Mike T Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Prior Fissile 172 with Burton Cartel bindings and Burton Driver X soft boots w/o the tongue stiffeners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmetroland Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Just had the Donek Hazelwood 200 out in 7" today. Mounted up with Catek FR2s. It's full camber and all float, plus it plows through chop like an icebreaker when things get tracked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icebiker Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 This is a timely question, since I've had the fortune of having two relatively recent powder days...one in VT (6") and another in CO a week later (approx 12" in the bowls)...but found I was having trouble getting enough flex in my rear boot to allow me to get my weight further back, so I'm looking for some advice. My "soft/bumpy/powder" set up is a Ride Yukon 172 with Race Plates and my Deeluxe 225s. Even with the "give" in the Race Plates compared to my SW SI's, and even with the soft flexing 225's and even with the 225's set to powder mode and upper buckle loosened, I find the hardboot set up a bit of a struggle when the snow is deep and/or I need to whip the tail around on toe-side. So, I tried going back to my Airwalk softboots and Torque 3-straps. The Airwalks are a low-cuff boot, so getting weight backward was not an issue, but the rest of the ride was horrible. After 4 years in hardboots I've become so used to the firm connection HB's have to the board I couldn't hold a good edge and felt like I was boarding on marbles the whole time. So, I was wondering a) if my softboot problems are tied to 20-year old boots and bindings or b) if I need to simply stick with the 225/Race Plate set up and adjust my technique. Would rather not invest in new SB's and SB bindings if I can help it, given the relative infrequency of powder. Seems like most on here have no problems with HB/plates in powder (best evidenced by PhilW's sweet video of heli-runs at Revelstoke) so if anyone's got any "HB-in-powder" tips, I'm all ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmetroland Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 +1 For a foot or more, my 24.5 waist 184 lib grocer(shalom) w/huge old skool powder tips, floats in bottomless and eats 10:30am 2 foot deep tracked out chop for breakfast If you're feeling guilty about this, I'd be happy to help satisfy the Grocer's powderlust. Of all of my snowboarding regrets, not buying one of those with that topsheet is right at the top of the list. Shalom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Guy... Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 "Powder" is a relative term this year, unless you were lucky enough to find yourself in New England... So let's call it "not groom" instead? :) For that, I mainly use a '97 Burton Supermodel 181. But lately, I've been adventuring off groom more and more with the Kessler alpine decks. Surprisingly, the 185 is quite capable and very easy to manage as long as its not bottomless pow. It's not too happy on chopped up concrete, but as long as there's at least some mashed potatoes, it settles right in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 This is a timely question, since I've had the fortune of having two relatively recent powder days...one in VT (6") and another in CO a week later (approx 12" in the bowls)...but found I was having trouble getting enough flex in my rear boot to allow me to get my weight further back, so I'm looking for some advice. My "soft/bumpy/powder" set up is a Ride Yukon 172 with Race Plates and my Deeluxe 225s. Even with the "give" in the Race Plates compared to my SW SI's, and even with the soft flexing 225's and even with the 225's set to powder mode and upper buckle loosened, I find the hardboot set up a bit of a struggle when the snow is deep and/or I need to whip the tail around on toe-side. So, I tried going back to my Airwalk softboots and Torque 3-straps. The Airwalks are a low-cuff boot, so getting weight backward was not an issue, but the rest of the ride was horrible. After 4 years in hardboots I've become so used to the firm connection HB's have to the board I couldn't hold a good edge and felt like I was boarding on marbles the whole time. So, I was wondering a) if my softboot problems are tied to 20-year old boots and bindings or b) if I need to simply stick with the 225/Race Plate set up and adjust my technique. Would rather not invest in new SB's and SB bindings if I can help it, given the relative infrequency of powder. Seems like most on here have no problems with HB/plates in powder (best evidenced by PhilW's sweet video of heli-runs at Revelstoke) so if anyone's got any "HB-in-powder" tips, I'm all ears. If you feel the urge to "transfer your weight back", your stance is probably not set right... You need to feel nicely balanced and relaxed on both feet. Maybe move the bindings a bit back on the inserts? Also, how are your angles and your lift/cant setup on the race plates, all flat? I would do big splay, rear foot slight overhang, front foot slight underhang, Burton 7deg cant under rear binding, some home made shims under front toe pad. Then carpet carving to make sure everything is nice and comfy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwavedave Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 So, I was wondering a) if my softboot problems are tied to 20-year old boots and bindings or b) if I need to simply stick with the 225/Race Plate set up and adjust my technique. Would rather not invest in new SB's and SB bindings if I can help it, given the relative infrequency of powder. Seems like most on here have no problems with HB/plates in powder (best evidenced by PhilW's sweet video of heli-runs at Revelstoke) so if anyone's got any "HB-in-powder" tips, I'm all ears. There is a big difference in the relative stiffness of "hard boots". I found the list below from an old thread helpful regarding the number codes for Raichle / Deeluxe boots. The 225's are stiffer than most, better for applying pressure to edges on hard snow. I found a used pair of 413's and they're way softer and flexy in all directions than any other hard boots I've had. SB series: Soft: 123 = 223 = 323 = 413 Medium: 124 = 224 = 324 = 423 = Lemans Stiff: 125 = 225 = 325 AF series: Stiff: AF600 = Susuka Very stiff: AF700 = Indy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Posted March 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) This is a timely question, since I've had the fortune of having two relatively recent powder days...one in VT (6") and another in CO a week later (approx 12" in the bowls)...but found I was having trouble getting enough flex in my rear boot to allow me to get my weight further back, so I'm looking for some advice. My "soft/bumpy/powder" set up is a Ride Yukon 172 with Race Plates and my Deeluxe 225s. Even with the "give" in the Race Plates compared to my SW SI's, and even with the soft flexing 225's and even with the 225's set to powder mode and upper buckle loosened, I find the hardboot set up a bit of a struggle when the snow is deep and/or I need to whip the tail around on toe-side. So, I tried going back to my Airwalk softboots and Torque 3-straps. The Airwalks are a low-cuff boot, so getting weight backward was not an issue, but the rest of the ride was horrible. After 4 years in hardboots I've become so used to the firm connection HB's have to the board I couldn't hold a good edge and felt like I was boarding on marbles the whole time. So, I was wondering a) if my softboot problems are tied to 20-year old boots and bindings or b) if I need to simply stick with the 225/Race Plate set up and adjust my technique. Would rather not invest in new SB's and SB bindings if I can help it, given the relative infrequency of powder. Seems like most on here have no problems with HB/plates in powder (best evidenced by PhilW's sweet video of heli-runs at Revelstoke) so if anyone's got any "HB-in-powder" tips, I'm all ears. I can't answer any hardboot questions as I am too much of a noob. But...I don't really think that soft set ups have taken much of a giant technology leap the last while. One thing I have done is to purchase some old "clicker" boots. They have a very stiff tongue to make up for the lack of highbacks. Take the bottom thing off the boot and they work fine a a stiff version of regular softies. Perhaps something like that will help you have more of a solid feel in softies. I don't ride them all the time though...mostly when I am riding the pow board on groomers.....(which I no longer do now that I have found carving). Just a thought. Probably some cheap ones on ebay every now and then. Edited March 14, 2015 by Duke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) That board on the far left next to the Sims looks like its ready for some softies but yes....I'd say your pic shows a distinct bias for hard boots. good story there, beautiful 10yr old board That's a 150cm arbor mystic pipe board, ie meant to hold an edge on an icy pipe wall & pump the transition. My wife bought it several yrs ago(she uses burton soft stepins, I have a set but never use them) but found it too stiff even for a big girl. It sat for a few yrs, tried to sell it to friend's wife who's 145# and a hard charger, too stiff. Finally this season I gave it a try on refrozen icepack w/scarpa AT boots and snopro plates and thought it would feel like a toy; was blown away by it's ability to hold my 220# a$$ in short slalom carves as well as picking my way around rocks and bare spots on a steep 4" thick ice "groomed" run I couldn't believe it's only 150cm the old Sims fakie was no slouch with a vert lam volkl core made in austria, but that arbor blows it away As to camber in pow, I bump the binders back and never have an issue, at least on longer boards. Edited March 14, 2015 by b0ardski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P06781 Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Tweener day Tanker 192 with td3s Powder day Tanker 200 with td3s used to Ride a nitro fury 176 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCrobar Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 So for days with say......5 plus inches/13 plus cm of pow that dumped the night before....do you guys ride a carve board? A pow board with hardboots? A pow board with soft boots set at soft boot angles?? A lot of great advice in this thread, so a +1 from me as well for what has been suggested. It was a poor powder season this year as well, but I did get a few good days in. My thought process for picking which powder board and which boots to use goes a bit like this: -When it's deep enough that I probably won't hit bottom on most of the turns, it's soft boots for the mobility (20, 30, 40 cm deep etc.) -When it's nice new powder day, but not quite as deep ( 5, 10 cm etc.), it's hard boots with soft plate bindings for a power-mobility balance as I will probably ride groom to get to the lift to get back to the pow. -Next I pick a sidecut radius, 8m, 10m, 12m (on the boards I have now, I need more:) based on trees vs more wide open terrain and mood. -For deep powder I have a powder specific board, I am not concerned about hardpack performance. -For not quite so deep (10cm, etc.) I like an all-mountain powder board that has both an alpine and powder heritage in the design. -In the conditions you describe, I had a lot of fun on my Pogo LongBoard 180 and a Swoard Dual 175. I would love to try the Tankers and the entire Prior powder line up! The Dual opens up EC on both hard and soft boots as well as great float in the pow. The Pogo is expensive, exotic, fun and loves hard boots, floating and carving ... I have a great wife that found this board for me:) -With Softboots and a Pow specific board I use traditional flat soft boot stance angles -With All-mountain/Pow boards and hard boots I back the stance off to the high 40's to the low 30's. -I don't ride in the PureBoarding Style, but I have tried their binding stance recommendations this year and have found it to be a very versatile for all mountain riding. The steep front foot feels good on the groom and the flatter back foot feels great in powder and when hitting nice fluffy moguls. This is biggest splay I have used and liked. Videos for Fun Pogo - Hard pack Pogo - Powder Cheers Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mase Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Used to be a case of "whatever ain't broke" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCrobar Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) Used to be a case of "whatever ain't broke" Maybe For me it's always been a case of just having FUN! It's fun riding any board in powder. It's fun visiting and riding with nice people who share your passion. It's fun learning from the nice people, so that you might even have more fun when you get back into the powder. If any parts of this process are not fun and it 'ain't broke' then there is nothing wrong with just riding either. That said, I am very happy that the many board builders continue to push this process, and that the many experienced riders take the time to share their thoughts, as both have resulted in more fun when out riding. Cheers Rob Edited March 15, 2015 by RCrobar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icebiker Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Thanks for the input guys. @ BlueB I'll try that. The Ride has a rather wide distribution of the inserts, even between the inner most holes, and I already have the front binding as far back as possible, so my only option is to move the rear binding back (thus widening my stance even more). But it's worth a shot. My angles on the Ride are 50/45 (vs 55/50 on my Donek), but I could go lower if need be since the Ride is pretty wide (26 cm). I already have a 7 deg Burton cant on the rear, but perhaps some inward cant on the front would help? @Dave: Interesting. I had assumed 225's were the softest available (though I realize the Raichles to which you refer are older models made pre-Deeluxe change). I rented a pair of Raichle's about 15 years ago in Switzerland (can't recall what #, but they were the first HB's I'd ever tried, and as I recall they were very comfy and rideable in the pow for someone who'd never tried them before). Going to be difficult to track some down in a 31, but I'll look around. I'd also been looking around for some mountaineering boots (like the Koflach's Damian Sanders used to ride), but again difficult to find in my size. @Duke: One thing I have seen is that current SB's are much higher up the shin than my 20 yr old Airwalks, similar to the shell height of HB's. As such, my current concern about not being able to flex my lower leg at the ankle while in HB's may persist in newer SB's. I had considered the clicker idea (or more recently the Kwicker that's been featured on these forums recently....recall issues notwithstanding). Will give this some more thought after I play around with BlueB's advice. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKcarver Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 @flatlander...ditto Rad Air Supertanker 200 with td-2s 45 degrees. Setback pushed all the way and switch the upz's to walk mode. Plenty of float with no fatigue whatsoever. You can get low and carve right through the tracked out crap where anyone with a smaller board gets tossed without feeling a thing....thank you full rocker... Back in the 90's at Squaw I got laughed at a lot with that Craig Kelly air 180 and the same setup but they couldn't keep up in the crud! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 If you can find the older UPZ all mountain boot with the red shell, those are noodles. Forget the model name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailman Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Old salomon 450 163 with x-bone carbon binding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breeseomatic Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 If you can find the older UPZ all mountain boot with the red shell, those are noodles. Forget the model name. UPZ ATB (All Terrain Boot) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Through the wanton burning of various fossil fuels, in places few get to ride, I've been the fortunate recipient of more powder days than hard snow ones for the last few years. Before my run of exceptional opportunity, I rode resorts for as long as I've snowboarded, with a handful of years in the 90's dedicated to hardboots. In getting so much pow, I've been free to experiment, and waste days sucking. Days that you might not otherwise throw away like that. What I learned was how little I needed to support edging. I saw the hardboots' greatest advantage as being the ability to unflinchingly hold edge angle, while the board is straining to be flat on the snow. Powder, by definition, doesn't require that leverage to maintain a banked attitude. The snow does that for you, by supporting the base completely. Because I felt I didn't need the support of hardboots, I switched to lace ups (modern lace-ups... No old tech). That "lack" of support then offered fine ankle movement, freeing up all kinds of subtle steering options, where any base vs. snow attitude could be made with the smallest flex of the feet. That's a plug for softboots. That's also a plug for riding completely bindingless in gravy conditions. As I'm sure you're getting from this thread, the most important factor, beyond what we wear on our feet, or the angles we mount, is board shape, The "3D" nature of pow riding (both on it, and under it) requires profile tricks that make regular alpine boards a "back seat" proposition. For great success, the boot is softer, along with the binding, the boards nose is wider, and might have early rise. Tails should have taper and, depending on the turn being open or closed, can be longer or shorter, or just right. As it happens, those same characteristics seem to make the best pow boards, period. The biggest difference between soft and hardboot powder riding will be overall length, to ultimately control the savage power of the rigid boot. The shredders on here like starting lengths in the 170's... Numbers normal resort boards tend to end at. Edited March 15, 2015 by Rob Stevens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCrobar Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Hi Rob As I'm sure you're getting from this thread, the most important factor, beyond what we wear on our feet, or the angles we mount, is board shape The video link I have attached shows a couple board builders/designers working on powder boards. One guy is Japanese, the other guy is from Vermont; they show riding in both Japan and Vermont. The video highlights how the board shape is so important in powder. The video has beautiful snow conditions and riding. Because I felt I didn't need the support of hardboots, I switched to lace ups (modern lace-ups... No old tech). That "lack" of support then offered fine ankle movement, freeing up all kinds of subtle steering options, where any base vs. snow attitude could be made with the smallest flex of the feet. I don't think I am ready to give up my bindings just yet, but these highback-less bindings are very interesting in the mobility they could provide in deeper powder. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 In the mid-90's, I went to Fernie B.C. for a contest called the "Fernie Frenzy". On the way up the lift for Saturday's GS race, we had a good view of the slope the comp would be held on. The gates weren't up yet, but it was groomed wall-to-wall and looking prime. I started visualizing turns around the same time another rider dropped into the pitch, and began laying wide, perfect arcs with effortless style. My admiration was mixed with a little hesitation, as I then became worried that this guy was going to beat me in the race... I hadn't seen anyone do, in the third person, what I felt myself doing, in the first. I'm pretty sure that this was you, RCrobar. Much respect. The Snow Craft series is great. Jesse and Lukas, who have come out to visit our "No tell creek" location, taking part in our lost pal's memorial, bring a story-tellers touch to a genre that's been lost to an over-amped style of presentation for years. They're highlighting a "new" movement in snowboarding, based on the oldest movement. Simply turning. It's an eye-opener to hear from riders whose sole goal is the pursuit of a series of "perfect" turns. The Japanese culture has a way of looking at pure distillations of certain acts... Like raking a lawn for example, where they'll find the reward in symmetry and economy of motion. Minimum movement for maximum result... That sort of vibe. This is something it's easy for people like us to have an affinity for. Everyone here likes to turn and that, at its core, is why we snowboard and keyboard on this site. In riding powder, bindingless for awhile now, I've come to appreciate how little it takes, physically, to manipulate the platform. Surprisingly, it's the skills I developed carving in hardboots that set me up best for making the most of a pow day. The movements are so similar, yet supported by the equipment in radically different ways. The same moves, made with powder-like ease, by the firm connection between plastic boots and metal bindings, mimicing the whole-board support of deep snow. New / old bindings, like the ones you posted a pic of, are catching on again. You'll see a Now version which offers a similar feel. I have ridden these with my Sorel Caribou's... The same boots I NoBoard - powsurf in. The sensation is very close... Of almost infinite ankle movement, allowing a stillness through the turn that's unmatched. Truthfully, the wrecks I've had bindingless are forcing me into a future where these highbackless binders will be the norm for me on deeper days. It's getting less and less possible for me to simply ride away from the destruction of a high-speed, bindingless crash, that would never have happened if I could have just "lifted" the board to a better line. To the OP: If you have the means, I highly recommend trying whatever you can get your hands on, from the true vein of powder boards. Again, your chosen interface is less important. I have to promote "soft" contact, just from my own, personal experience, so far as "stiffness" is concerned as the no. 2 consideration, while lastly, binding angles can be fun set just about anywhere. Honestly, i haven't ridden high-binder-angle pow in ages, but remember it being exceedingly rad. As an aside, I would love to perform an experiment one day, where I bring die-hard hardbooters to the cat-board op I'm involved with, to ride bindingless. With respect to angles, my feet migrate to the low single-digits front and rear when they're not attached and I wonder if this woud be the case for most people, regardless of their preferences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Dahl Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Rob, good posts! The board shape is so critical in deep pow riding, the interface should be comfortable-no distraction to the experience. If I ever get a true pow day I can throw away, as it were, I plan on trying my leather mountaineering boots in a high back less binding. My thoughts on where I will end up with foot angle-wise, will be more high angle front foot and fairly low angle on the back. The back foot gives power to fast turns and that is just where my front foot ends up. I kinda see a rear foot 0-10 ish and 40 or more on the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icebiker Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 The video link I have attached shows a couple board builders/designers working on powder boards. One guy is Japanese, the other guy is from Vermont; they show riding in both Japan and Vermont. The video highlights how the board shape is so important in powder. The video has beautiful snow conditions and riding. Nice! Reminds of Tom Sims' run in the James Bond movie way back....only better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 As an aside, I would love to perform an experiment one day, where I bring die-hard hardbooters to the cat-board op I'm involved with, to ride bindingless. Let me know when I should show up! I haven't ridden deep pow (don't touch bottom) for almost two decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCrobar Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Hi Rob Man, your kind words this morning rattled me a bit! I spend a lot of time in Fernie from the mid 80's to the mid 90's, my father in law had a home on the hill there. There was a small group of very early board/carvers there at that time, so the chances it was me are pretty good. We used to call Fernie the best kept secret in North America, secret is out now:) One of the riders in our group of friends was a local legend named Gerry George, a very good friend and super smooth ripper, it could have been him as well. Each season there will be a day, a run or just a quick set of turns that will burn into your mind forever. I have a few of these turns in the minds eye, from over 30 years ago in Fernie, that make me feel good to this day. The video with the Japanese rider/shapers has been on mind for quite sometime now. The shape of these new-old boards and the beautiful vibe the riders and builders give off spark memories of the same early vibe boarding had. One memory of Fernie is dropping into Boomerang Ridge with just and unreal amount of snow, with great friends, riding a 1984 Burton Performer; some of the best days of my life. Is there anything better in life than the simple pleasure of riding with friends? This picture is from the early days in Fernie I'm the guy second from the left, Gerry is third from the left ... a lot of fun was had by all. Thank you for the kind words and your thoughtful posts. Cheers from Rob#2 Edited March 16, 2015 by RCrobar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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