Vizman

I think for many that's definitely the case, both are valid avenues to follow. My hope for the future is that we will start to see them coexist in riders and valued equally, so we'll see big hits off kickers interlinked with majestic carving.

I have to say, I am really enjoying this thread. It's a great discussion and one that goes to the heart of the sport. Very important point here about learning curve I think. I'd forgotten just how hard those first days and weeks were. I worked three seasons in the early 90s and half way through my first tried snowboarding for one afternoon (reluctantly giving up valuable ski time!) and after two hours of continually catching edges and being thrown onto my bum, knees and hips I thought it was impossible. By the end of the day I was bruised and battered. It wasn't until two seasons later I gave it another go. This time I was a bit more determined and had a little help from an ESF instructor that helped me through those first few painful days of trying to understand edge control and avoid being catapulted all over the place. It's true that at that time it was generally considered that the first week of snowboarding was going to hurt and seeing people with a broken wrist from being thrown forward was not uncommon. Indeed, because you were often being thrown forward off the toeside edge and cushioning the fall with both arms outstretched on more than one occasion I saw people going home from their one week snow holiday with both wrists in plaster. That is definitely not fun! When you also take into consideration that most people only have a 5 - 10 days on snow a year and often as a single holiday, then I can understand how the 'fun factor' and quicker and easier access to the sport becomes very important. And I suppose that's where modern equipment and teaching methods really help. I hadn't thought of it like this before. What seems to have got lost though along the way is the progression to understanding better edge control and the introduction of more advanced equipment in lessons (e.g full camber) as riders progress to open up other riding opportunities,. For a beginner a longer board, tuned edges and full camber can be your absolute enemy, spitting you out everywhere. But once you start to get the hang of riding they become the very thing that opens the door to a better level of control, to power, grace and different riding possibilities, irrespective or whether you are on hard or soft boots and on piste or in the park. Looking back I I also now realise I had the advantage of a whole season to work away at my riding and whilst it's true that not every rider has the need or desire to progress their riding technique beyond a certain point I believe there are still many out there that would but that simply don't have the time or structure to do so. If you only have one week a year to enjoy your riding (and what is often an expensive week) it's difficult to put aside a lot of time within that for the advancement of technique, especially as the lesson structure for more refined technique doesn't really exist. After learning 'the basics' a lot of snowboarders seem to make it up as they go a long. Is that by choice or because the next level of instruction is not yet out there?

Thanks, I have come across them, but I'll look into it in more detail. Apologies if anything said comes across as smug, it's not meant that way. Am just genuinely interested in the topic under discussion.

You're welcome! (assuming you're not being sarcastic, that is! I have to ask, I'm British, we put sarcasm everywhere) I loved my UPS boots, though sadly no longer have them. Absolutely. It's magical when you see someone with technique that you admire. I instantly then want to go and hunt them down on the mountain and see more.

I think part of the problem is that most people don't get to experience anything other than soft boot, rocker set ups now and so don't know what it feels like to be able to confidently to hold an edge and hence don't even realise they are missing something. We were almost better off in the early 90s when for most (at least in Europe) the first snowboarding experience generally involved ski boots and plate bindings. At least this gave people the experience of what it is to hold an edge and even carve a little. From there people made their choice to either go down the soft or hard boots route. Winter 92/93 I was lucky enough to be working a season in Morzine, France, and spent a lot of time up at Avoriaz, which was already embracing the snowboard 'revolution'. The fantastic thing at that time was that on the mountain there was probably an equal split of soft and hard boot set ups, in fact there may have been more of the later as most lessons were taught in hard boots. Anyone wanting to take up the sport either as a newbie or transitioning from skiing could try out a variety of set ups. Looking back I realise it was a hard boaters heaven (though never would have seen it as that, because at the time they simply existed in equal measure alongside soft boots), I could hire a Burton 5 one day, an Oxbow the next and then a K2 or Hot the day after (and all asyms of course!). And then if you wanted you could do the same with a variety of soft boot set ups. So people had much more choice both in terms of the equipment they could hire and the type of boarding they saw out on the slopes. And I think that latter point is very important. These days most people just don't get to see much variety of technique or equipment. For me it was a no brainer. I tried soft boots for an hour and couldn't stand the lack of edge control and so went out and bought myself a pair of UPS boots and began my carving journey. Another point I notice, as someone who is returning after a prolonged absence is that there used to be what I would call a 'middle ground' of hard boot riding technique that lay between the 0 degree or duck foot soft boot stance and the steeper angles that were starting to develop in the racing community, but I struggle to find much about it now. Early on I remember trying some stiffer boards and steeper binding angles but it didn't work for me and so settled I down with to an Oxbow asym and more mellow binding angles, probably something like 30/15 and had a blast. From what I can see this middle ground of hard boot riding seems to have disappeared somewhat. Is that true? I know the technique differed from racing technique and am sure I read somewhere on the Carvers Almanac that it was a European style that eventually fell by the wayside as racing/ extreme carving techniques took hold but I can't find that article anymore. It definitely emphasised it as developed by European riders and I think one of the main difference was the direction of the shoulders. Any how, I guess the main points I making here is that this thread has helped me realise a) how lucky I was to have my formative years of snowboarding back then when there was so much more choice available and much less pressure to go in any particular direction and b) how much healthier the sport was in terms of diversity in comparison to now. These days everything seems to be drowned out by what I would call the 'Red Bull' view of life, i.e what ever it is, just do it bigger, faster, bolder and higher, regardless of how dangerous or how lacking in aesthetics it is, which is a pity. But hopefully people will tire of that and the love of something more graceful (yet just as powerful) will return. Here's hoping . . :-)

I hope you're right Mark, it would make such a refreshing change.

That's a +1 from me too. Infact with all these extreme decants, I know if I'd taken two or more hours to climb to the top of some great mountain, I'd certainly try taking longer than 30 secs to get down it! Missing out all that snow and potential turns just seems like such a waste. But what surprises me the most is how many people out there don't see it that way. I've had lots of discussions about it and to many it's all about the speed, the 'gnar, regardless of what it looks like. The straighter the better it seems - to me that's just a waste of a good mountain.

Fascinating thread and some really good points.. As someone who is returning to snowboarding after a long break - the last time was in '97- I've been really surprised at how little the core techniques of turning, control and aesthetics have moved on in the mass market, indeed it would seem in many ways they have gone backwards. Outside of the carving community there seems to be little interest in on piste control, grace and the simple art of holding an edge. Most people either haven't seen anything different or don't want to put the time in to learn these techniques, and as discussed the market seems to be driving things in the other direction. I asked a similar question on a UK skiing thread recently - 'Freeride tour and extreme skiing - ugly or majestic' - http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=118236. Well worth a read through if you have the time. With both skiing or boarding what I am always drawn to first is good technique and then let the jumps and drops grow from there, that's what excites me. But in this 'Red Bull' era it appears good riding technique is far less important than your ability to chuck yourself off something. It's a pity because I believe the two can go hand in hand, it just seems that for the moment there is no one in the mainstream who wants to put the time in to develop that level of control in their riding. You can see it in most snowboarding video's now, they fast forward the boarding in between each 'feature' as if it's of little importance! Or worst still just edit it out. The discussion proved very interesting, with two camps developing, those that hanker after a more controlled form of skiing/ boarding and those that think straight lining a massive mountain is the pinnacle of technique and is the barometer to measure everything by. It also mirrors this discussion in reflecting that whilst modern equipment may make higher level riding easier for the many, it also restricts the ability to advance beyond that. Yes, you can go higher, faster, bigger etc. but you can't get the edge control of full camber ski/ board that you need to progress even further. Beckman Ag I really like your comments about the difference between just 'trying harder' and developing a better understanding and mastery of the underlying technique (and equipment required). For me it's a bit zen or 'wax on, wax off'. Effortless comes with both strength and mastery of the technique and that's where the hours of practice need to be put in. Hopefully snowboarding will start to develop in this was, as there are only so many ways you can throw yourself off a jump (not to deny there isn't skill in that too) but it will take a new face to introduce that to the mass market, a pro that values aesthetics as much as the 'wow' factor. Oh and getting over this obsession with rocker equipment, yes there is a time and place for it, but for **** sake not everywhere!

Saw this one a few days back. Impressive, though if you watch closely he's not really holding a clean edge, I'd say it's more like side slipping at 78mph. May be I'm just being picky?

I can't comment on the cracks, but do have to say that is a beautiful board, in both shape and artwork. Never seen one before, love it.

That's a real pleasure to watch Ryan. Thanks.

Thanks oldsnowboards.com, yes did mean Mr Sandman. Thanks to others for replies also. I'm returning to snowboarding after a few seasons of hard booting in the 90s, so needing to get up to speed with all the new equipment.

This question is slightly veering from the topic, but Groomer can you say why Joerg prefers the bale bindings for the pure boarding technique? I'm interested to understand what the advantages are. Thanks