Is it now pretty much manditory to carve with ze knees apart for steeps and bumpy?

[1xsculler]

Is ze knees apart pretty much required if you want to hard boot on steeps and bumpy slopes?  It seems like it would be.

[b0ardski]

been rippin zipper lines and throwin threes in steep bumps with 3* inward cant on both binders since bumps were made by 210+ cm skis

but I'm a wierdo

Edited December 29, 2016 by b0ardski

[1xsculler]

I need a translation.  What are zipper lines, throwin and threes?

3* inward cant I understand.  What angles front & rear and what lift front and/or rear?

[charliechocolate]

1 hour ago, 1xsculler said:

I need a translation.  What are zipper lines, throwin and threes?

Park rat detected. He means the troughs in between moguls and doing 360 spins.

[Neil Gendzwill]

1 hour ago, charliechocolate said:

Park rat detected. He means the troughs in between moguls and doing 360 spins.

The zipper line is the most direct line possible, straight down the fall line. It's called that because the bumps are alternating left and right like the teeth of a zipper.  In the zipper line you are mostly on the sides of the bumps although of course in a natural field you could end up anywhere as they aren't as symmetrical as the freestyle ski courses.

The skiers at the start of this video are taking the zipper line. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Neil Gendzwill

[b0ardski]

Sorry for the confusion sculler, I was being glib

short answer, not required,

however, if you normally carve with outward cant to get the front knee into better "driving" position then you'll want to keep in that comfort zone.

I'm an old school skier that loved skiing steep bumps at alpental and ski acres in the 80s, by the time shaped skis came along I was already in hardboots w/forward angles on a twintip 186 nitro the 1st year alpental allowed snowboards.

Because of the ski background, hardboots & alpine angles felt normal, so knees together for me like the bump skiers in the vid Neil posted.

Knees together works better for tight quick turns because of a lot of board rotation under a stable upper body.

Knees apart will work better for big gs style turns on wide open steeps; more stable & subtle control over the tip/tail, like a martial arts horse stance.

being able to transition between those styles is an important all mountain skill to develop.

I ride about 25*/40* on 25cm wide boards, 30/45 on 23 cm wide and 40/50 0n 20-21.5 wide. size 27 shells puts my back foot w/slight overhang, slight under hang on the front for the most direct edge pressure. heel/toe lift only on skinny boards,

Edited December 29, 2016 by b0ardski

[b0ardski]

10 hours ago, charliechocolate said:

Park rat detected. He means the troughs in between moguls and doing 360 spins.

I went in the park once, why in heavens would I want to beat my base on all those metal obstructions in the flats when steep snowy bumps and trees abound?

Edited December 29, 2016 by b0ardski

[Jack M]

It has been for quite some time...

http://www.bomberonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Separate-Zee-Knees.pdf

[b0ardski]

not counter rotating in the bumps sounds painful

knees together doesn't mean they're spooning

Edited December 29, 2016 by b0ardski

[BlueB]

I free ride better with slightly larger stance then on carve only boards. However it's not a huge stance by any means - under 21"... 

As for knees apart or together, I'd say neither, but rather neutral and natural for your body structure. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

I used to ride with cant, now only heel lift on the back foot. 19.5" stance, 50/55 angles. I do tend to drive the back knee forward. 

[lamby]

What Jack said, and what Gladwell describes in his non-fiction book, Outliers. Basically, that the key to achieving world-class expertise in any skill, is, to a large extent, a matter of practicing the correct way, for a total of around 10,000 hours.

[Erik J]

If you are determined anything will work.

Here's a drill to practice. Stand in the back of a friends pick up truck. Don't hold on to anything. Have said friend get drunk and go shopping cart ramming in the Walmart parking lot. When you can last for 30 minutes without falling over you will be ready for the steeps. Trust me, I am an interneter. 

[lamby]

Freakanomics Radio just rebroadcast an interesting podcast about the subject of How to Become Great at Anything. Interviews and stories are fascinating to me. I think dedicated practice is the key to improvement. Doing more than you are comfortable with, striving to get better, getting feedback from others who are better than you, not being afraid to look foolish once in a while as you attempt to get better through trial and error (or by doing practice drills that might look a bit loopy to some people :-) ... If you're interested, here is a link to th podcast: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/peak-rebroadcast/ 

[pow4ever]

Alway up vote follow NPR listener :-)
Agree 100% since I am one of those "ungifted".  Everything seems to be extra hard...
However I have the tendency to look at other people's end result and missed the fact how much efforts/work they put in to get to where they are.
Gotta pay those dues; trying to game the system seems to bite me in the butt every time.

[lordmetroland]

1 hour ago, pow4ever said:

Gotta pay those dues; trying to game the system seems to bite me in the butt every time.

Evidently, you're way short of the 10,000 hours of gaming the system...

[Jack M]

On 12/29/2016 at 7:03 PM, BlueB said:

As for knees apart or together, I'd say neither, but rather neutral and natural for your body structure. 

If your knees are not touching, they are apart.  The article was written when the Craig Kelly and Peter Bauer school of knees together was in vogue (no disrespect to them).

[pow4ever]

2 hours ago, lordmetroland said:

Evidently, you're way short of the 10,000 hours of gaming the system...

There is a ted talk on short circuit 10k hours rule (for piano)
https://codingvc.com/the-100-hour-rule/ (for coding related)

For me:  There is no replacement for TOM(time on mountain).  Keyboard carving only get so far lol.

That lead to "Doing more than you are comfortable with"
Another problem is I don't push myself enough.  The margin for error gets smaller as we advance and me bone is start to fuse together.
Lack the mental fortitude when it get steep, icy, narrow.

It doesn't mean doing the same thing over and over.  
Lots of people I know have been driving for 10+ years and they are no F1 driver :-)

bottom line is where do we want to be?  there is "price tag" associated with it.  

Novice -> Competent -> Expert

the other thread hit so many nail on the head.  It's great reminder/starting point for the new season.

Finally there is always exception to the rule where some one just pick up carving like it's no big deal.  I envy those with natural athletic talent just ooze out of them.
Guess that's the part why i enjoy this sports.  It's challenging for me.

[lonbordin]

9 hours ago, pow4ever said:

There is a ted talk on short circuit 10k hours rule (for piano)
https://codingvc.com/the-100-hour-rule/ (for coding related)

For me:  There is no replacement for TOM(time on mountain).  Keyboard carving only get so far lol.

 

You may have learned from that TED talk but Dr. Ericsson is the source. Gladwell made Dr. Ericsson's 10,000 hours to become an expert idea widely known but it was Anders' labs work that made the discovery. (Disclaimer, I used to work with him.)

https://psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericssonk/ericsson.dp.php

Unfortunately a key part of the work has been left behind.

"Perfect practice makes perfect" -Anders.

You can do something for 10k hours and not progress because you're doing it wrong. Time on the mountain is essential. Practice on the mountain with feedback is essential to start doing it right.

[b0ardski]

Challenge is why I took up telemarking and snowboarding after learning to ski. Being able to ski/ride anywhere on the mountain in any conditions was the uultimate goal and I devoted my life to accomplishing that.

10k hrs of practice to ski backwards on a snowboard sounds about right. That perfect practice principle would have cut that in half with proper guidance from all those switch snowboard skiing instructors from the 80s. Don't listen to me, I've been doing it wrong for at least 10,000 hrs. Perfect is as perfect does.

Edited December 31, 2016 by b0ardski

[philw]

I seem to recall some time ago that there was contradictory evidence around the 10,000 hours thing.

If you start classifying hours subjectively into "ones that count" and ones that don't, that seems a little against the "rule". As a general concept I think it has some merit though. From memory the basic point to me was that there may in fact be no such thing as "natural ability" : given enough time we can become good at whatever sport it is. That's a liberating thought, and I think it's correct.

[lonbordin]

1 minute ago, philw said:

I seem to recall some time ago that there was contradictory evidence around the 10,000 hours thing.

If you start classifying hours subjectively into "ones that count" and ones that don't, that seems a little against the "rule". As a general concept I think it has some merit though. From memory the basic point to me was that there may in fact be no such thing as "natural ability" : given enough time we can become good at whatever sport it is. That's a liberating thought, and I think it's correct.

It's not contradictory so much as the 10k hours was distilled out of a body of scientific work making it overly simplified and easily misinterpreted and misused. Anders would agree with you about the "natural ability" piece.  There were long discussions on the breezeway with faculty and staff about this very point.  Anders maintained with proper instruction and perfect practice anyone (without physical disabilities) can perform at an expert level with sufficient hours invested.

Unfortunately for the lot of us... we don't have a nearby expert (or coach) that can provide the level of feedback to achieve the expert levels in our endeavors.

[BlueB]

23 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

If your knees are not touching, they are apart.  The article was written when the Craig Kelly and Peter Bauer school of knees together was in vogue (no disrespect to them).

I always thought it's related more to the tendency to squeeze the knees towards the centre of board, vs spreading them apart "cowboy" style... 

[Beckmann AG]

It's recreation. Nothing is 'manditory'.

Adopting the outward appearance of what you believe to be a good rider won’t make you a good rider.

Assuming you are remotely competent at pulsing your Van Dusen through the water, you must have realized at some point that effective sculling is more than the simple application of proscribed movements/positions. 

 

Riding with knees together is (typically) structurally deficient, and grants the appearance that the rider has a bladder control issue.

Riding ‘mondo cowboy’ is simply the other end of the same spectrum.

Point being, you want to ride with a posture that lets you take the loads of a turn on your bones, without stressing the joints, or restricting their articulation. (The latter by way of leverage or muscle tension).  In addition, those articulations shouldn’t complicate the work of the edge on the snow; a real possibility if the rider inadvertently warps their board while flexing the knees along divergent paths.

 

On December 31, 2016 at 9:01 AM, lonbordin said:

You can do something for 10k hours and not progress because you're doing it wrong. 

 

Effective learning, particularly in the alpine context can be characterised as making a never ending series of non-fatal errors, whereby ‘non-viable’ movements can be identified, mapped, and relegated.

 

A common problem is 'practicing in error', which is to say, repeating a particular sequence of movements that you think should lead to better performance, but simply won’t.

I.e., If you want to ski like a robot, practice like one.

 

Misguided practice complicates the process of productive growth, as it’s reasonably difficult to overwrite the sheer mass of erroneous ‘learning’. Particularly if that learning has taken place over an extended time frame.

In other words, “practice makes permanent”.

 

On December 31, 2016 at 9:01 AM, lonbordin said:

Time on the mountain is essential.

Time on mountain really matters, because it takes a lot of time to make so many ‘mistakes’ that the perception of impending disaster doesn’t ‘lock’ the system, thereby establishing artificial boundaries. Nobody wants to crash, but gaining actual ‘control’ over the situation quite often involves an embrace of the apparent chaotic. In other words, there’s a phase of development where trying harder to feel ‘safe’, to secure one’s feet to a slippery surface, simply prevents additional learning/discovery.

 

It's not by accident that hockey players and gymnasts have an easier time learning to ride. 

 

On December 31, 2016 at 9:01 AM, lonbordin said:

Practice on the mountain with feedback is essential to start doing it right.

 

Regarding feedback, It’s too easy/convenient to become reliant on outside opinion; opinion which itself may be suspect.

How is one to know that their chosen ‘mentor’ is qualified, and that the source material on which one draws is actually useful for the long run? Anyone can make a suggestion that makes a ‘difference’, but mere change of outcome isn’t the same thing as tangible improvement in performance.

If, on the other hand, an enthusiast learns how to make use of their own feedback system, and combines that with an actual understanding of how the equipment works, it’s possible to make significant gains on a budget.

 

On December 31, 2016 at 11:08 AM, lonbordin said:

Anders maintained with proper instruction and perfect practice anyone (without physical disabilities) can perform at an expert level with sufficient hours invested.

 

On December 31, 2016 at 10:58 AM, philw said:

given enough time we can become good at whatever sport it is. That's a liberating thought, and I think it's correct.

 

That may prove true for some activities, but skiing/snowboarding fall into a different category. 

We can practice as much as we like, but practice can’t change conformation, and that makes a huge difference if one wants to achieve something other than upper-intermediate levels of performance. 

Given the immense volume of misinformation available on how to ‘properly’ ski or snowboard, actual success can quite often be attributed to intuition and perseverance, not coaching.

 

On December 31, 2016 at 11:08 AM, lonbordin said:

Unfortunately for the lot of us... we don't have a nearby expert (or coach) that can provide the level of feedback to achieve the expert levels in our endeavors.

 

Fortunately for the lot of us, ‘modern’ technology has provided novel possibility for enhanced communication. And communication, both intrinsic and extrinsic, is a core component of learning.

All we have to do is figure out how to make use of what we have, to get what we want. 

 

 

 

[lonbordin]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

  On 12/31/2016 at 9:01 AM, lonbordin said: blah...blah... blah...

Mr. Beckmann-

We were so admiring your handiwork... nice to read your musings once again...  Forgive my non-scientific prose as I do tend to oversimplify when posting on BOL.  (Yes the irony, indeed.)

That said the science is pretty clear that the perfect practice paradigm leads to expertise on quite a gamut of activities.  We are likely not such special snowflakes after all...

I do agree that the majority of the forum are probably where they are due to perseverance...  I mean how many HB snowboard coaches are there??? A very small number indeed.

Mahalo!