Low angle stances, high angle edges.

[carlito]

On 2/18/2018 at 3:44 PM, scottishsurfer said:

 

On 2/18/2018 at 9:25 AM, Rob Stevens said:

Where flex is concerned, I’m of a mind to keep it fairly stiff lengthwise, as making it too soft would have negative implications torsionally. (Yes builders? That seemed like what you were saying Carl) To get around that, my custom board will still be pretty rigid, but will be decambered up front. 

Flex is something I'm going to be most worried about when it eventually comes to getting a custom super wide as i tend to have a preference for boards that are very stiff from the insert pack right out to the tips but a tad softer between the feet but i don't know how this would translate to wider board at all

 

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Ok.  Yeah Rob, this  is what I was getting at...   There are probably a couple of ways to skin this cat.  Fundamentally one has to always make some tradeoff in this respect.  Boards perform better, generally, and especially carving, when torsionally stiffer (all else being equal).  They are also a lot easier to ride when they are not too stiff in the shovel zone.  Or in the hips.  Unfortunately in order to get the second ("softer shovel/hips" ) you usually have to chip away at the first (stiffer in torsion).  Exactly what is too stiff/soft varies with a whole bunch of difficult to quantify stuff, but generally it's difficult to increase torsional stiffness without also increasing longitudinal stiffness.

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4 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Have you considered softer longitudinal, then additional selective carbon weave layers spanning the insert pattern? If you do a little more to 'connect' the feet, you take some of the more erratic loading off the front foot. If you go to a stiffer lengthwise flex, you're probably going to put more 'spring tension' on that front foot, whether or not you have more highback. More nose de-camber will fluff the pillow, so to speak, but you're still left trying to catch a good sleep on a lumpy mattress.

Beckmann here is echoing the right idea.  Softer longitudinal and stiffer in torsion.  But, I mean, if you're gonna connect the feet, you might as well connect the rest of the board at the same time as long as, and here's the catch, you don't crank up longitudinal stiffness.  This should let your feet deal with the loads more sympathetically.  How?  Well, when you have a hammer, they say, everything looks like a nail.  I am a carbon fiber guy so I am a big fan of increasing torsional stiffness by changing the +/-45* fibers in relation to the longitudinal (0*) fibers by using different weights of carbon on the different axis of the board.  The standard snowboard sandwich, for years, has been a roughly 22 oz/sq yard triaxial glass comprised of roughly 10 oz in the 0 axis,  and 6oz in the two 45* axis'(?plural).  Now you can change this in a bunch of ways, like adding metal, swopping out some of the glass for metal, going for a metal board with carbon or glass unis tip to tail to gain some mass/damping and torsional stiffness.  Don't forget that rubber.  But most of those options increase longitudinal stiffness in lockstep with torsion.  For what we are trying to do we want to change the recipe of the triax.  This is hard to source.  But most of the custom builders can help you out with something like this.  I know I can. 

Another school of thought is to very carefully try to match the flex profile of the board to what the particular rider wants.  Sean at Donek can certainly address this with much more wisdom than I can, but fundamentally, stiffness is altered through core thickness.  This also affects torsion.  By carefully altering the core profile one should be able to positively effect the soft bits/stiff bits/rider aims.  This is tough in todays market.  Boards are, usually too short in the edge contact length to have much room to vary the core thickness.  This is because once you remove two feet from the middle of the edge contact length for foot stance and inserts there is just not that much left to work with.  The "ramps" are pretty short.  Most companies don't even bother to do anything sophisticated with those ramps - they are usually simply slopes beginning at the end of the reference stance or insert pack and stopping at the edge contact (this is definitely not the case with most of the carving folks - they all know better... further, they usually have more length and thickness to work with).

Basically, by carefully profiling the core and tweaking the biases of the fiber weights you should be able to get the stiffness you need in torsion without ending up with an unbendable plank.  Remember, you are trying, while carving, to get the board to bend along the sidecut based on the board to slope angle.  Too stiff longitudinally and it doesnt really bend until you are dumping lots of energy into the system.  Not stiff enough in torsion and the sidecut "unwinds" as pressure builds and you don't generate longitudinal deflection.  Actually, one of the biggest unsung heroes of increasing torsion stiffness is that you can get away with less (bigger number) sidecuts.  This makes the boards more stable while remaining turny because they are riding a "bigger" sidecut, but it is not unwinding and disappearing as much.  Just built a 27 wide 170 for a big fella.  10 meter sidecut, with a little bit o' decamber, more in the tip than the tail.  Might have to take it for a spin and put my hardboots in a duck stance...

 

 

[Beckmann AG]

18 hours ago, carlito said:

I mean, if you're gonna connect the feet, you might as well connect the rest of the board at the same time as long as, and here's the catch, you don't crank up longitudinal stiffness.  This should let your feet deal with the loads more sympathetically. 

Agreed. Spanning the binding platform is sort of an intermediary solution, where the goal isn't so much to resolve the complications posed by an overwidth board, but to ensure that the loads are better shared by both feet. So if Rob built a board with slight decamber, softish shovel, and 'constrained' binding platform, the decamber would take the sting out of erratic tip-in, the shovel would bend without excess front foot loading, and the connection between binding mounts would provide a tactile prompt for the rear foot to compliment the action of the front foot with regard to edge angle. Again, reducing load to the front ankle.

Speaking of cores, have you ever worked with 'brighter', specifically more resonant wood species?

[Rob Stevens]

^ Sounds like we’re building a board Lads. 

 You’ll have to come out our way to christen it, Erik.

  Do I need you to write me an estimate, Carl?

 

[Beckmann AG]

^ Have a shot of espresso before you drop in, and we'll call it good.

[Rob Stevens]

^ The coincidence of you saying that today is uncanny. 

 Sorry... That’s just an obscure reference for me which I wouldn’t expect you to know! Like an inside joke, when I’m the only one inside. 

Thanks for the laugh!

[carlito]

On 2/20/2018 at 8:51 PM, Rob Stevens said:

 

^ Sounds like we’re building a board Lads. 

 You’ll have to come out our way to christen it, Erik.

  Do I need you to write me an estimate, Carl?

 

Rob:  I would be excited to move this project forward!  Chucky gave me your number a while back.  I'll call you in the next couple of days.  Lets build something cool!

[carvedog]

On 2/13/2018 at 9:59 AM, sic t 2 said:

Since u asked ! ...    Here is my beloved Lib Tech twin (Travis Rice model:  L162, W262) ridden at 21/9 (size 9 Burton footprint), doing my 2nd favorite documented carve to date.  Click here if you want to see it being cut.  Well, that's all for carving.  My real love is moguls and that's why i always ride low angles. 

 

Your comment on moguls prompted me to jump into this tread. ....a brother by another mother.

Old guy (56) here with a titanium hip 3. yrs ago, titanium knee 2.5 yrs ago. I love the bumps and have been riding a lot on my Cobra 164 Never Summer. Loving it. I didn't realize just how good this beauty could carve. A couple of years ago I only rode soft boots to teach and on deeper powder days, but I have been killing it this year with this board. Riding with Burton Mission bindings and Burton Freestyle boots in size 11 (found next to a dumpster at a thrift store that supports our local library. They had been left out in the rain and the people at the shop don't have time to dry things out) at 30F/15R for angles. I have gone thru several different iterations of soft boots and binders, all with different levels of pain and arch crushing. I have none of that now. 

Besides the comfort carving is effortless and stable and ridiculous speeds as well. As long as I don't go too hard. I find I am doing a lower angle carve and a little more round than my HBs and just having a ball. I have carved on wider boards but don't like the delay going edge to edge. Also don't like them as well in the troughy bumps. Also after riding 55 to 65 on my race boards the 30/15 feels positively sideways and makes for pretty effortless switch riding. Funny just yesterday someone commented on how 'forward' this binding setup is. 

I do have to say I do not like to skate very much on the more sideways setup, but whatever. 

So just adding to the carving stoke in whatever you are on. And bumps and powder. Oh yeah yesterday we had a good 7 inches with some wind ( not a ton) which added to the redistribution of powder and made for some very deep pillows. I got a face shot so hard it blasted under my goggles..... gonna go tighten them up a bit. 

[Beckmann AG]

On 2/21/2018 at 10:03 AM, Rob Stevens said:

^ The coincidence of you saying that today is uncanny. 

 Sorry... That’s just an obscure reference for me which I wouldn’t expect you to know! Like an inside joke, when I’m the only one inside. 

Thanks for the laugh!

Our intelligence services are reasonably effective. 

[Rob Stevens]

4 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Our intelligence services are reasonably effective. 

They’d want to be.

That was from so long ago, the only “recording” I could get of it was hand drawn pictures. 

[sic t 2]

15 hours ago, carvedog said:

I love the bumps and have been riding a lot on my Cobra 164 Never Summer. Loving it. I didn't realize just how good this beauty could carve. A couple of years ago I only rode soft boots to teach and on deeper powder days,

56!  U r just a kid ?.  Kudos to u still riding hard w that hip and knee.  I'm still on my orig parts but i hav a close friend that was out riding 3 weeks after a full double knee replace ?.  Stuff is good now !!

Yes, i take my moguls really seriously because they begin forming up best when the season is ending so they help me transition into my off-season passion:  dirt biking ( ktm300 yamaha450 ).   

I am experiencing a "rediscovery" too this season. But in the opposite direction as i hav found plate riding again.  Plates remind me of my 1000cc sport bike:  an unmatched carving experience but lose your nerve in a "must make" turn (and let it stand it up -OR- go for the brakes) and, well, u get a one-way ticket to a really bad place ??.   Sooo, just stay "in it" and all is well.    Ride on Sun Valley.  Big bumps arriving soon w spring in the air.

(( I really enjoy the soft boot WIDE boards.  But when the slope becomes "dust on concrete" they r just god awful ???.   Frightfully slow edge to edge. Not a one quiver board. ))

Edited February 24, 2018 by sic t 2

[Rob Stevens]

On 2/23/2018 at 8:36 PM, sic t 2 said:

 

(( I really enjoy the soft boot WIDE boards.  But when the slope becomes "dust on concrete" they r just god awful ???.   Frightfully slow edge to edge. Not a one quiver board. ))

What kind of bindings do you use?

the leverage of the wider boards can really deform weaker ones. The wider the board, the more you need to make a really high performance choice. I like the Drake Podium FF. Simple, stiff and long lasting. 

Maybe not so much stiffness in the boots, or you lose the mogul versatility you like. Big mogul fan myself.

KTM FTW!

 

[Rob Stevens]

On 2/23/2018 at 5:20 AM, carvedog said:

Your comment on moguls prompted me to jump into this tread. ....a brother by another mother.

Old guy (56) here with a titanium hip 3. yrs ago, titanium knee 2.5 yrs ago. I love the bumps and have been riding a lot on my Cobra 164 Never Summer. Loving it. I didn't realize just how good this beauty could carve. A couple of years ago I only rode soft boots to teach and on deeper powder days, but I have been killing it this year with this board. Riding with Burton Mission bindings and Burton Freestyle boots in size 11 (found next to a dumpster at a thrift store that supports our local library. They had been left out in the rain and the people at the shop don't have time to dry things out) at 30F/15R for angles. I have gone thru several different iterations of soft boots and binders, all with different levels of pain and arch crushing. I have none of that now. 

Besides the comfort carving is effortless and stable and ridiculous speeds as well. As long as I don't go too hard. I find I am doing a lower angle carve and a little more round than my HBs and just having a ball. I have carved on wider boards but don't like the delay going edge to edge. Also don't like them as well in the troughy bumps. Also after riding 55 to 65 on my race boards the 30/15 feels positively sideways and makes for pretty effortless switch riding. Funny just yesterday someone commented on how 'forward' this binding setup is. 

I do have to say I do not like to skate very much on the more sideways setup, but whatever. 

So just adding to the carving stoke in whatever you are on. And bumps and powder. Oh yeah yesterday we had a good 7 inches with some wind ( not a ton) which added to the redistribution of powder and made for some very deep pillows. I got a face shot so hard it blasted under my goggles..... gonna go tighten them up a bit. 

The feel good story of the thread!

[JRAZZ]

On 2/23/2018 at 5:20 AM, carvedog said:

I love the bumps and have been riding a lot on my Cobra 164 Never Summer. Loving it. I didn't realize just how good this beauty could carve.

Gotta agree. 

My Cobra (161) is my go-to powder board but it really handles well in groomers and trees. I noticed that it's not washy at all and does hold a line really well! I think it's because there's almost no taper.  

Just got to ride a full day yesterday with friends in trees and they remarked how well I carved on it. Guess the hardboot lessons from the LCI are paying off ), but the board is definitely surprisingly capable for a "rockered" softie board.

[sic t 2]

9 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

What kind of bindings do you use?

My "wide" board (159 A frame wide: 268ww)  has older Flows mounted. Twas a very stiff, high end model of Flow at the time.   Honestly, i gave up on the A-frame wide as my mainline board and only use it in good carving conditions at the local bump; Mountain creek, NJ.   It behaves fine in reasonable conditions and the Flows work well with the gondola too cause u can get those miserable-foot-crunching-biting-alligators off my feet completely for the ride up ?.  

I will look into the Drake Podiums.

 

[Rob Stevens]

On ‎2‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 8:41 AM, carlito said:

Rob:  I would be excited to move this project forward!  Chucky gave me your number a while back.  I'll call you in the next couple of days.  Lets build something cool!

Hi Carl.

Let's do that. The Grey snowboards thread highlights a few boards which if were wider underfoot with possibly a touch of setback and a wider / profiled nose, could be a real weapon.

Pretty stoked to advance this project!

[xy9ine]

looking forward to seeing what you come up with. the flock of japanese softboot carvers look super rad, but built for wee feet. there's certainly something to these types of designs; which - i think- has the potential to develop some legs in the n/a market as the interest in carving grows. a gateway drug of sorts, offering an easier point of entry than (relatively) unforgiving hardboot gear.