Advantages of hardboot snowboarding?

[softbootsurfer]

Actually, they were All trying to Surf the Mountain, every one of them, every early attempt was for that Motivation, for that Feeling...That is Alpine Snowboarding and where it came from !!!

 

and Surfing was and is Carving, if you know what you are doing, as Skating was Carving so as to be ready to Surf... the whole Race scene started with the Euros who crossed over from Skiing and saw a Gateway to Stardom   or at least a few bucks...then of course Sims and Burton via Transworld kind of just took the whole thing over, as far as a direction the Public would be led...and here we are with People talking Accuracy and Precision while labeling SB as inadequate to Really Carve...Feel Better Now ?

 

There were NO Instructors in the Beginning, Not One and of course you don't need an Instructor to Smile...this thread is another example of discussing nothingness and what it means...If you really want to discuss advantages, then you would start with the conditions you are using the equipment on...as that is what should dictate what you are using, Jack and the Boys and Girls back East Need HB and Race sticks to be able to ride in their areas, while he goes to Jackson Hole and goes SB, I could have used HB and a nice Slalom stick yesterday as even here with the season ending, the warm temps, it can get a slick in places... Yes, I understand that and if I lived back East I would either get HB and a Racing stick or just quit altogether...but I live in Colorado and that makes a Huge Difference ...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Eh, it's a forum, people natter on about whatever.  If we were together in person we would just go riding and then have beers.

 

FWIW SBS I started back in those days of no instructors.  Self-taught on my local tobogganing hill on a Burton Elite with Sorels and ski boot liners, moved on to a 1710 Blade with the same boots.  I switched to hard boots for the simple reason that the soft boots and Sims binding combo just weren't up to the job at the speeds and terrain I enjoyed, and that was in the west (Banff) and have never looked back.  I had both a skiing and skating background at the time, but no surfing.

[xy9ine]

Seriously, the whole "why is the carving community so small" question is totally baffling...

 

haha; perfect. 

[b0ardski]

maybe long drawn out arguments over meaningless minutia are to blame

[Beckmann AG]

Actually,

 

 

 

Notes to self:

-Repair/recalibrate micro aggression proximity alarms prior to engaging in discussions of snowboarding on a snowboarding forum.

-Avoid any polysyllabic trigger words with ‘scientific’ overtones.

-Do not attempt to define, dissect, discuss, determine or otherwise 'suck the soul' out of any aspect of snowboarding.

-Do not quantify or qualify.

-Just don't, Ok?

Edited April 6, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[Beckmann AG]

Hey Mr B

 

I'll take one of those cigars!

 

What, and imperil your health? You seem a pleasant chap, kindly refrain.

 

Admittedly, if we were able to get a newly designed boot-binding that had the roll-axes exactly where it should be, it would be a beautiful thing.  I fear that I'll never see this product in my lifetime, which is truly a bummer.  I would love to be proven wrong, however!

 

It’s not that tough. The problem is that one cannot easily tune a boot suitable for the mass market. Furthermore, that tuning process is not suited to a user base challenged by the notion of heat-forming their own boot liners.

It takes time and attention to detail, and you need to start with appropriate materials. Also, it means acknowledging that where we are in the sport at this time, isn’t where we are meant to be.

Skiing, BTW, suffers from the same predicament, but the greater range afforded by the split platform allows for greater accommodation/delusion.

 

At the same time I have seen enough at Bomber over the years to believe that a new binding is always a possibility; is it not possible to improve upon the existing Sidewinder?  I wonder what is next?  For these reasons will gladly take getting as close as possible and consider myself and the community lucky! 

 

Many will disagree, but the SW is simply a sidebar to the larger conversation.

If, someone was so inclined, select parts of the SW platform could easily be incorporated into a system that allows the neophyte/demo-ist a smoother means of entry into our beloved niche sport. If you make the control inputs more intuitive, you immediately lower the barriers to entry. Having co-designed and thoroughly tested a number of successful prototypes for entry level snowboarding, I know, without a doubt, that when all of the variables are accounted for, the transition from ‘not riding’, to ‘riding’, is surprisingly delightful.

 

I have been a hardbooter for many years, but also a skater.  I agree that hardboots have a lot of advantages, besides kicking:), but I also think we can learn a lot from the skater in the video and some of the softboot carving guys; particularly for all mountain riding.  

 

I concur, especially with the ‘some’ qualifier. 

Much of my progress on snow, and in teaching, can be attributed to the study of movement analogs and a corresponding understanding of ‘physical’ limits for a given context.

Discussing the pros and cons of a given platform/interface, and reaching a determination of what works and why, may provide the insight required to nudge alpine riding closer to, but not into, the mainstream.

 

Or, we can get all tribal, and mock what we can’t/won’t understand.

 

 

[slopestar]

My mantra. Go fast/turn hard/don't suck...

[Beckmann AG]

maybe long drawn out arguments over meaningless minutia are to blame

Perchance, plentiful propellerhead pontification?

[JRAZZ]

If, someone was so inclined, select parts of the SW platform could easily be incorporated into a system that allows the neophyte/demo-ist a smoother means of entry into our beloved niche sport. If you make the control inputs more intuitive, you immediately lower the barriers to entry. Having co-designed and thoroughly tested a number of successful prototypes for entry level snowboarding, I know, without a doubt, that when all of the variables are accounted for, the transition from ‘not riding’, to ‘riding’, is surprisingly delightful.

 

 

I happen to be so inclined (and also have some ability to do so).  Can you suggest how to make said inputs more intuitive?  (PM me if you re interested in making something)

[softbootsurfer]

Wonder if one of the Advantages,  are the Boards associated typically with HB...I remember Mike Doyle saying he wished he would have tried a different stance on the Monoski in the mid 70's...at the sponsored Snowboard Downhill race at Milk in 86/87 there were actually a couple of Monoskis mounted Snowboard stance, with plates that were used...I have noticed that at the X Games now, the BX people are ripping way more Carves with their SB as the Boards are more sophisticated, seems logical that the Boards are actually a primary advantage, then again Mr. B what say U

[RCrobar]

Mr Beckman you have made a lot of good points, but this one really rings true to me.
 

Mr B Writes:

If, someone was so inclined, select parts of the SW platform could easily be incorporated into a system that allows the neophyte/demo-ist a smoother means of entry into our beloved niche sport. If you make the control inputs more intuitive, you immediately lower the barriers to entry

 

 

Erazz Writes:

I find it a challenge and that's enough for me but right now softboots are way more comfortable on everything that isn't an easy green run. Some seem to prefer hardboots period.

So why hardboots?

 

Look where this thread started, why has erazz's hardboot experience been so difficult?  Why do we always seem to hear similar stories?  Erazz already enjoys and is successful snowboarding in softboots, the skill is there.

Erazz's first hardbooting experience could not be more different than mine!  

Me ... Early 80's, early Burton Performer, Sorel snowboots with NO skiboot liner, riding the groomed greens in Fernie.  I tried my friends hardboot set up, switched at the top of a run, sitting in the snow.  Crazy Banana board, Rat Trap bindings with the cables made by I think a guy in Calgary, and Koflac mountaineering boots set at who knows what angles ... probably very flat like the Performer.  No lessons, no forum, no youtube ... I just strapped it on and rode it the same way I rode my skateboard or my Burton with Sorels.  I VIVIDLY  remember my first turns, my first run ... it was UNREAL!  The power, the speed, the sensation of faster, deeper, easier carving; INSTANTLY hooked for life!  

Why can't we make more riders first time hardboot experience better?  Is the reason my first time hardboot experience was so different because the softboot equipment is so much better and closer to Hardboots today?  Or, maybe it is because my first hardboot equipment was so bad that it was also so forgiving and free to my skateboard type rider movements?

My gut feeling tells me that if we had a hardboot set up that was 'closer' to the feeling of a 'traditional' softboot stance setup, more first time riders would more have more fun their first time out, would feel the power and would instantly know what hardboots have to offer.  Perhaps a set up like this could also work for all mountain HB riders as well.

Cheers
Rob   
 

Edited April 6, 2016 by RCrobar

[Jack M]

Hardboots are only difficult if you don't already know well how to carve your downhill edge in softboots.

[RCrobar]

Hi Jack

 

 

Hardboots are only difficult if you don't already know well how to carve your downhill edge in softboots.

 

 

 

I can only say that my experience lending out my alpine gear to some very talented softbooters and some newbies, with a variety of set ups, has lead me to a different conclusion; guess we will agree to disagree.

 

Cheers

Rob

[JRAZZ]

Interesting... 3 posts that are all in a way connected.

 

Back to front:

 

Hardboots are only difficult if you don't already know well how to carve your downhill edge in softboots.

 

 

I dunno.  I can carve in my softboot setup.  No, I don't get as low but the track is definitely a carve track.   Interestingly enough, when I started carving it was easier to skid.  Now, after a lot of carving I can't imagine skidding down the hill, even on double blacks.

 

 

 

 

Erazz's first hardbooting experience could not be more different than mine!  

 

Many factors could play into this: Age, risk aversion, skill or...

 

 

 

 

Wonder if one of the Advantages,  are the Boards associated typically with HB

 

 

So my SB setup is a NS Cobra, Burton Imperial boots, Burton Cartel bindings (angles are 27/6).  It's a light, forgiving and flexy setup.   Yes it can carve but it doesn't do so automatically.  You kinda have to lean in and hold the edge in the snow.  The reason I am interested in HB is because I feel this setup is not supportive enough.  

My HB setup is: Vokel Renntiger, Catek WC binding, Icelantic 1 degree boots (angles are 60/65).  Yes, it's a stiff and unforgiving setup.  This alone could be the difference.  

 

I've been switching between the two setups looking for the difference in how I ride.  I found that I use my back leg a lot with the soft setup.  I tried going to higher angles with the back leg but found that it starts to get hard to turn really quickly.   The feeling of the HS setup is like that, hard to turn at low speeds.  When the speed builds up it gets much easier.  

The other thing I noticed is how unforgiving the Vokel is.  Mistakes are not tolerated! (German accent here)  This causes me to keep the speeds low and makes it hard to lay down a carve.  I can get down the run but not having fun yet.  

 

I am left wondering what would happen if I put my HBs on a wide rockered board with lower angles...  

[Beckmann AG]

 

Look where this thread started, why has erazz's hardboot experience been so difficult?  Why do we always seem to hear similar stories?  

Me ... Early 80's, early Burton Performer, Sorel snowboots with NO ski boot liner...  I tried my friends hardboot set up,...  ... I just strapped it on and rode it...   I VIVIDLY  remember my first turns, my first run ... it was UNREAL!  The power, the speed...,

Why can't we make more riders first time hardboot experience better?  Is the reason my first time hardboot experience was so different because the softboot equipment is so much better and closer to Hardboots today?  Or, maybe it is because my first hardboot equipment was so bad that it was also so forgiving and free to my skateboard type rider movements?

My gut feeling tells me that if we had a hardboot set up that was 'closer' to the feeling of a 'traditional' softboot stance setup, more first time riders would more have more fun their first time out...

 

Do you recall learning to drive? While I taught myself to drive the trucks and tractor out in the hayfield, I 'learned' on the road in a VW Rabbit Diesel. It was docile, non-threatening, and encouraged you to put the pedal to the floor. Otherwise you never got anywhere.

One of the first things we learned was to adjust the seat and the mirrors. Personalize the control surfaces and means of realizing where we were with regard to other traffic.

 

Modern alpine equipment is responsive, in part because it's fun, and you can't very well market a boring snowboard.

At least not for use with hardboots.

 

You wouldn't put a novice driver in something with rear engine/rear drive, unless you wanted them to go off the first curve with the back end leading the way. 

Yet we put newbies on responsive gear, without proper relation to the control surfaces, where they're looking for the brakes and not the throttle. We shouldn't be surprised if they prefer/return to something less 'thrilling'.

 

Softboot gear, by comparison, will leak energy as the default mode of operation. Still fun, like a shiny mylar party balloon, but without the apprehension one might feel while out of control on alpine gear.

 

Driving the Rabbit, there was plenty of room for error. The car wasn't going to run me into the ditch and steal my lunch money.

 

That's one big advantage of soft boot gear.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Beckmann AG

[b0ardski]

The average skier isn't going to like world cup slalom skis, power and precision is not only rewarded but required. This is also true of most alpine/carve setups, the difference between a narrow hardboot setup and the average softy kit is a bit like the rabbit to sports car comparison.

It doesn't have to be that way, point your softies forward and practice carving on familiar gear, sneak up on it so to speak.

 

Hardboots already felt normal to me when I started "going sideways" and I still believe that accomplished skiers will pick up alpine easier than freestyle.

That said, I've been riding wide (25cm) twin tip boards with flexy hardshells at mid-range angles for 25+yrs and always felt skinny carve/race boards were a more difficult animal to tame than fakie on a freestyle board with forward angles. The advantages beyond edging power for me were durability(still using 20yr old binders) and ease of use on every style of board, laces in the snow sucked 30 yrs ago and they still do. my fingers hurt just thinking about it.

Edited April 7, 2016 by b0ardski

[RCrobar]

Hi Erazz

 

Erazz writes:

I am left wondering what would happen if I put my HBs on a wide rockered board with lower angles...

 

 

Check out what soft boot ripper Ryan Knapton decides to do when he tries hardboots for the first time.  I found his comments starting at the 1:25 mark very interesting as he goes though his thought process regarding trying hardboots for the first time.

Cheers
Rob Edited April 7, 2016 by RCrobar

[Jack M]

 

Hi Jack

 

 

 

I can only say that my experience lending out my alpine gear to some very talented softbooters and some newbies, with a variety of set ups, has lead me to a different conclusion; guess we will agree to disagree.

 

Cheers

Rob

 

 

Many talented softbooters do not actually carve, or do not carve their downhill edge.  If you know how to really carve in softboots, hardboots will either be no big deal, or a revelation.  Perhaps if they have never carved with forward facing angles on both feet, THAT might be the problem.  Look at that Ryan Knapton video above.  First day on hardboots and it's no big deal.  Hardboots were a revelation for me, because I had been carving in softboots on an alpine board with forward facing angles.

 

First time on hardboots for me was like this:

https://youtu.be/v3qlBM9vAW8?t=55s

[RCrobar]

Hi Jack

 

Jack Writes:
Perhaps if they have never carved with forward facing angles on both feet, THAT might be the problem.

Look at that Ryan Knapton video above.  First day on hardboots and it's no big deal.  Hardboots were a revelation for me, because I had been carving in softboots on an alpine board with forward facing angles.

 

I 100% agree with this, maybe we were saying the same thing?

Ryan's first day of carving is no big deal because his feet aren't at 60 degrees when he is accustomed to 15 degrees, 'Prior Learning' always plays a key role when someone is learning a new skill.  

In the video Ryan does not use the narrow alpine board, he said the shape and stance look dangerous! The guy is a ripper and he didn't think that very steep angles and a narrow board were a good idea for his first time out.  He wants to compare 'apples to apples' so he goes with what he knows!  He takes a board he knows, a stance he knows and experiments with hardboots and plates.  At the same time he instantly feels the power and the direct drive feeling of hardboots, even though his feet are at +15 and -15.  This is basically all I have been trying to suggest, take into account a softbooters prior experiences when sending them out for their first ever hard boot experience.

Rob

Edited April 7, 2016 by RCrobar

[bigwavedave]

...Perhaps if they have never carved with forward facing angles on both feet, THAT might be the problem.  Look at that Ryan Knapton video above.  First day on hardboots and it's no big deal.  

Ryan did try a "full alpine" set-up at ATC and the video was shown at the banquet. Basically Cory and Ryan traded equipment, and it was a very funny video, and maybe a bit humbling for Ryan. Not sure if there is a link to it somewhere.

[Corey]

It was Jim and Ryan that traded.  Wasn't it Jim's 180+ Rev or Proteus?  That's a heck of a way to start!  Ryan did very well.  

 

That was a fun clip!  

[JRAZZ]

 

My soft boots never quite feel tight enough and I have them pretty tight....

 

That pretty much sums it up for me.  My soft boots never quite feel supportive enough (I'm 220 lbs so I need some STIFF boots).

[bumpyride]

What you can do in all types of snow or conditions depends on several things: Board Choice, binding choice, boot choice and angle choice.

 

A full blown race board with a fairly stiff binding and stiff boots and steep close angles works well in a slalom course or just carving on the groomers.  The same set-up works poorly when off piste in the bumps or in powder.

 

An all-mountain board with with a softer nose and around 20 waist, a flexy binding, flexy boots with a BTS or walk mode, and angles that have some difference (15  to 18 degrees) eg. 60 x 42 works amazingly well in powder and bumps, and still does OK on groomers.

 

I have no problems with powder at Big Sky.  I use an old Burton Coil all mountain board proflex plastic bindings, Raichle 122s or 123s  60 x 42 angles, and it works just fine in a foot of new snow.  It's surfy when I want it to be and precise when I need it to be.

[Beckmann AG]

What you can do in all types of snow or conditions depends on several things: Board Choice, binding choice, boot choice and angle choice.

 

A full blown race board with a fairly stiff binding and stiff boots and steep close angles works well in a slalom course or just carving on the groomers.  The same set-up works poorly when off piste in the bumps or in powder.

You left out skill.

 

While this may be your experience, and while your experience may be typical, that does not make your experience a universal truth.  If it were, I would not have had so many happy days riding those very conditions on the equipment you describe as inappropriate.

 

Provided you have enough dexterity not to fold it permanently, a metal laminate race deck will work nicely in the bumps, specifically because it rebounds slower, and tends to flow through the rough, rather than fetching up on every little nook and cranny. Same thing in the crud and chop. 

 

Put that in the 'advantages' column. 

 

Can a different piece of gear make a difference? Absolutely.

 

But if you find yourself on the 'wrong' platform, temper your expectations and inputs, and you'll have a grand old time.

[Beckmann AG]

 

Ryan's first day of carving is no big deal because his feet aren't at 60 degrees when he is accustomed to 15 degrees, 'Prior Learning' always plays a key role when someone is learning a new skill.  

 

Prior learning is often a liability, particularly when the 'new' context is too similar to the 'old'.  I see this all the time with telemark, where novices struggle on account of their 'experience' skiing alpine.  Given that they are on skis, with plastic boots, the circumstances feel familiar, and so they do all the familiar things. And then they spin in circles, fall on their faces, and twist themselves into corkscrews.  Once they discard that prior learning, life gets better.

 

The fastest learners, be it snowboard or ski, bar none, are hockey players.

 He takes a board he knows, a stance he knows and experiments with hardboots and plates.  At the same time he instantly feels the power and the direct drive feeling of hardboots, even though his feet are at +15 and -15.  

Essentially raising the compression ratio and octane. Throttle response and power output improve using a familiar chassis and drivetrain.

 

This is basically all I have been trying to suggest, take into account a softbooters prior experiences when sending them out for their first ever hard boot experience.

A crucial difference between Ryan and the 'average' softbooter, is, as Jack suggests, that Ryan already knows what a carved turn 'looks' like, and therefore has little difficulty finding it among the spare change and pocket lint. The average softy is going to tear a hole in the pocket, and keep on looking until their trousers are rent asunder. In this case, their prior learning, and the movements they associate with 'snowboarding' are inappropriate to the more rigid interface and more responsive platform.

I will certainly agree to the value of prior learning, but have found that it's prior learning of a 'completely different' activity creatively linked to the 'new' activity that matters the most.