some days on the mountain.

 

On 4/9/2022 at 3:40 PM, ShakeNBake said:

The crazy thing is I have yet to see a single hardbooter on the mountain, as back in the day I think 2 or 3 of us 10 instructors rode plates as did a number of my friends.

Are you at Meadows or Timberline?  Do you ride weekdays?  Some of us are still lurking around.

[johnasmo]

12 hours ago, Jack M said:

This is a great example for new hardbooters:

 

Hell yeah!  That could be the start of a "Hardboot Carving worth watching" thread.  Screw that other thread.  This is what I aspire to -- steep, fast, nothing but net.

Kill the audio and play it at quarter speed; all the tutorial you need.

[west carven]

howdy johnasmo

there is a Hardboot Carving worth watching thread it got buried cause nobody could find it, I dug it out from page 13. I miss the video page...

[ShakeNBake]

Keenan,

Small world, as I went to West Linn high in the late 80's.

Sigi's transitions are amazing, he sure knows how to unweight a board.

Thanks for all of the videos, it is good to see that hardboots are not dead.

Mike C