Sweat The Technique: The Root Cause of Ugly (Free) Riding?

[b0ardski]

As long as snow happens someone is gonna play in it.

Standing on a toboggan, or gliding on long skinny snowshoes doesn't require a system, but gathering the masses and marketing the activity does. The system will & does evolve/devolve/revolve but aint goin away any time soon.

 

Aesthetics are firmly embedded in the eye of the beholder, so me being a skier before snowboards existed I naturally went with pointing forward foot placement and buckle boots when learning to ride said toboggan.

There is absolutely an economic advantage for the snow schools and gear pushers to "one size fits all" I understand this but don't have to like it or think it's the best course.

 

I L ved my sx91equipe hardcore mountain slippers, and similar ease of use of flows, but buckle boots w/stepin plates rule the world now at least in this skiers eyes. Street skate aesthetic not so much

Edited April 29, 2015 by b0ardski

[Corey]

It's cool that such a discussion can come out of this thread. What is the future of snowboarding? That IS a pretty heavy topic. Skiing looked pretty unhealthy in comparison to the boom of snowboarding in the mid-90s, but it hung on and passed snowboarding in popularity again. I know many more people that used to snowboard but now ski than the opposite.

Fin had mentioned the difference between ski shops and snowboard shops. Ski shops seem to be more welcoming of children, geriatrics, and everyone inbetween. Snowboard shops - are you cool enough to even be in here? Come back once you're sticking front 5s. That's not helping the 30+ market.

That old Burton ad is awesome: "Will you still be riding when it's no longer cool?" We're all on alpine boards, which is pretty un-cool to the average snowboarder. I guess the answer is "Yes".

Complaining about new things is "symptomatic" of being over about 35, I'd say. That's a problem you can't cure.

That had me chuckling, then seriously thinking about it, then chuckling again. :) Sometimes the truth hurts a little.

[st_lupo]

Fin had mentioned the difference between ski shops and snowboard shops. Ski shops seem to be more welcoming of children, geriatrics, and everyone inbetween. Snowboard shops - are you cool enough to even be in here? Come back once you're sticking front 5s. That's not helping the 30+ market.

 

That reminds me of an article I ran across a few weeks back.  Hope it's not a repost: Can Snowboarding Be Saved?

 

I get the feeling that some folks here (maybe especially those that have been into snowboarding for a loooong time) see the modern crop of free-stylers and their rockered/ginsu'd boards as our wayward children.  The few posts that I've seen on softboot forums that even mention hardboot snowboards seem to indicate that those freestylers view hardboot snowboards as a completely foreign thing akin to the monoski (and they are generally likewise critical of the hardboot styles, especially EC).

Edited April 29, 2015 by st_lupo

[lordmetroland]

The features of modern gear, mentioned off the top, can't be the root cause of "Ugly" freeriding. The OP's three examples of "style", who came up in the heyday of shit gear, are proof of that.

I think your argument actually supports my hypothesis. Maybe their style/flow evolved, in part, because they were riding sh*t gear. And I suspect if you look at their preferred set-ups, neither Burt nor Haakonson would currently be riding a short sled with wavy edges and a wavy profile.

 

I don't know about any of this, it's just an observation I was testing. My big regret now is having sold my Lib Tech Skunk Ape HP. I wish I could ride it the same way I ride my Hazelwood to see if it responds the same way. I'm thinking it wouldn't. The funny thing is that I'd never have found Bomber or bought a Donek, etc. if I'd been able to find a mass-marketed board in excess of 170-180cm.

 

Don't we all want to help people ride under the chair and get hooted at?

I love this sentiment. Really love it. Maybe, as suggested earlier, it's just my advancing age and inflexibility in the face of change that makes it seem like there's not a lot of "hoot-able" riding out there. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place ("You want to know the source of ugly freeriding? Look in the mirror, dude!")?

Edited April 29, 2015 by lordmetroland

[slopestar]

It was impossible to find a straight camber board for myself for the last 5 years. Thank goodness for Hardbooting and companies like Bomber/Donek/Coiler/Etc... For not forgetting about us... I have been on a magic board all season and without Bomber, I would have been struggling on gaper gear instead of pushing my abilities

[Allee]

My big regret now is having sold my Lib Tech Skunk Ape HP. I wish I could ride it the same way I ride my Hazelwood to see if it responds the same way. I'm thinking it wouldn't.

 

Ha. I went to jibber camp a few years ago for the lulz (it was actually super fun) and day one after lunch we all got a Burton demo board to try out. So I grabbed a Feelgood, because I admit I was curious about the rocker thing.

 

We all strapped in, and then the instructor decided that the boardercross course would be a great place to try these things out. Right. I was strapped in duck, which I'm not stoked with anyway, usually riding my soft gear feet-forward. So we started off, and every time I tried to put an edge into the snow, all this stupid board wanted to do was spin around the centre. Totally unexpected and very, very scary. I don't know if it would have been any better with positive angles, but given that I can actually carve (after a fashion) both ways duck on my own soft gear, I'm pretty sure it wasn't me. How the hell is anyone supposed to learn to ride on something that just wants to turn circles all the time?

Later the same season I was at Fernie, riding the lift with a friend and a friend of hers, who was a lifelong skier. We admired his skis, and he was telling us his son was a Salomon rep and had loaned him the planks for a couple of weeks - telling him that rockered skis were all that and a bag of chips. My friend asked what he thought. His answer - "They're ******* shit. They don't turn worth crap". But I guess at least they were pretty.

 

The other thing that bugs me is that board shops are all about putting people on damn skateboards. Modern snowboards have tiny sidecuts and a woeful running length purely by design, and yet at 5ft9 and 150lb, the monkeys in the shops are telling me that I need to be riding a 148. I consider that my 158 is barely long enough to be stable at speed, much less anything shorter. if you're riding something that's as squirelly as hell when you put it on edge, you're not going to stay there very long ... which might explain why the people at my local hill are either straightlining mach schnell, or grooming the hill on their way down.

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2015 by Allee

[markbvt]

The way I read the opening thread was that there is a theory about why people that ride for a while don't get more stylish.

 

My theory is that most people's riding simply plateaus at a certain point. Constant improvement requires constant practice, and the vast majority of people aren't dedicated enough to the sport to be riding that much. For that majority of riders that just wants to have fun those 5 or 10 days a year they get on the snow (if that), the lack of stylish riding is no surprise at all.

 

But I do suspect that the teaching methodology, gear, and setup that's been fashionable for some time now does play a big role. Back in the '90s, the common wisdom was that snowboarding had a very steep initial learning curve, but once you learned how to link your turns, you were able to progress very quickly. Stances were almost never duck; you saw a lot more 30/15 than 15/-15. Good instructors had a well-thought-out series of exercises to teach students how to use their edges, how to position their bodies, and how to get the board to respond through a turn. I haven't observed any recent snowboard lessons, but it sounds like they're much less effective at teaching snowboarding's fundamentals, allowing the currently-trendy gear to mask lack of technique. But at the same time, that gear prevents decent technique from developing.

 

 

Not sure how we got into motorcycle comparisons...

 

Several of us are avid motorcyclists as well as snowboarders, obviously. The funny thing is that there are actually a surprising number of parallels between the two sports.

 

This has turned out to be a fascinating thread.

 

--mark

[Beckmann AG]

The system cannot run to failure. It's snowboarding, and therefore immune to failure.

Depends a bit on how one chooses to define ‘failure’. Unless the goal is to devalue an asset, a steady decline in commerce generally isn’t considered a success.

Is there a link between declining participation and the dominant visual image?

Most likely.

 

 

99% of lessons are to beginners. If they can pull off a few turns by the end, mission accomplished. If not, they might not be back. Big deal.

While lesson traffic has always been weighted toward the novice end of the scale,  there was a time when more advanced riders took instruction, in far greater numbers than they do now.  Loss of potential trade suggests a need for some serious introspection, more so than casual dismissal.    

 

 

 

There's no "systemic" problem in the snow sports industry because there is no system.

 

Darned language barrier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/system

 

Rather it is an industry which exists to serve a market.

 

How quaint.

(http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/quaint)

Despite the obvious co-dependency between consumer and the industry, the industry clearly exists to serve itself.

 

 

For example: Rear entry ski boots came and went as a result of simple market forces, not because of any system or plan.

 

Marketing per se is a ‘market force’, not to be discounted as a prime mover. 

Skiers didn’t demand rear-entry boots, they sought a boot that was more convenient.  The rear-entry shell was marketed as the solution, and a great number of consumers bought the concept. Those boots left the market after several iterations, in part because the convenience was always overbalanced by the lack of ‘performance’.

In short, they didn’t live up to the hype.

The continued availability of overlap closure boots hastened the demise of the rear-entry concept, as did the obvious use of those boots by high-end athletes.  

 

One could surmise that snowboard design is following a similar path, hampered a bit by the general retail absence of ‘conventional’ boards and the codified disdain for directional binding configuration.

 

 

My theory is that most people's riding simply plateaus at a certain point. Constant improvement requires constant practice, and the vast majority of people aren't dedicated enough to the sport to be riding that much.

 

Riders ‘plateau’ when their preferred combination of movements cannot be executed fast enough in the time required.  Then they try harder, until they either accept their limitations and just get on with it, or they step back to re-evaluate their approach.

Performing at a higher level demands a reductive, rather than an additive process.  In other words, if you have very little time to get a job done, you stand a better chance of success if that job involves fewer discrete movements.

Economy of motion begins as a philosophy, which becomes practice.

 

 

The way I read the opening thread was that there is a theory about why people that ride for a while don't get more stylish

 

The hypothesis is valid, but the sticking point seems to be the use of that slippery word ‘style’. Style suggests identity and freedom, both of which are off-limits.

 

There most certainly is a causal link between what you ride, how it’s configured, and the image you project.

 

To suggest otherwise is either delusion or willful ignorance.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Beckmann AG

[Vizman]

I have to say, I am really enjoying this thread. It's a great discussion and one that goes to the heart of the sport. 

 

 

Back in the '90s, the common wisdom was that snowboarding had a very steep initial learning curve, but once you learned how to link your turns, you were able to progress very quickly. Stances were almost never duck; you saw a lot more 30/15 than 15/-15. Good instructors had a well-thought-out series of exercises to teach students how to use their edges, how to position their bodies, and how to get the board to respond through a turn. I haven't observed any recent snowboard lessons, but it sounds like they're much less effective at teaching snowboarding's fundamentals, allowing the currently-trendy gear to mask lack of technique. But at the same time, that gear prevents decent technique from developing.

 

 

Very important point here about learning curve I think. I'd forgotten just how hard those first days and weeks were. I worked three seasons in the early 90s and half way through my first tried snowboarding for one afternoon (reluctantly giving up valuable ski time!) and after two hours of continually catching edges and being thrown onto my bum, knees and hips I thought it was impossible. By the end of the day I was bruised and battered. It wasn't until two seasons later I gave it another go. This time I was a bit more determined and had a little help from an ESF instructor that helped me through those first few painful days of trying to understand edge control and avoid being catapulted all over the place.  It's true that at that time it was generally considered that the first week of snowboarding was going to hurt and seeing people with a broken wrist from being thrown forward was not uncommon. Indeed, because you were often being thrown forward off the toeside edge and cushioning the fall with both arms outstretched on more than one occasion I saw people going home from their one week snow holiday with both wrists in plaster. That is definitely not fun!

 

When you also take into consideration that most people only have a 5 - 10 days on snow a year and often as a single holiday, then I can understand how the 'fun factor' and quicker and easier access to the sport becomes very important. And I suppose that's where modern equipment and teaching methods really help. I hadn't thought of it like this before. 

 

What seems to have got lost though along the way is the progression to understanding better edge control and the introduction of more advanced equipment in lessons (e.g full camber) as riders progress to open up other riding opportunities,. For a beginner a longer board, tuned edges and full camber can be your absolute enemy, spitting you out everywhere. But once you start to get the hang of riding they become the very thing that opens the door to a better level of control, to power, grace and different riding possibilities, irrespective or whether you are on hard or soft boots and on piste or in the park.

 

Looking back I I also now realise I had the advantage of a whole season to work away at my riding and whilst it's true that not every rider has the need or desire to progress their riding technique beyond a certain point I believe there are still many out there that would but that simply don't have the time or structure to do so. If you only have one week a year to enjoy your riding (and what is often an expensive week) it's difficult to put aside a lot of time within that for the advancement of technique, especially as the lesson structure for more refined technique doesn't really exist. After learning 'the basics' a lot of snowboarders seem to make it up as they go a long. Is that by choice or because the next level of instruction is not yet out there?

Edited April 30, 2015 by Vizman

[SunSurfer]

Turn the question round. What's the root cause of beautiful snowboarding? or skiing? or any physical activity done with style, grace and ease?

 

For me, it was the beauty of an alpine rider's style at Mt Hutt (NZ) many years ago that turned me onto the path to alpine snowboarding.

Prior to that, I skiied. I wanted to get down the mountain, on pretty much any slope, go fast, and master the mountain.

Since then, the goal is different, an aesthetic I keep working towards. I stepped away from the mainstream, and took a different path, and I expect to be following this path for as long as I ride. I'm making slow progress towards my goal.

 

I'm part of a winter sports club here in New Zealand. It has a large communal accommodation building in Ohakune, at the base of Mt Ruapehu. All the members are keen on being on the snow, on skis or boards. Yet none of them have the same goal in their riding. They want to be in the mountains, they want to ride with their friends and share the experience, the kids want to play in the terrain park, some want to go ski-touring and skin up to the crater lake and cruise down to the Whakapapa side. Parents want to teach their kids and see the joy and sense of achievement that comes from beginning to master these physical skills. Some want to ride fast and feel the thrill of being on the edge of control and the frisson of risk, some seek untracked snow at and beyond the limits of the field. And these are all completely valid reasons and goals for going skiing and boarding. If your skill level allows you to do what you want to do on the mountain, what is the motivation to change, to extend the skillset, to do the analysis and practice necessary? Naah, I'd much rather shred with my mates!

 

So I sit in the chairlift and watch the riders going past below and beside me. And every so often I see someone ride past in a way that is clearly beautiful riding, more likely a skier than a boarder here, because good carving of either sort are very rare indeed in New Zealand. I generally ride by myself because I'm constantly seeking the slopes and space to practice. Now, in each run, the journey has become the goal, not the liftline. I want to hear the sound of my edge cutting snow, to feel the pull in my gut in the depth of the turn, the rhythm of the dance from edge to edge, to feel like my board and I have become one as I dive into turn after turn after turn......

 

I aspire to beauty in my own riding, and I enjoy beautiful riding by anyone. Because I look for beauty, I judge some people to ride less than beautifully. That's aesthetics for you.

[Rob Stevens]

Hey Erik B (do you still see Rakim from time to time?)... Our "Steady decline in commerce" is better laid at the door of cost to participate and the fact that skiing is rad, too (points you also made). The statement that it's not as visually appealing as it once was could be spun to have some accuracy... In early days is was so shockingly new to anyone looking, it just had to be compelling. Now? You have to be a pretty unreal rider to turn any heads. Ultimately, however, all sports live on via the interest shown in them, from a base of real desire to participate. I think that snowboarding has that base and am not at all worried that it will go to anything even approaching 0.

 

Instruction is one avenue where I likely have experience even beyond you, Erik... Most particularly in the administrative side. As you have, I have run schools, opening not only COP in Calgary, but also leading the first school on Whistler, both in the 80's. In the 90's, I ran levels 1 and 2 in the central region of Canada. In the aughts, I left that job, and became president of our national body. I served the longest term at the head of CASI to that point, or since... Almost 9 years. With that bullshit out of the way, I can say absoloutely that there have never been more riders in advanced lessons than there are now. To say that there has been a decline from "far greater numbers" in the early days, to much less today is just wrong and is not supported by data. Regionally, and this might address an earlier comment, about not being able to find a decent novice-or-beyond lesson in NY state, this is very likely due to migration. Higher end instructors, in my experience, do not stay in smaller areas. They seek bigger terrain and better work experiences. In Canada, they go to Whistler, the Big Three in Alberta, some of the very well-paying private clubs in Ontario, or the better resorts of Quebec. If you go to one of these places, you will find outstanding instruction at all levels. When I say "outstanding", I mean right standing out. If my earler comment appeared dismissive, I was really just trying to keep it a simple statement. That is to say that the beginner lesson is the portal through which all manner of folks tend to travel. Some will get it, and some won't. Advances in tech, better trained instructors and immacualtely prepared pitches help, but all are secondary to the new riders ultimate desire to acheive. Today, those desires are pulled in more directions that ever and sticking with something hard to master is not really most peoples trip.

 

Thankfully, people can become ultimately happy at all sorts of different stages in snowboarding. As was mentioned earlier, some just want to ride around with frends, on a sunny day. Some just do a few runs with their shirts off and go to the bar. Some want to improve and get better, but aren't really frothing for it, while others again want to get on the fastest track to shred possible. It takes all kinds. It's nice that not everyone is frothing, as I'd see more people out on motosleighs, tracking up pow I need to be perfect.

 

Style... I was coutered earler, where it was said that my statement supported the idea that "style" came from shit gear. We're both right. It did. Think about Craigs arms... What he was doing was about the most esthetic way you could use that much rotary force to turn. Most people maneuvered their slabs by throwing arms. He did it in a pleasing way. The reality is that it was a needed component, as the board didn't really want to come around on its own. Would Craig still do that if he were alive today? Probably not. In his last years, a degree of the rotation and overall openness to his direction of travel was still there, but he didn't need to try as hard, because the equipment was working much better. Now, an expert rider can buy a board that will do a lot of the work for him or her. As Erik B has said, you don't need to do much to make a good turn, but make the right, subtle moves (I'm definitely paraphrasing). If it matters to any of you, I'd say one of the best profiles for freeriding and free carving is the early rise nose, to camber from the front foot back to the tail. Intuitive initiation, a bit of terrain smoothing through the noses more gradual contact to the snow, and its inclination to rise in pow, but lots of pop in the meat of the turn.

 

As for what's marketed by the industry as "bleeding edge", some of you might have noticed that a riders abilty to turn a board is that thing now. As such, camber and length, as a front-line retail choice, will return.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Rob Stevens

[snowmatic]

Style? Style changed a lot (even on raceboards)!

While Style was once young, fresh and sportive, now it's more clumsy than ever before.

Well snowboard sales declines worldwide. So the snowboard industry is interessted to get new people for riding snowboards. With the help of rocker-build boards (but rocker ski too on ski industry) rider which are not that interessted to ride a snowboard (and learn all/a lot of it) can ride now easy down a slope. Even them which are less sportive or limp.

How we can recognize that:

Seek for Advice on getting a new board in any snowboard forum of America or Europe and read at which body-weight they ask for advice. 70-80 % of them are at around 180-220 lbs. Thats very heavy for young, fresh and sportive people. I don't think any of them are Schwarzenegger's. There was a time, average weight of snowboarders had been at 140-165 lbs and for teenager less.

As I wrote on my post before, snowboarding became with spreading of rocker and magnetraction more boring then ever before.

And that takes some serious effect! Let me give you some examples:

• European bigest snowboard freestyle event ( www.freestyle.ch ) is canceled now for 2015 due to missing sponsors. Tell me which company like to do sponsoring action sports, where the followers are limp and plump.
• Same thing to TTR. We had once a least six 6-star events every winter (highest level). Now it remains four 6-star events. X-games wasn't a 6-star event the Years before. So if we count true 6-star events, there remains only 3 of 6, thats the half! As I know from one which was hold for many Years, they loss main sponsor too. No other company had interesst.

[lordmetroland]

Hey Erik B (do you still see Rakim from time to time?)...

 

Yeah boyeeeeeeeee!!! Bustin' Follow the Leader right now. Beckmann was the man behind the turntables? That's dope!

 

...that there have never been more riders in advanced lessons than there are now.

 

Interesting. I wonder if this is true in CO as well? I've only ridden a couple of areas this year but don't recall seeing anything beyond beginner lessons, In all fairness, I'm not sure Loveland would be the place most people would think to go for advanced snowboard instruction (the less people think about Loveland for anything is fine by me). Maybe Breckenridge or Vail?

 

Now, an expert rider can buy a board that will do a lot of the work for him or her. As Erik B has said, you don't need to do much to make a good turn, but make the right, subtle moves (I'm definitely paraphrasing).

 

I'm not sure I have the requisite physical awareness to analyze and diagnose my movements as I'm making them. I'm all for economy of motion, I just have no idea what I'm doing that's superfluous. This is going to take some serious meta-riding next time I'm out, which may be tomorrow with my six-year old skiing daughter. I should have plenty of time to contemplate my physical movements as she wedge/parallels down after me.

 

As for what's marketed by the industry as "bleeding edge", some of you might have noticed that a riders abilty to turn a board is that thing now. As such, camber and length, as a front-line retail choice, will return.

 

Should be interesting to see if this prediction holds. I'd love to be able to pluck an updated Lib Tech Doughboy Shredder off the rack.

 

Tell me which company like to do sponsoring action sports, where the followers are limp and plump.

 

Coincidentally, that was my handle when I fronted the un-flowin'-est rap posse ever; MC Limp n' Plump. Never really caught on.

[b0ardski]

Rob Stevens, on 30 Apr 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:

As for what's marketed by the industry as "bleeding edge", some of you might have noticed that a riders abilty to turn a board is that thing now. As such, camber and length, as a front-line retail choice, will return.

I think it will,

 

 

''Should be interesting to see if this prediction holds. I'd love to be able to pluck an updated Lib Tech Doughboy Shredder off the rack.'

light weight monster pow board that carves well with 6 inch tall reverse sidecut powder tips and Pre magic mogul ski graphics will require 2k of custom incentive.

I paid $200 for my demo "shalom" grocer in '92

Edited May 1, 2015 by b0ardski

[Beckmann AG]

In early days is was so shockingly new to anyone looking, it just had to be compelling. Now? You have to be a pretty unreal rider to turn any heads.

 

Loud action will always trap the eye. That’s often referred to as ‘spectacle’.  The X-games qualify, as does a train wreck. 

In the early days, the attraction wasn’t the visual appeal of the riding itself. It was the appeal of being different; outside the norm, regardless of what it looked like.  That there were positive sensations associated with two feet on one platform ensured that riding would become more than a fad. 

In the early days, there was a lot of gangly arm waving and bodily contortion.  Then the boards improved, and with that, the image. This thread was launched with the suggestion that, at least to some observers, the image has regressed.   

 

To turn heads in the present, one must simply ride with obvious competency, rather than superfluous noise.

 

Instruction is one avenue where I likely have experience even beyond you…

 

Until such time as I’ve researched your CV, I’m not about to make any claims one way or the other.

 

To say that there has been a decline from "far greater numbers" in the early days, to much less today is just wrong and is not supported by data.

The decline in snowboarding attendance in recent years has been remarked upon, both inside and outside the trade. Granted, one fairly large destination resort doesn’t qualify as a bellwether, but the numbers I’ve seen day to day, year to year, isn’t encouraging.

FYI, when I typed 'the early days', I wasn't referring to 1985.

 

Regionally, and this might address an earlier comment, about not being able to find a decent novice-or-beyond lesson in NY state, this is very likely due to migration. Higher end instructors, in my experience, do not stay in smaller areas. They seek bigger terrain and better work experiences…  If my earler comment appeared dismissive, I was really just trying to keep it a simple statement. That is to say that the beginner lesson is the portal through which all manner of folks tend to travel. Some will get it, and some won't. Advances in tech, better trained instructors and immacualtely prepared pitches help, but all are secondary to the new riders ultimate desire to acheive. Today, those desires are pulled in more directions that ever and sticking with something hard to master is not really most peoples trip..

 

As with ‘style’, the evaluation of market trends and the ‘forces’ behind them can be extremely subjective.

 

 

Thankfully, people can become ultimately happy at all sorts of different stages in snowboarding. As was mentioned earlier, some just want to ride around with frends, on a sunny day. Some just do a few runs with their shirts off and go to the bar. Some want to improve and get better, but aren't really frothing for it, while others again want to get on the fastest track to shred possible. It takes all kinds. 

 

Exactly.  Each individual should be provided the best means to craft their identity, to achieve their vision of who they want to be in the mountain environment.  That suggests a greater diversity of both gear and teaching ideology, as opposed to the apparent homogeneity and direction available today.

 

…camber and length, as a front-line retail choice, will return.

 

And they'll be marketed as ‘reverse rocker/directional’, just as soon as the greater number of consumers has forgotten what 'camber' and 'direction' in the first place. 'Novelty' is marketable, even when it isn't.

 

The resurgence in 'style' will then validate the theory put forth in the original post.

[Beckmann AG]

 

I'm not sure I have the requisite physical awareness to analyze and diagnose my movements as I'm making them. I'm all for economy of motion, I just have no idea what I'm doing that's superfluous. This is going to take some serious meta-riding next time I'm out, which may be tomorrow with my six-year old skiing daughter. I should have plenty of time to contemplate my physical movements as she wedge/parallels down after me.

 

Listen to a familiar piece of music and try to hear the silence between the notes.

 

Most people are more sensitive to what they do than they realize.  It’s largely a matter of focus, and choosing a context that provides the time to actually collect and process what is going on.

 

Establish your baseline by simply standing on your board and doing nothing.  Then start to glide, paying attention to how that movement commenced, then the first actions you make to affect that movement.  Carry on from there, verifying that you are, in fact, actually doing what you think you are doing.

[lordmetroland]

light weight monster pow board that carves well with 6 inch tall reverse sidecut powder tips and Pre magic mogul ski graphics will require 2k of custom incentive.

I paid $200 for my demo "shalom" grocer in '92

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've commented on your Shalom Grocer. I'm straining against one of the Commandments right now. Those photos mock me, transporting me back to seeing that board for the first time on the rack at the Gasthaus Eichler sports shop and thinking, "this is the coolest board ever." And not having the funds to buy one. You're a lucky man.

 

 

 

Oh, you didn't...

 

PUPPET SHOW

                AND

                 snowboarding

[Rob Stevens]

What Beckmann said about tailoring the gear and lesson to the type of client menas that anyone here with a friend who wants to snowboard should tell them to take a private lesson, or nothing.

Thanks for the Tap... Puppet Show and snowboarding... That's good.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Rob Stevens

[Neil Gendzwill]

What Beckmann said about tailoring the gear and lesson to the type of client menas that anyone here with a friend who wants to snowboard should tell them to take a private lesson, or nothing.

Thanks for the Tap... Puppet Show and snowboarding... That's good.

I think a private is the only option for most here, even for a softie lesson.  I don't think the level of the "advanced" group lessons is what we would call advanced, unless things have changed a lot recently.

[slopestar]

I want to do this next winter. Put a group together at Mammoth and clinic up for a weekend. Anybody interested? Coaching from one morning with JHG changed my riding and opened doors I never would have stepped through. I can't say enough about how beneficial taking a lesson from a very experienced rider can be. I'm ready for another lesson Coach...

Edited May 1, 2015 by slopestar

[Duke]

Hmmmmmm....reading this long thread I guess I'm out on the fringe.  Perhaps because I haven't mastered carving, but I still think riding a fat-nosed, rocker, pow board in pow where my edge does not hit anything solid is the ultimate ride.  It is also the most elusive and most difficult to find.  To me, that is beauty.  Not that a perfect carve isn't.....but a perfect pow carve.....that is the ticket.  Off piste....i love a rocker.  And....reading here I guess I'm solo in that opinion as so many of you seem to think rocker boards are ruining the sport.  ??

[pmorita]

Hi Duke,

Good point.  If we had even one day a year with knee deep powder I would pick up a second/third board to make the most of it.  I spent a season in Steamboat working in a snowboard shop in the 90s and experienced what you are talking about one or two days a week.  We would ride the longest, widest thing we could find at the time.  I know that what I am talking about with equipment and lessons not helping the current state of the sport is focused on our East Coast, hard packed snow. 

On the last day of the season this year I saw someone pull up with a brand new swallow tail fish board with plate bindings.  I don't think it gets more specialty than that so cheers to that guy.  He didn't ride very well though but it was not due to equipment.  Thanks for bringing another view point into the discussion.  When I get a bigger house I would love to line the walls with split boards, everything I used to ride and maybe a Burton Backhill.  

[b0ardski]

You're not on the fringe Duke, your right there in the middle of the masses, buying a rockered board (because that's the norm) to keep the tip up in bottomless pow even though it's very rarely found where most people spend most of thier on snow time. The only times I ever had an issue keeping the tip up on a cambered board in deep heavy snow, I bump the binders back a bit and bang, no more pearling or back leg burn.

Some of us may come off as rocker bashers but that's because, speaking for myself at least, many years of experience leaning on the front of cambered board to "load the spring" and get some response out of it is what I'm used to. I miss that when on a rockered board. I have a new venture split rocker/flat/rocker profile and I was worried that I wouldn't like it in anything but this elusive never touch bottom snow you speak of, but the odin (reputation as a stiff pow board) surprised me at it's responsiveness and how well it held an edge. That is, as long as I stayed centered and didn't expect the tip to push back when I got a bit forward in the bumps, some thing I just expect from all my other boards.

As to the "perfect pow carve" that can be done on any old bent piece of plywood, on cord not so much.

 

This rather windy road of a thread really boils down to "beauty in the eye of the beholder" as much as the narrowing of style the duckfooted rocker revolution the main stream industry has embraced and pushed onto the masses, creating the afore mentioned "heelside warriors".

Edited May 2, 2015 by b0ardski

[Duke]

And.....if it makes anyone feel better.....it is true that my beloved K2 Ultra Dream is not good on groomers. Lack of camber definitely noticeable! A specialty board that doesn't get used much.

 

I will take exception to something you said though b0ardski.   The beautiful pic of a nice pow carve you posted in the thread about what to ride in pow......I don't think you would have created such "art" on any old piece of wood. :) :)  

[lordmetroland]

And....reading here I guess I'm solo in that opinion as so many of you seem to think rocker boards are ruining the sport.  ??

 

Maybe my posts are making me come off as something of a Luddite? A couple years ago I bought a Lib Tech Skunk Ape HP 170 with all the new tech/marketing fluff and rode it for a couple seasons. I liked it fine as an all-around board. A bit chattery at speed, but performed pretty well in most conditions (I will not profess to having a particularly refined palate when it comes to these things). Within the past 15 months, I've acquired three larger boards - all camber - and sold the Lib, not because I didn't like the wavy edges or wavy profile, but because I couldn't really envision a situation where I'd rather be riding it more than the other three. And I think they suit my style of riding better than the Lib.

 

After mulling on this in the past week, I think the newer board shape "advances" aren't ruining the sport, just leading it to a place that may cut off certain avenues of experience to a percentage of riders. Maybe the allure of snowboarding isn't in the turn anymore, but in the trick? If that's the case, my boards are the one's ruining the sport. I defy even the hardiest rider to butter that damn Hazelwood...