Low angle stances, high angle edges.

[lonbordin]

9 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

Does the Donek or Gecko plate sit under the entire binding, or is there overhang?

The Geckos (multiple models BTW) sit under the binding. Typically the binding does not overhang the plate or the board.

[scottishsurfer]

I vary stance angles largely depending what board im riding my 3 twins(26.4/26.5cm waists) ill ride -18/+18 but on my dedicated carving board SG soul 159xt(27.5cm waist) i tend to run -27/+3. I'm US size 11.5 but i normally squeeze into a vans US11. One thing i would like boot manufactures to list is the sole length of there boots so you can judge alot easier on just how good there size reduction is for example both my vans infuse and Frankensteined implants have a sole length of roughly 31.5cm

 

[lonbordin]

33 minutes ago, scottishsurfer said:

but on my dedicated carving board SG soul 159xt(27.5cm waist) i tend to run -27/+3.

Might you mean +27/+3?

[scottishsurfer]

I forget i tend to give angles the opposite from how most do, I always think of it being 0 with any rotation clockwise being positive and any rotation counter clockwise being negative. So with me being a regular rider to me i ride -27 on the front and +3 on the back but thats just the way my crazy brain works. In traditional money to everyone else i ride +27/-3.

Anyway here's a photo of me surfing the deisel sugar at the indoor slope on the SG

 

[Jack M]

11 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

I haven't ridden a riser since the Palmer's of yore. The tippy feeling, which I kind of got used to on hardpack carving, didn't get me frothing on more freeride terrain. I just felt like it wasn't needed for the latter. I don't know much about new plates like the Gecko, but it seems like the baseplate could be unsupported. A plate binding with a riser is rigid, while a soft binding flexes at its ends if it's not sitting on a firm surface.

 Does the Donek or Gecko plate sit under the entire binding, or is there overhang?

 

Donek BX plates and Gecko Cross, Free, and Stealth plates sit under most if not all of the binding baseplate.  They're made for softboots, I wouldn't hesitate to try them if you want lift.  I haven't tried them yet because of budget and I doubt I'd like the lift, but I'm curious.  A soft binding will flex at its ends and lift off the surface whether it is sitting on a firm surface or not.  I shopped at my local Burton store which is run by my friend and asked him for their stiffest binding.  He directed me to the Genesis X.  It's pretty good but the heel end will still lift off the board.  I'll be getting Now O-Drives next.

 

[Corey]

FYI: There were a set of Palmer riders at the Aspen thrift/second-hand store last week.  They were well used but looked complete other than mounting screws.  

[Rob Stevens]

2 minutes ago, Corey said:

FYI: There were a set of Palmer riders at the Aspen thrift/second-hand store last week.  They were well used but looked complete other than mounting screws.  

With those ones, unless you had an aluminum or carbon baseplate, where the cushion insert (bolt cover) was fully supported by the baseplate (few are) the binding would sag over the riser. 

[Rob Stevens]

34 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

Donek BX plates and Gecko Cross, Free, and Stealth plates sit under most if not all of the binding baseplate.  They're made for softboots, I wouldn't hesitate to try them if you want lift.  I haven't tried them yet because of budget and I doubt I'd like the lift, but I'm curious.  A soft binding will flex at its ends and lift off the surface whether it is sitting on a firm surface or not.  I shopped at my local Burton store which is run by my friend and asked him for their stiffest binding.  He directed me to the Genesis X.  It's pretty good but the heel end will still lift off the board.  I'll be getting Now O-Drives next.

 

In some cases, I'd be used to the lift, but not the sag. With most new bindings supporting under the toe, they feel quite firm. With the Palmer risers, it was like taking the board deck away and replacing it with... nothing. 

Very excite to try the Now's myself. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Rob Stevens

[Jack M]

I highly doubt sag is an issue with Donek or Gecko.  They appear to support the toe and heel sufficiently.

[Rob Stevens]

2 hours ago, scottishsurfer said:

I forget i tend to give angles the opposite from how most do, I always think of it being 0 with any rotation clockwise being positive and any rotation counter clockwise being negative. So with me being a regular rider to me i ride -27 on the front and +3 on the back but thats just the way my crazy brain works. In traditional money to everyone else i ride +27/-3.

Anyway here's a photo of me surfing the deisel sugar at the indoor slope on the SG

 

My mental image of what I first thought you meant caused physical pain in my lower extremities. 

Glad we cleared that up!

Any outdoor shred this year?

[Rob Stevens]

Just now, Jack Michaud said:

I highly doubt sag is an issue with Donek or Gecko.  They appear to support the toe and heel sufficiently.

I've never seen one first hand, but I can't imagine that would get by the design phase!

[Poloturbo]

Trying my softboot boards. 

I need forward angles on two of 26.5" boards. So much that on very steep bumps the rear foot started to hurt on torsional shocks in big bumps.

I tried the JJA risers like on the right board and they are heavy, removes feel, but did really help for booting out.

 

I need carbon risers super light and that doesn't remove feel.

My 27.5" board is perfect. Low angles "for me" 30/10 and lots of comfort and rear leg power. Best of both worlds. Laid out carves is much easier. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Poloturbo

[scottishsurfer]

I've been on the mountains a few times so far this season but we don't really get groomers suitable for carving most days and snow depth is often pretty poor. I did get the SG on a mountain for the first time yesterday but i was riding it in powder rather than groomed piste due to wind causing big drifts across the runs. I will be riding for a week in bulgaria in the start of march that's where ill hopefully be able to properly let the SG off the chain carve some nice solid runs

I have tried the now recons i was quite impressed with just how locked in and secure i seemed to be, they were really nice and responsive but i cant say they were that much more responsive than say my rome targas. My biggest worry would be getting my boot centered on a wider board since your limited to using the disk to slide it towards the toe or heel edge. Also im not sure if this would have an effect on how the performce of the pivoting motion since it would be forward or behind the center line of the board.

Edited February 14, 2018 by scottishsurfer

[JRAZZ]

I've pretty much settled on 27/9 on 25cm wide boards. Seems to be the most comfortable for me with size 10 boots. I think that anything under 15 degrees on the back boot is pretty much the same in terms of bootout.

 

I've only very recently discovered plates and have been having a blast trying them out. If you're looking for a cheap solution..... (caution - heavy nerd content)

 

[Rob Stevens]

8 hours ago, BlueB said:

Haha do it, the TEC committee are going to think I brainwashed you ?. Maybe Greg will finally let me complete my evaluator training... 

That's where it is, my ankles can't take softies any more, since long ago. For me, the problem starts when I have to flex and roll at the same time, under load... 

My solution is to ride super flexy plastic plates (F2 Carve RS or Blax), to provide the roll under the boot, while the boot is unlocked for free forward flex, for low angles, freeride and freestyle. At 45° front I sometimes lock for more aggressive carving. Beyond 45° I use the Snowpro bindings, for less roll. 

I rode the Garmont Shogun AT boots, last year. The soles were great, the side flex was a bit more, not that I really needed it though - I've got plenty from the binding. Locked forward flex was more then on my Dalbellos. The unlocked flex was about the same, but possibly more progressive. The forward lean was more, even unlocked and I didnt like that at all, especially in the park. Eventually, I broke both boots just under the tongues, so that settled it - back to Dalbello CRX, which last for many years. 

I hope it helps... 

Back before CASI, formalized instruction came out of eastern Canada. I had been teaching for a few years before that, in Calgary at COP, then at Whistler, the first year they allowed snowboarding. Greg and I had our own progression, but it fit in pretty well with what we were shown. The Quebec guys were all in hardboots. I used Koflach Hunters (a lace up, with a Vibram sole, with no support above the ankle) at the time and Greg was in some of the first purpose made softboots. Our first executive director when we became CASI (he's still our ED today) used to give me stick for my setup... "those aren't softboots" he'd say. "You shouldn't conduct courses in those". "They're not what the candidates will wear". As you've read over the years, I'm a bit stubborn, so I'd laugh and tell him to fuck off. As one of the founders, in it before him, I could do that, but it was a source of... friction. Not long after, Dan put together a set up much like yours. Duck in hardboots. Now he was the one getting the piss taken. Worked well for him, but I always thought his boots were too stiff. If Greg is holding you back, you should just ask him "What about Dan Genge?"

I couldn't describe it better than you have, as to when my front outside ankle hurts... "flex and roll under load. 

I'm going to have to do something about that.

 

[Rob Stevens]

44 minutes ago, scottishsurfer said:

I've been on the mountains a few times so far this season but we don't really get groomers suitable for carving most days and snow depth is often pretty poor. I did get the SG on a mountain for the first time yesterday but i was riding it in powder rather than groomed piste due to wind causing big drifts across the runs. I will be riding for a week in bulgaria in the start of march that's where ill hopefully be able to properly let the SG off the chain carve some nice solid runs

I have tried the now recons i was quite impressed with just how locked in and secure i seemed to be, they were really nice and responsive but i cant say they were that much more responsive than say my rome targas. My biggest worry would be getting my boot centered on a wider board since your limited to using the disk to slide it towards the toe or heel edge. Also im not sure if this would have an effect on how the performce of the pivoting motion since it would be forward or behind the center line of the board.

Bulgaria, eh?

Pleaseplease do a trip report. 

When you talk about adjusting where the binding sits on the board, I'm a bit confused... you mean you can only adjust the Now's heel and toe and not tip to tail? Normally, you'd get to pick either, but not be limited to only one. If I had to pick, it would be heel and toe edge offset. Strangely, my Donek only has a 4x4 pattern and not 2x4. My ideal stance is somewhere between where my bindings are and where they would be if I moved them in one set of inserts. The former is wiiiiide, while the latter is much too narrow. I'll take wide over narrow any day. Seems like an oversight on Donek's part, as most high end manufacturers use 4x2. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by Rob Stevens

[scottishsurfer]

You can do either but only through the disk so if you run the disk to adjust for heel and toe you lose the ability to adjust tip to tail and vice versa since its a solid heel cup you have no other option than using the disk to center the boot.

I'm sure ive seen doneks with a 4x2 pattern it maybe just something you have to ask for before construction.

 

[Corey]

1 hour ago, Rob Stevens said:

With those ones, unless you had an aluminum or carbon baseplate, where the cushion insert (bolt cover) was fully supported by the baseplate (few are) the binding would sag over the riser. 

It's like camber for your feet.  ;)

[carlito]

I am really liking this thread for a few reasons. 

First the board talk is always interesting to me...

Second, I love the idea that what is going on is really a blending of carving/freeriding/all mountain riding in a way that focuses on a high performance approach to getting around the mountain.  What defines this?  Probably nothing more complicated than keeping your energy "high".  Traveling at higher than average speeds while not dumping tons of energy sliding turns with slip angles over 45*;  committing to the edge during a turn.  Mostly it is attitude.  I really like that Rob Stevens is saying that he's having so much fun carving!  Stance angles are, I think, like twiddling the dials on the amps and effects pedals to get the sound you want.  It doesn't really matter, there is no right and wrong, what matters is that it feels good and allows you to be as committed to the edge as you need to be in the terrain you want to ride.  In a lot of ways it's probably early days here

Third:   Again, it comes back to boots.  There have been some rants (Gilmore maybe?  after the talk about Burton's new step on thingys), complaints, wishes, polls, mods and on and on.  It doesn't really matter how they're attached to the board (isolation plates debate notwithstanding) so long as you can change the angles/position/and canting/lift if you want to but we need better boots.  It's been 30 years.  We're still thinking about modifying AT boots, Ice climbing boots, Mountaineering boots.  Arrgh.  Plastic boots start out shitty/painful, but after a bit of dancing with the local bootfitter a hardbooter can at least get to the bottom of the hill and their feet are still comfy.  I usually experience a perverse sense of schaudenfraude (sp?) watching the kids in their softboots, who were just telling me how comfortable they were at the top of the hill, yanking their feet out of their bindings, as if they were in wolverine pens or something, at the bottom of the gondola....  But this is, really, just childish on my part.  The fact is their feet hurt too. 

I tried going to softboots.  About 6 years ago.  "The boots are better now, the bindings are better, They're SO stiff!  They're light and warm.  After all you can't ride powder or bumps or trees or anything other than groomed in plastic boots!"  I hated it.  The smeary lack of power and vague connection to the board was disconcerting.  I farted around with angles, settings, forward lean, duct tape, foam.  Felt like it was 1989 again.  It was ok in powder,  well pretty awesome when it was low angle or trees actually, but frustrating when loading the board up.  When Rob and BlueB mention ankle issues;  flex/roll under load.  I can add one more.  Toeside turns under power, hitting something uneven where pressure changes fast (think:  mogul hidden under 5 cm of snow;  30 everywhere else).  My back foot ankle hurts just thinking about it.  Finally (4 years later) went back to putting my plates on my powder board (38/21;  35/21)and giggled like a schoolgirl for the whole run.  But that's just me....

Fundamentally, I think Beckmann is right. (paraphrasing here, hope I am not taking you too much out of context...)  The boots (and remainder of binding interface) have to support/transfer power from the riders body to the board whilst allowing for the riders body to travel through a range of motion without inputting unwanted/inadvertent loads/forces to the board.  This range of motion is simply whatever is needed to get your body in the right position vis a vis the board/slope to get done what you want done.  I love the Frankenboots he has built.  It looks to me like he has allowed the boot to fit his foot comfortably (he's  a bootfitter kinda guy after all...) and allowed it to move freely, then allowed tune-able control of that movement through the spring loaded "travel limiters".  The rest of us are trying to get the plastic shells of the boots to flex the way we want by shaving/rivetting/swopping parts (tongues) using different elastomers in the binding flex points.  Every control input has too many effects.

Softer, more adjustable hardboots?  Stiffer softboots (made of plastic a la Fitwell?) with adjustability in the exoskeleton (binding)?  I donno.  Somethings gotta give...

[carlito]

Rob:  Yeah lets ride!

 

[Mig]

1 hour ago, Rob Stevens said:

Back before CASI, formalized instruction came out of eastern Canada. I had been teaching for a few years before that, in Calgary at COP, then at Whistler, the first year they allowed snowboarding. Greg and I had our own progression, but it fit in pretty well with what we were shown. The Quebec guys were all in hardboots. I used Koflach Hunters (a lace up, with a Vibram sole, with no support above the ankle) at the time and Greg was in some of the first purpose made softboots. Our first executive director when we became CASI (he's still our ED today) used to give me stick for my setup... "those aren't softboots" he'd say. "You shouldn't conduct courses in those". "They're not what the candidates will wear". As you've read over the years, I'm a bit stubborn, so I'd laugh and tell him to fuck off. As one of the founders, in it before him, I could do that, but it was a source of... friction. Not long after, Dan put together a set up much like yours. Duck in hardboots. Now he was the one getting the piss taken. Worked well for him, but I always thought his boots were too stiff. If Greg is holding you back, you should just ask him "What about Dan Genge?"

I couldn't describe it better than you have, as to when my front outside ankle hurts... "flex and roll under load. 

I'm going to have to do something about that.

 

That brings back memories! I was part of the very first class of Quebec instructors (1990?). My buddy Benny and I had the highest passing grades. As I remember, I think I was one of the rare ones there using hardboots (Kastinger ski mountainering boots). Used a custom SIN board and plates made by Lofo. The two guys from the Federation "teaching" us were definitely not on hardboots. One of them might have been named Stan? I think the dude that started Snowboard Canada Mag was there too that weekend. He was on a Burton M6 but with Flex bindings and softboots I think. Can't remember his name...

[scottishsurfer]

I posted them in another topic but these are my Frankensteined vans implants, new stronger power-strap that runs around the outside of the boot, bonded the tongue from another pair of boots to the back of the implant tongues and i added plastic stripping down the rear spine of the boot also. I'm am probably going to carry out a similar operation to my good vans infuse tomorrow to give them an extra bit of stiffness before i head off to Bulgaria 

[carlito]

Mig!

Had to be before 1990.  Me and Rob Leblanc took our level one at Camp Fortune in the Gatineaus.  It was before moving to Whistler in fall 1990, maybe spring '89.  We weren't the first class.  I think Stan was involved.   Maybe it was spring 1990 after all... Jeez I feel old. ha ha

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

4 hours ago, scottishsurfer said:

I forget i tend to give angles the opposite from how most do, I always think of it being 0 with any rotation clockwise being positive and any rotation counter clockwise being negative. So with me being a regular rider to me i ride -27 on the front and +3 on the back but thats just the way my crazy brain works. In traditional money to everyone else i ride +27/-3.

If you rode goofy your crazy system would line up with the way everybody else thinks, where positive rotation is towards the nose.

[Rob Stevens]

17 minutes ago, Mig said:

That brings back memories! I was part of the very first class of Quebec instructors (1990?). My buddy Benny and I had the highest passing grades. As I remember, I think I was one of the rare ones there using hardboots (Kastinger ski mountainering boots). Used a custom SIN board and plates made by Lofo. The two guys from the Federation "teaching" us were definitely not on hardboots. One of them might have been named Stan? I think the dude that started Snowboard Canada Mag was there too that weekend. He was on a Burton M6 but with Flex bindings and softboots I think. Can't remember his name...

The Quebec Snowboard Commission. 

Stan Kain and Mike Fabbro.