Low angle stances, high angle edges.

[scottishsurfer]

3 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

If you rode goofy your crazy system would line up with the way everybody else thinks, where positive rotation is towards the nose.

The dangers of being 99% self taught I end up coming at stuff with somewhat interesting ideas  I may be one of the few people on softboots to have experimented with running both bindings cant'd towards the nose (ie / / 2.5 lead 3dgree rear) rather than traditional inward canting \ / 

[Jack M]

2 hours ago, erazz said:

I've pretty much settled on 27/9 on 25cm wide boards. Seems to be the most comfortable for me with size 10 boots.

You're definitely booting out with that setup, if you try to carve deeply.  Unless you're using some kind of riser to reduce boot out.

[Mig]

1 hour ago, carlito said:

Mig!

Had to be before 1990.  Me and Rob Leblanc took our level one at Camp Fortune in the Gatineaus.  It was before moving to Whistler in fall 1990, maybe spring '89.  We weren't the first class.  I think Stan was involved.   Maybe it was spring 1990 after all... Jeez I feel old. ha ha

 

Could have been winter of 89, maybe? It was at Belle Neige. I will check tonight. I brought back a box of old stuff from home at Christmas, and there's paperwork in there from it. There should be a date on it. Yeah, getting old sucks!!! Haaa! Haa! Ha!

Edited February 14, 2018 by Mig

[Mig]

1 hour ago, Rob Stevens said:

The Quebec Snowboard Commission. 

Stan Kain and Mike Fabbro. 

Yeah! That would be them! Stan had neon Zinc on his nose all weekend. We kind of made fun of him a little because of it... :)

I think it was called "Fédération de Surf des Neiges du Québec" back then. It was run by Pierre Vérot and Marc Limoges.

[JRAZZ]

7 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Unless you're using some kind of riser to reduce boot out.

Yup

[Buell]

7 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

You're definitely booting out with that setup, if you try to carve deeply.  Unless you're using some kind of riser to reduce boot out.

I have to run 36/30 on 25 cm waist boards to keep from booting out. I wear a size 7 Driver X (size 9 street shoe). This photo is a 257 wide board with about 10 mm of taper and I am still at 33/24. I hate boot out!

Edited February 15, 2018 by Buell

[xy9ine]

yep. we of larger boot sizes need widths pushing 30cms. don't think that's going to happen any year soon w/ mainstream manufacturers, alas. 

random: i rented a board last year while on an out of town trip; decent spec, the longest & widest they had in the fleet. figured i'd try the default duck stance set up. first moderately aggressive heelside and i was on my ass, rocking down the hill on the heelcups. how do people ride these things?   

[moose]

This topic is definitely of interest to me. Here's my main finding/concern (buying a custom soon and still debating what to do about it): go too wide and you can't ride the whole mountain, but too narrow and you can't lay out carves. For example, on my 26 waist incline I have to run hardboots, 44/33, to get the most out of it (Mondo 28 boots). On my 28 waist Incline, I ride 30/15 (maybe still above the threshold for this topic?) and I can still ride moguls and trees, but when I carve if I do a full lay-out I boot out. If I do a "Korua shapes style carve" (Yearning for turning - he carves with both arms down but still has his butt up rather than laying out), I don't boot out... but the butt-up doesn't feel as cool. I also give up some agility on moguls and trees from a 26 waist board. 

Part of me would like to get a 30+ waist board in order to fully lay-out, but I also fear that it would become a 'carver only' softboot board, in which case I'd rather just ride the Proteus. 

I'm coming to think that I should just ride hardboots on perfect groom, and then switch to a ~28 waist board that can do it all fairly well. I like being able to ride moguls and trees and still have some fun on groomers on the way back... So what I'm thinking on the custom is a Flux in the 167 range with a 28 waist. Does anyone have experience with custom tailoring the flex to make a uber-wide board still perform OK on bumps, etc., or is that just fantasy?

[BlueB]

12 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

Back before CASI, formalized instruction came out of eastern Canada. I had been teaching for a few years before that, in Calgary at COP, then at Whistler, the first year they allowed snowboarding. Greg and I had our own progression, but it fit in pretty well with what we were shown. The Quebec guys were all in hardboots. I used Koflach Hunters (a lace up, with a Vibram sole, with no support above the ankle) at the time and Greg was in some of the first purpose made softboots. Our first executive director when we became CASI (he's still our ED today) used to give me stick for my setup... "those aren't softboots" he'd say. "You shouldn't conduct courses in those". "They're not what the candidates will wear". As you've read over the years, I'm a bit stubborn, so I'd laugh and tell him to fuck off. As one of the founders, in it before him, I could do that, but it was a source of... friction. Not long after, Dan put together a set up much like yours. Duck in hardboots. Now he was the one getting the piss taken. Worked well for him, but I always thought his boots were too stiff. If Greg is holding you back, you should just ask him "What about Dan Genge?"

I couldn't describe it better than you have, as to when my front outside ankle hurts... "flex and roll under load. 

I'm going to have to do something about that.

 

I think you've sent a video of Dan on ducked h/boots, to me and Cypress school, many years back, when they used to give me shait about hard boots... I don't have it any more, do you still have it, or a link to it? Would help, I think. 

How the things change... In the mean time Cypress made me a trainer, even before I did my L3, but now I have the "Greg situation"... 

 

[Buell]

I am still undecided about riding wider boards so I can lower my angles. The wider boards just seem sluggish edge to edge. I have small feet (size 7 Driver X) but like to ride with a high edge angle so boot out is still an issue for me. The widest board I have ridden that was built for carving groomers is 257 although I have carved 260 waist powder boards on groom at times.

It is possible that I have not gone wide enough to get my angles low enough for me to understand a wider board. It is also possible that my technique has developed around softboot carving angles running roughly 36/30.

If anyone has been in a similar situation and pushed through it to end up happily riding wider boards, please let me hear your experience.

[Buell]

12 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

 

I couldn't describe it better than you have, as to when my front outside ankle hurts... "flex and roll under load. 

I'm going to have to do something about that.

 

Typically, when I softboot carve, my back ankle will start to ache. It doesn't happen with any other activity, my ankles are fine. I assume I am just over flexing it in softboots. This season I got a new pair of Driver X boots to replace my broken in pair of Driver Xs. I have not had any ankle issues in them, but the new boots are still so stiff that I think it is negatively affecting my softboot carving. Hard to get the right balance. HBs are definitely nice for their consistency of flex over their lifespan. Softboots change so much over time as they break in / wear out.

[Sasquatch_Surfer]

55 minutes ago, moose said:

This topic is definitely of interest to me. Here's my main finding/concern (buying a custom soon and still debating what to do about it): go too wide and you can't ride the whole mountain, but too narrow and you can't lay out carves. For example, on my 26 waist incline I have to run hardboots, 44/33, to get the most out of it (Mondo 28 boots). On my 28 waist Incline, I ride 30/15 (maybe still above the threshold for this topic?) and I can still ride moguls and trees, but when I carve if I do a full lay-out I boot out. If I do a "Korua shapes style carve" (Yearning for turning - he carves with both arms down but still has his butt up rather than laying out), I don't boot out... but the butt-up doesn't feel as cool. I also give up some agility on moguls and trees from a 26 waist board. 

Part of me would like to get a 30+ waist board in order to fully lay-out, but I also fear that it would become a 'carver only' softboot board, in which case I'd rather just ride the Proteus. 

I'm coming to think that I should just ride hardboots on perfect groom, and then switch to a ~28 waist board that can do it all fairly well. I like being able to ride moguls and trees and still have some fun on groomers on the way back... So what I'm thinking on the custom is a Flux in the 167 range with a 28 waist. Does anyone have experience with custom tailoring the flex to make a uber-wide board still perform OK on bumps, etc., or is that just fantasy?

My Flux is 168cm x 28.5, 8.5 to 10 VSR.
Has I think a fairly good flex, not soft, but not too stiff either. It has kind of that hammer-head nose, so I tend to notice that a little in hard/firm snow bumps,. Might just be me, but getting one with a rounder nose profile might be a little nicer for that type of riding. Seems to go well everywhere else. No issues on the groomed of course.

  

[moose]

Cool, great info @Sasquatch_Surfer - I've wondered about the very ''racy' shape of the Flux! Maybe stick with an Incline for the shape... What do you think about the metal? Your board looks to be about the right size for that bear, wonder if he shreds it? 

[xy9ine]

that fat flux looks spot on. 

[carlito]

On 2/11/2018 at 8:32 PM, ShortcutToMoncton said:

 

Yeah, for freeriding I’m definitely changing the angles.  I’m going to move up to a 26cm BX for my next board too.  Going out to Banff and Kicking Horse for a week starting Saturday - so excited to be back out west again after 11 years!

 

Hey Shortcut.  Look me up when in Golden/Kicking Horse.  Glad  to show you around.  call or text 250 939 8129

[Sasquatch_Surfer]

@moose  No metal in my Flux, although I am sure Sean at Donek could put some in there if you want. Might make it a little damper, which might be preferable if you wanted to use it for BX, or recreational (beer) league racing.  You could also get any kind of nose profile you want. That's the nice thing about getting a board from one of the prominent shapers, you get exactly what you want.  Like i said though, it rides pretty good most everywhere., Seems to like it better with a little speed or maybe that's just me too ;)

[ShortcutToMoncton]

16 hours ago, carlito said:

Hey Shortcut.  Look me up when in Golden/Kicking Horse.  Glad  to show you around.  call or text 250 939 8129

Sounds good - I’ll be at KH on Wed and Friday, depending on the legs!  

[Rob Stevens]

On 2/14/2018 at 7:54 PM, moose said:

This topic is definitely of interest to me. Here's my main finding/concern (buying a custom soon and still debating what to do about it): go too wide and you can't ride the whole mountain, but too narrow and you can't lay out carves. For example, on my 26 waist incline I have to run hardboots, 44/33, to get the most out of it (Mondo 28 boots). On my 28 waist Incline, I ride 30/15 (maybe still above the threshold for this topic?) and I can still ride moguls and trees, but when I carve if I do a full lay-out I boot out. If I do a "Korua shapes style carve" (Yearning for turning - he carves with both arms down but still has his butt up rather than laying out), I don't boot out... but the butt-up doesn't feel as cool. I also give up some agility on moguls and trees from a 26 waist board. 

Part of me would like to get a 30+ waist board in order to fully lay-out, but I also fear that it would become a 'carver only' softboot board, in which case I'd rather just ride the Proteus. 

I'm coming to think that I should just ride hardboots on perfect groom, and then switch to a ~28 waist board that can do it all fairly well. I like being able to ride moguls and trees and still have some fun on groomers on the way back... So what I'm thinking on the custom is a Flux in the 167 range with a 28 waist. Does anyone have experience with custom tailoring the flex to make a uber-wide board still perform OK on bumps, etc., or is that just fantasy?

The 28 Donek I’m on is the widest I’ve used. I’m pretty confident that what you say is true, where if you go wider, you’d run into issues at edge change. In one respect, it’s a case of it actually being slower, but is this a problem you can’t get around? I’d say you can be faster at the switch with different techniques. 

Where it gets vague for me to say that to you is in the fact that I don’t know your “scale” relative to the board. I’m a bigger person. 6’1” 220 lbs, with a 10 foot. I’m lucky in that my foot isn’t that big, where I don’t need bigger than a 28 waist, but also have the leverage to make it manageable everywhere on the mountain. I’d also offer that I have to be at my best to make it work via very aggressive and early above-the-fall line edge changes. 

If your feet are bigger and you’re shorter, your problems will be amplified over mine. 

Where flex is concerned, I’m of a mind to keep it fairly stiff lengthwise, as making it too soft would have negative implications torsionally. (Yes builders? That seemed like what you were saying Carl) To get around that, my custom board will still be pretty rigid, but will be decambered up front. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Rob Stevens

[Rob Stevens]

On 2/14/2018 at 8:52 PM, Buell said:

Typically, when I softboot carve, my back ankle will start to ache. It doesn't happen with any other activity, my ankles are fine. I assume I am just over flexing it in softboots. This season I got a new pair of Driver X boots to replace my broken in pair of Driver Xs. I have not had any ankle issues in them, but the new boots are still so stiff that I think it is negatively affecting my softboot carving. Hard to get the right balance. HBs are definitely nice for their consistency of flex over their lifespan. Softboots change so much over time as they break in / wear out.

On the wider board, I really feel like I need to “steer” hard at the switch. 

I don’t want to go stiffer in the boots, as I feel I’ll give up versatility. 

The solution? Probably a less aggressive camber profile, so as above, I’d likely ditch full camber and go to something more inclined to turn on its own with the decambered or even rockered nose. 

My front ankle hurts at the start of a turn. If your back ankle hurts at the finish, maybe you need a more forgiving tail?

Edited February 18, 2018 by Rob Stevens

[scottishsurfer]

6 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

Where flex is concerned, I’m of a mind to keep it fairly stiff lengthwise, as making it too soft would have negative implications torsionally. (Yes builders? That seemed like what you were saying Carl) To get around that, my custom board will still be pretty rigid, but will be decambered up front. 

Flex is something I'm going to be most worried about when it eventually comes to getting a custom super wide as i tend to have a preference for boards that are very stiff from the insert pack right out to the tips but a tad softer between the feet but i don't know how this would translate to wider board at all

[Beckmann AG]

10 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

My front ankle hurts at the start of a turn. If your back ankle hurts at the finish, maybe you need a more forgiving tail?

Maybe take a closer look at load paths v bone structure. Particularly absent pre-existing condition or related pain during day-to-day activities. That kind of hurt doesn't sound like a good long term plan, and odds are good that board dimension is simply making the problem more obvious, rather than being the cause.

[Rob Stevens]

37 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Maybe take a closer look at load paths v bone structure. Particularly absent pre-existing condition or related pain during day-to-day activities. That kind of hurt doesn't sound like a good long term plan, and odds are good that board dimension is simply making the problem more obvious, rather than being the cause.  

My front ankle was pretty shaky before, but the board isn’t helping.

I’m having too much fun to stop, though. 

I’ve been on the mountain more days so far this year than the past few all because of this board (thanks Jack). Being able to come down the steep faces, then roll out onto the groomed lower runs and smash low turns is getting my pulse up right now, just thinking about it. 

To your point, Erik, I”d rather not go on like this, so the high back is going to have to be more supportive and responsive, and the board a bit more turn friendly.

 

 

 

[steven]

36/27 here. using old palmer risers (not in photo), and with size 9.5 malamutes and a 23.8 waist, i'm not getting much boot-out. board is 160. super fun set-up for tight carves (8.5 scr) as well as high speed cruising.

Edited February 19, 2018 by steven

[Poloturbo]

27.5" board with 29.0 mondo boots. 

I guess Flows as the advantage here because of those heel cups.

That's why it's the only board I don't boot out with those "low" angles.  

Great night tonight on this board before 3 days of rain ??

[Beckmann AG]

23 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

I”d rather not go on like this, so the high back is going to have to be more supportive and responsive, and the board a bit more turn friendly.

Have you considered softer longitudinal, then additional selective carbon weave layers spanning the insert pattern? If you do a little more to 'connect' the feet, you take some of the more erratic loading off the front foot. If you go to a stiffer lengthwise flex, you're probably going to put more 'spring tension' on that front foot, whether or not you have more highback. More nose de-camber will fluff the pillow, so to speak, but you're still left trying to catch a good sleep on a lumpy mattress.